Bitcoin - a decentralised digital currency

2,256 posts in this topic

16 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Problem with that analysis is that 80% of the gold is mined for industrial and jewelery purposes, so the one that goes into reserves is 5x less than bitcoin consumption. Better yet, one day those reserves can be used for other purposes.

Ah jewellery, just what every rich person needs to make society function

You told us that currencies were backed by these gold reserves, are you now saying currencies have no intrinsic value or, at least, much less than what is promised?

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1 hour ago, bennetn said:

Ah jewellery, just what every rich person needs to make society function

Same functionality as any luxury good. Most of Europe's economy relies on luxury goods and services, saying it's bad is pure ignorance.

 

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You told us that currencies were backed by these gold reserves, are you now saying currencies have no intrinsic value or, at least, much less than what is promised?

I'm saying that if Gold loses position as a holder of value, we can still use it for other purposes. IMO we don't need gold as a holder of value, the same way we don't need Bitcoin. Non-gold FOREX reserves are much better.

Currencies are backed by governments. Vast majority of countries does not hold enough gold to back their currencies. Of course US, Portugal, Venezuela, Germany and a few others disagree.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

Same functionality as any luxury good. Most of Europe's economy relies on luxury goods and services, saying it's bad is pure ignorance.

 

 

 

You are correct to say Europe's economy relies on services but which sector are you putting Jewellery?  It's not it's own sector and services covers anything from consulting to waste disposal. 

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4 minutes ago, bennetn said:

 

You are correct to say Europe's economy relies on services but which sector are you putting Jewellery?  It's not it's own sector and services covers anything from consulting to waste disposal. 

I didn't say services. I said luxury goods and services!

Europe does manufacture a lot of luxury goods. From expensive wine to luxury yachts. Cars, jewelery, cloths, footwear, bags, all. The most expensive shoes in the world (average price per pair) are manufactured in Portugal and italy. It's a huge economy.

As an example, Portugal has a volume of 1000M€ per year in Jewellery. That employs 900 companies on manufacturing and design.

So the value of gold is assured even if it is not used as a holder of value.

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3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

I didn't say services. I said luxury goods and services!

Europe does manufacture a lot of luxury goods. From expensive wine to luxury yachts. Cars, jewelery, cloths, footwear, bags, all. The most expensive shoes in the world (average price per pair) are manufactured in Portugal and italy. It's a huge economy.

As an example, Portugal has a volume of 1000M€ per year in Jewellery. That employs 900 companies on manufacturing and design.

So the value of gold is assured even if it is not used as a holder of value.

 

I know, I asked what sector jewellery is in as there is no trade sector for specifically luxury goods and specifically gold.  You've stated gold "is assured" based on some unsubstantiated claim that .004% of Portugal's GDP is related directly to gold.  Some statement that!

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Gold jewelry is not always a luxury good. Traditionally In different cultures, people collect gold jewelry just like other cultures would save their money in a bank or invest it in other things. They may sell a few pieces if they need the money or hand it down to their children as inheritance.

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4 hours ago, bennetn said:

are you now saying currencies have no intrinsic value or, at least, much less than what is promised?

 

They don't in and of themselves. No one can trade in an ounce of gold at a bank anymore with just 'a promise to the bearer'. The difference is the states that stand behind them. No one cares about Uzbek Soms or Angolan Kwanzas for a reason. 

 

2 hours ago, bennetn said:

I know, I asked what sector jewellery is in as there is no trade sector for specifically luxury goods and specifically gold.  You've stated gold "is assured" based on some unsubstantiated claim that .004% of Portugal's GDP is related directly to gold.  Some statement that!

 

Clearly that was just one example on account Mike being Portuguese. Gold has a value in and of itself, but the point is that even then we mostly don't bother attaching its value to currency anymore (for several good reasons). Bitcoin doesn't have any value in and of itself; just the plain fact. It could perhaps in some way in the future, but it doesn't. 

 

You stated earlier that all the naysayers was just crying sour grapes, but honestly, the only one here who seems to personally upset is you. Maybe just chill a bit, and accept that not everyone is into bitcoin. It's no big deal. I don't think any skeptics here are as yet convinced by your arguments. 

