Bitcoin - a decentralised digital currency

2,297 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Banning Bitcoin can easily be done legally. Just forbid any company or individual from accepting it as a means of payment and convertion to local currency. There! Done!

No way to pay for groceries, online shopping, etc.

No need to forbid owning it. No need to control transactions between users. Just make it 90% useless. Rats will sell it immediately, value will drop like crazy, then people abandon it as it is a terrible holder of value. It will also be useless for stuff like ransomware, as companies will not be allowed to buy it.

Worldwide?  All crypto? 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, bennetn said:

Worldwide?  All crypto? 

No need. Works fine just within a big block, like US or Europe. If you trade in another country, you are liable for evasion in your home country. When you attempt to transfer (real) money back, the bank will report you.

You crypto fanatics will be very ashamed when it's shown how easy it is to block it. You think technology allows you to circunvent government, but you forget that government does not need to block you completely, just make your life impractical. And even if you do find a cumbersome method, the average joe won't do it.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

haha yeah, because offshore tax evasion doesn't currently exist.  Money laundering using banks doesn't currently exist.  The US and Europe doesn't account for even a quarter of the transactions.

IF you first solved all the criminal issues related to the traditional banking and money then you may have a chance to then manage crypto, neither of which will happen.

Not a chance, as long as you have an exit  available to fiat (not that you should need it) then you have no chance of banning it.

They can't even block streaming and yet you think they can block all crypto's?  What are they going to block?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, bennetn said:

haha yeah, because offshore tax evasion doesn't currently exist.  Money laundering using banks doesn't currently exist.  The US and Europe doesn't account for even a quarter of the transactions.

IF you first solved all the criminal issues related to the traditional banking and money then you may have a chance to then manage crypto, neither of which will happen.

Not a chance, as long as you have an exit  available to fiat (not that you should need it) then you have no chance of banning it.

They can't even block streaming and yet you think they can block all crypto's?  What are they going to block?

Let's go for simple example:

- your salary is paid in Euros. There is a ban, meaning you cannot convert Euros to Bitcoin and vice versa in a bank or a broker. Also shops don't accept bitcoin. Somehow you have bitcoins, just to make it easier for you. How do you pay for groceries with it? Simple everday situation.

 

And since we are at it, how do you solve the Bitcoin scalability problem? Right now Bitcoin can only process 5 payments per second!!!

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Let's go for simple example:

- your salary is paid in Euros. There is a ban, meaning you cannot convert Euros to Bitcoin and vice versa in a bank or a broker. Also shops don't accept bitcoin. Somehow you have bitcoins, just to make it easier for you. How do you pay for groceries with it? Simple everday situation.

 

And since we are at it, how do you solve the Bitcoin scalability problem? Right now Bitcoin can only process 5 payments per second!!!

 

I buy privately, i transfer my money to a location where it is not banned, I have someone else buy it..etc etc etc  and that's before the clever people get involved.  It's like you think you've found some sort of hole in the crypto world that no one else has seen  :rolleyes: 

 

What do you do about crypto in use ie XRP/Ripple which is in use by big banks or are you only "banning" bitcoin.

 

There is a reason I keep asking "all cryptos?"...people are not using Bitcoin for purchases, there's hundreds of alternatives that are quicker or better in it's own instance.  

 

What about the 2 billion people who don't have a bank account?  What's you're proposal to allow, for example an indonesian co-op, to be able to receive funds in the correct currency when they don't have a bank or access to one?

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, bennetn said:

 

I buy privately,

How?

23 hours ago, bennetn said:

i transfer my money to a location where it is not banned, I have someone else buy it..etc etc etc  and that's before the clever people get involved.  It's like you think you've found some sort of hole in the crypto world that no one else has seen  :rolleyes: 

How do you get the money back? Cross-border transfers are monitored.

 

23 hours ago, bennetn said:

 

What do you do about crypto in use ie XRP/Ripple which is in use by big banks or are you only "banning" bitcoin.

 

There is a reason I keep asking "all cryptos?"...people are not using Bitcoin for purchases, there's hundreds of alternatives that are quicker or better in it's own instance.  

Sure, let's kill Bitcoin and seriously talk about good cryptocurrencies. But first let's kill Bitcoin, it's bad in all points.

 

23 hours ago, bennetn said:

What about the 2 billion people who don't have a bank account?  What's you're proposal to allow, for example an indonesian co-op, to be able to receive funds in the correct currency when they don't have a bank or access to one?

The same way people have been doing for centuries. What problem are you trying to solve? Why would Bitcoin, a much more complicated mechanism, solve something that already works?

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do research.  Anyone can buy Bitcoin of everyone, tons of sites.

The same way I got it there. Not sure why I would ever need to.

Nope.  Let's not all decide your definition of good and bad is the only definition.

"Same way people have been doing for centuries" - I'll try not to laugh  Bitcoin, more complicated? Than what?  

 

These are the exact reasons crypto currencies exist. we're beholden to a broken system of traditional national banking that benefits only the wealthy.

My money, I'll decide what to do with it and where I do that.

 

The current system is corrupt, unfair, expensive - long gone are the days when banking was trusted, which was the basis for traditional banking.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, bennetn said:

Do research.  Anyone can buy Bitcoin of everyone, tons of sites.

I meant in the scenario where it is banned.

 

16 minutes ago, bennetn said:

These are the exact reasons crypto currencies exist. we're beholden to a broken system of traditional national banking that benefits only the wealthy.