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No, it was just another example of someone trying to twist a version of their facts using straw man arguments to try and "win" rather than discuss real facts.  I'll rebut that kind of poster regardless of the subject.  

 

Bit like tattoos this subject...people without them seem to have a lot of worthless opinions about people who do have them

 

Edit: to add clarity, I don't own bitcoin.

 

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2 hours ago, alderhill said:

Bitcoin doesn't have any value in and of itself;

 

It does as a form of payment.  It's cheaper, more secure and portable than paying for a large purchase with a suitcase of cash.  American Express cards don't have value in and of themselves.  AXP has a fluctuating value as do interest rates.

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Bitcoin Welcomes Tesla, Mastercard, BNY Mellon, Venmo To The Cryptocurrency Party

 

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Bitcoin adoption is always noteworthy because it shows that these technological improvements to our financial system are finally being understood and desired.

 

What makes this week’s news even more exciting is that we are seeing a major shift away from traditional finance writing off the cryptocurrency industry (and the technology behind it) as only for cyberpunks or money launderers. This is a narrative that the industry has worked to shake for a decade.

 

Now, we are seeing that companies like Tesla want bitcoin on their balance sheet and BNY Mellon, Mastercard and PayPal/Venmo see the customer demand high enough to meet it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/haileylennon/2021/02/12/bitcoin-welcomes-tesla-mastercard-bny-mellon-venmo-to-the-cryptocurrency-party/

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On 11/02/2021, 10:59:19, bennetn said:

Oh dear, you're actually making a case for digital currencies

You use a single country using traditional currency methods to compare a global digitial currency that exists primarily because of practises such as scrapping bank notes or liquidating banks or taking ownership of your money.

Hardly an insight that a government issued currency being scrapped by that government makes it worthless is it?  So why use fiat at all then if there is no trust?  A digital currency that you own, cannot be taken from you is safer surely?

 

 

Fiat is convenient, and the ability to pay or borrow in reserve currencies provides the liquidity needed for the international financial system.    There is a huge infrastructure around major currencies, swaps, bonds, interest rate derivatives

 

I have never traded crypto and currently have no interest in doing so or any reason to think it should be illegal.   I would approach it like trading "paper" gold, i.e. it is just another trade.    If you make money trading it, that's great.  

 

Christine Lagarde, Janet Yellen, and others who have influence and whose words are uttered for effect rather than substance have raised concerns, which in my opinion are exaggerated.    But whether they are correct or not, is less important than what their actions will be.  My opinion is that they are likely telegraphing future policy and that should be incorporated into the risk assessment of the trade.

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I wonder if all this philosophising and moralising is really relevant. Investors are honestly interested in only one thing. The ROI. This is what investment advisors are paid for: (Much too much in my opinion as they make too many mistakes).

When something like Bitcoin comes along, they have no idea what to do as it flaunts all the parameters they hold dear. No asset value, no track record, nothing at all to recommend it. The fact that it's increasing in value in leaps and bounds is something they would prefer to ignore.

I had a dabble in it a couple of years ago and made a few hundred Euros. I then came out because of the reasons above. Recently, it has started to rocket upwards and I decided to invest again, Since then, I've made double my money (which is REALLY nice in this period of 0 interest rates) and feel that I'm letting myself and my family down by not jumping onto this bandwagen,

 

I'm also quite aware that what goes up, must come down, and watch the rates closely every day.

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On 12.2.2021, 16:30:05, catjones said:

 

It does as a form of payment.  It's cheaper, more secure and portable than paying for a large purchase with a suitcase of cash.  American Express cards don't have value in and of themselves.  AXP has a fluctuating value as do interest rates.

Wrong, wrong and wrong!

It's expensive, a single transaction is currently costing $25.

More secure? Been stolen all the time, if you lose the password, you lose it. If you die, nobody can claim it! Not even mentioning the 51% attack possibility, which has already occurred!

Portable? Same as a bank account!

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50 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Wrong, wrong and wrong!

It's expensive, a single transaction is currently costing $25.

More secure? Been stolen all the time, if you lose the password, you lose it. If you die, nobody can claim it! Not even mentioning the 51% attack possibility, which has already occurred!

Portable? Same as a bank account!

You just can't help yourself.  

Absolute rubbish being written by you again.

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23 minutes ago, bennetn said:

You just can't help yourself.  