My money, I'll decide what to do with it and where I do that.

And here lies the problem: Bitcoin is a ultra-liberal utopia tool. It's the same argument from anti-vaxxers, my body, I'll decide. But this is the same as with vaccination issue, it's not so simple. In the case of anti-vaxxer argument, no, it's not about personal decision because of herd immunity. And in this case, if you managed to remove monetary control from the state this would not be a good thing. Finantial crisis would last much more. My view is that the state MUST have regulatory powers. You believe in some wild west utopia.

 

16 minutes ago, bennetn said:

 

The current system is corrupt, unfair, expensive - long gone are the days when banking was trusted, which was the basis for traditional banking.

 

Solve it by forcing a separation between traditional and investment banking. No need for Bitcoin. Also Bitcoin won't help there.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You suggested it can be banned, it patently cannot be "banned" as it's available globally - unless you have another idea millions of others have not seen how to ban crypto.

 

Not entering in a debate again whether it's "good" or "bad", we've been there and I've only seen ignorance.  You won't even accept current banking is corrupt.

 

You can not use it if you wish, I can if I wish but I don't see how it can be stopped.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, bennetn said:

You suggested it can be banned, it patently cannot be "banned" as it's available globally - unless you have another idea millions of others have not seen how to ban crypto.

You diverted the question. Let's go back. Assume it is legally banned, so banks, stores and exchanges don't accept conversion between cash and Bitcoin.

Let's also assume you kept some before it got banned, to make it easier for you.

How do you pay for your groceries with it? Simple question.

 

 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was in India when they banned the old banknotes and introduced the Modi dollars. Dec 2017

 

I had Rps 1000, and my girlfriend has Rps 1500 in old currency. No shop or restaurant would accept them. Not even at half value. Probably because the business had already changed their currency and couldn't change anymore.

 

It took 2 hours in a bank to get them changed to new currency. 

You also joined any queue for an ATM because that meant it actually had notes, and preferred to spend Rs500 for lunch in a place that took credit cards, than R150 if they took cash.

 

So I gotta agree with @MikeMelga. If the governments ban a form of currency, it becomes worthless.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh dear, you're actually making a case for digital currencies

You use a single country using traditional currency methods to compare a global digitial currency that exists primarily because of practises such as scrapping bank notes or liquidating banks or taking ownership of your money.

Hardly an insight that a government issued currency being scrapped by that government makes it worthless is it?  So why use fiat at all then if there is no trust?  A digital currency that you own, cannot be taken from you is safer surely?

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

And here lies the problem: Bitcoin is a ultra-liberal utopia tool. It's the same argument from anti-vaxxers, my body, I'll decide. But this is the same as with vaccination issue, it's not so simple. In the case of anti-vaxxer argument, no, it's not about personal decision because of herd immunity. And in this case, if you managed to remove monetary control from the state this would not be a good thing. Finantial crisis would last much more. My view is that the state MUST have regulatory powers. You believe in some wild west utopia.

You exaggerate here. The Bundesbank views Bitcoin as a commodity, so it is. It will never replace fiat currencies, but will eventually here forever as a niche investment. It makes no sense to ban it: as soon as everyone gets the salaries in fiat currencies, and the shops are obliged by law to accept it, it makes no danger for the central bank to manage financial crises.

 

Basically, the euro was for Greece the same as Bitcoin. If the Greek government was allowed to temporarily get back drachma while keeping the euro as legal tender, too, they would have managed the crisis much better and faster. 

 

P.S. I trust my bank/the government more than myself. I don't like the idea of forgetting the password and losing access to all life savings. No. 

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

The Bundesbank views Bitcoin as a commodity, so it is. It will never replace fiat currencies, but will eventually here forever as a niche investment.

 

Investment in what? It provides nothing!

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aw c'mon, Mike. You're an investor - you just don't choose to invest in Bitcoin. Neither do I.

 

I still don't understand much about Bitcoin - how you buy it, how you sell it, etc. I do have friends who have made well over € 100k on it, though. That's in real money after they sold some. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Investment in what? It provides nothing!

 

In the same way people collect baseball cards or Star Wars toys. It has the promise of "real value" hence the current speculation bubble. It is obviously more popular with techbros, like Musk, so it has more serious whiff to it than baseball cards. You can trade it back and forth for real money like baseball cards. Some places will even let you give them baseball cards for their goods/services. (Though as pointed out, it's easy enough to forbid that. I doubt the US or EU will be open to legitimizing Bitcoin anytime soon and the major Asian economies sure as heck will not.)

 

From what I've read, most state or central banks view it suspiciously (rightfully so). Although circumventing state control of currency has appeal, I'm also not too sold (yet) on the long-term future of bitcoin itself. Crypto in general, sure. And how you prevent mafia, terrorists, money launders, tax cheats, pedophiles, drug smugglers or the Ayatollahs, Kim Jongs, Jinpings and African dictators of the world from benefiting. As much as 40% of bitcoin trading is for illegal guns, drugs and pedos and the like.

 

It was reported recently that bitmining uses more energy than the entire country of Argentina, for what that's worth, not that environmental concerns are any matter. 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one is forcing anyone to use crypto either as a currency, commodity or investment - your choice.  Seems the most rabid are those who probably have traditional investments who feel aggrieved that the new boy on the block is making others a lot more money.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now