Absolute rubbish being written by you again.

Please use arguments.

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Why?  Each of your "arguments" have been debunked many times already in this thread.

Coming back and repeating them is spam, not debate.

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23 minutes ago, bennetn said:

Why?  Each of your "arguments" have been debunked many times already in this thread.

Coming back and repeating them is spam, not debate.

Are you actually denying that a Bitcoin transaction is more expensive than a bank transaction? Please "debunk" that.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

Wrong, wrong and wrong!

It's expensive, a single transaction is currently costing $25.

More secure? Been stolen all the time, if you lose the password, you lose it. If you die, nobody can claim it! Not even mentioning the 51% attack possibility, which has already occurred!

Portable? Same as a bank account!

 

I guess you sold your Bitcoin too early and are now in emotional pain, which is clouding your judgement (or maybe you are a no-coiner, in which case, it's not too late to expose yourself to revolutionary tech and take a mall position) 

 

Bitcoin is not expensive for transfers.  Try sending hundreds of thousands (or millions) to another country using a bank account.  $25 for this is amazing.  It might not make sense to send small amounts however, but there are other cryptos that work better for this.

 

Bitcoin is only as secure as your own security.  If you know what you are doing, the chances of it being stolen are zero.  If you dont store you private keys properly , then yes, you could compromise your account.  If you are worried about being hit by a bus, then there are procedures for passing on crypto to others with a few lines of code.

 

51% would be ridiculously expensive - I would be amazed if anyone other than a state actor could carry this out. (also not sure where u are getting your info from, but BTC network has never been compromised in 51% attack).  Even if a 51% was carried out, then the next chain (Ethereum, most likely), would take over the place of number 1 crypto. You can't kill crypto at this point.  

 

Portable - it is much more portable than a bank account.  While you can carry a bank account across borders, there will be questions asked.  e.g. Chinese businessman wants to escape the country with  millions - they cannot - their account will blocked to prevent capital flight.  BTC fixes this.

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7 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Are you actually denying that a Bitcoin transaction is more expensive than a bank transaction? Please "debunk" that.

Yes, in many many many cases it is.  Google it.

I'm not playing your game.

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12 minutes ago, Sroka said:

Bitcoin is not expensive for transfers.  Try sending hundreds of thousands (or millions) to another country using a bank account.  $25 for this is amazing.  It might not make sense to send small amounts however, but there are other cryptos that work better for this.

Ah, yes, because that's the majority of my bank transfers...  BTW, SEPA transfer cannot cost more than a local transfer, which for most people this means it's free.

Bitcoin IS FUCKING EXPENSIVE. Worst, the more it's used, the more expensive it gets, contrary to normal market common sense.

 

 

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Bitcoin is only as secure as your own security.  If you know what you are doing, the chances of it being stolen are zero.  If you dont store you private keys properly , then yes, you could compromise your account.  If you are worried about being hit by a bus, then there are procedures for passing on crypto to others with a few lines of code.

Right, perfect for the average Joe.

 

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51% would be ridiculously expensive - I would be amazed if anyone other than a state actor could carry this out. (also not sure where u are getting your info from, but BTC network has never been compromised in 51% attack).  Even if a 51% was carried out, then the next chain (Ethereum, most likely), would take over the place of number 1 crypto. You can't kill crypto at this point.  

FALSE! It has already be done before for many crypto. By criminals, and they gained a lot with it. Ethereum also suffered.

Not only that, the US government could use its computational power to render Bitcoin useless, in case of a full ban.

 

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Krypton and Shift, two blockchains based on ethereum, suffered 51% attacks in August 2016.

 

In May of 2018, Bitcoin Gold, at the time the 26th-largest cryptocurrency, suffered a 51% attack. The malicious actor or actors controlled a vast amount of Bitcoin Gold's hash power, such that even with Bitcoin Gold repeatedly attempting to raise the exchange thresholds, the attackers were able to double-spend for several days, eventually stealing more than $18 million worth of Bitcoin Gold.

 

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Portable - it is much more portable than a bank account.  While you can carry a bank account across borders, there will be questions asked.  e.g. Chinese businessman wants to escape the country with  millions - they cannot - their account will blocked to prevent capital flight.  BTC fixes this.

And this is good?

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