Bitcoin - a decentralised digital currency

2,182 posts in this topic

There are alt and shit-coins with interesting concepts.  For example Safemoon punishes trading very hardly, when you sell you will be punished with a 10% fee, half of that fee will be burn and the other half distributed among the holders.   Who would buy something like that you say? Their market cap is around $3.5 billion.

 

Then there is the use of the underlaying technology, plenty of coins are trying to find niche applications, a random example, some are implementing tracing during manufacturing processes, so when you buy and electronic item, or a car, or food in the supermarket, there is trace of every element that was part of the production of the item and there is trace of the whole manufacturing process.    If this will succeed or not I am not sure, it is too early and everyone is trying to find its space.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

In what sense?

 

Nobody believed in Apple in the 80s, apart from a few die-hard fans. Especially when it was taken over by old-fashioned MBA-type managers in a suit.

It even went close to bankruptcy at one point in the early 90s.

It risked ending up like Amiga.

 

Now it's the company with the largest market capitalization. But to get there it had to go through many years of pain and doubts.

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45 minutes ago, MadManEarle said:

 

I guess I don't understand your criticism of Bitcoin, then. You just don't like it because. . . . it doesn't allow for arbitrary wealth redistribution? Which mechanism would you prefer that would reduce the degree of manipulation? Or are you suggesting that manipulation is a binary option?

 

Ascribing unlimited power to any government is a weird stance to take as well. Can you explain more how you believe governments can act against Bitcoin transactions? Which purposes do you think are naive for Bitcoin to pursue?

 

Why are you bringing up whether you own it or not? I am just saying nobody can use force on you to own it, unlike fiat currencies which are enforced by police/military action if you don't use it.

 

I misread your last paragraph, an apology for that...

 

I don't ascribe unlimited power to any government, but they indeed have great ones and the experience necessary to enforce them in different and creative ways. How's this news for anyone on this planet? They don't have to bother themselves with technologic measures to control your transactions, which they can if they're extremely interested and motivated to do so, they can just tax you to death.

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If they tax people to death that will encourage to keep the capital hidden.  I don't think that would be the right approach.

 

I mentioned this analogy before, but here it is again, the Internet is "regulated", but it is really regulated?   I think it will be the same with cryptos, there will be some regulation but it will be impossible to have it under control.   

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18 hours ago, gdc said:

 

I misread your last paragraph, an apology for that...

 

I don't ascribe unlimited power to any government, but they indeed have great ones and the experience necessary to enforce them in different and creative ways. How's this news for anyone on this planet? They don't have to bother themselves with technologic measures to control your transactions, which they can if they're extremely interested and motivated to do so, they can just tax you to death.

 

Sorry, but you're not answering any of the questions I asked. I'm trying to understand your position, but you're just saying that governments are going to do "something" that will be the downfall of Bitcoin.That is impossible. How are they going to tax something that they have no control over?

 

As long as people have ways to talk to each other, Bitcoin can continue.

 

So again:

 

Quote

I guess I don't understand your criticism of Bitcoin, then. You just don't like it because. . . . it doesn't allow for arbitrary wealth redistribution? Which mechanism would you prefer that would reduce the degree of manipulation? Or are you suggesting that manipulation is a binary option?

Quote

Can you explain more how you believe governments can act against Bitcoin transactions? Which purposes do you think are naive for Bitcoin to pursue?

 

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I don't read everything on this thread but I haven't seen anyone blaming China's new crypto regulations in the recent Bitcoin tumble. Forgive me if it has been mentioned.

 

Quote

 

Chinese regulators tightened up crypto regulation this week. Regulatory bodies issued a joint statement yesterday that banned China's financial institutions from offering any crypto-related services. They warned that cryptocurrencies are not "real currencies," and so cannot be used in the market.

The news was a big blow to cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, and prices plummeted on the news.

 

the rest

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3 hours ago, MadManEarle said:

 governments are going to do "something" that will be the downfall of Bitcoin.That is impossible. How are they going to tax something that they have no control over?

As long as people have ways to talk to each other, Bitcoin can continue.

 


Just hypothetically, lets say next week Monday - Fed, EZB, BoE, BoJ and some other big Reserve Banks send a note to all Financial participants that "Handling with any currencies other than backed by a Sovereign state is not allowed for any Banks, Merchants, or Financial institutions". Many will have Bitcoins in the millions but they can't trade it to Evil Dollar/Euro anymore.What you think will happen ? Cryptos are dead by Monday evening I would say.'

That was only hypothetical, but China and India seem to be in that path. USA and EU still don't see Cryptos as a direct competitor to USD or EURO. If that happen someday I see no reason for them not to go after cryptos. In no scenario you can make USA or EU through away their own Fiat currencies and take Bitcoin, which is the argument many Bitcoin proponents do, wont EVER happen.
Dont understand me wrong, I find current Fed and EZB money printing extremely crtical. But I dont see bitcoin as the answer.

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Because making money laundering illegal stopped people from money laundering?

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3 hours ago, MadManEarle said:

 

Sorry, but you're not answering any of the questions I asked. I'm trying to understand your position, but you're just saying that governments are going to do "something" that will be the downfall of Bitcoin.That is impossible. How are they going to tax something that they have no control over?

 

As long as people have ways to talk to each other, Bitcoin can continue.

 

Of course they can. Taxing it would be hard, so the most likely outcome is a partial ban. They don't need complete control, they just have to make it incredibly hard to use, which is easy to achieve. Just forbid companies from accepting it as payment or holding it. Forbid transaction between FIAT and crypto. That's it. Of course some nerds and some criminals can go around, but you only need to cover 90% of the cases to render it useless.

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17 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Because making money laundering illegal stopped people from money laundering?


Because making it illegal and tracable will scare away 98% "Get rich or die trying" investors, the current Trillion Dollar market cap will schrink to a bare nothing in some days or weeks. And who is gonna run the "Super" Network then ? If the states make drugs or Gold illegal there will be still lots of people using it cause their real values some people gives them. Who will give a Billion dollar for a password which you cant use anywhere easily ?  

The states can very easily destroy Cryptos, if they want.

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You only need a couple of countries to accept FIAT conversions.  Just like we have now a gazillion of fiscal paradises that allow people to hide their assets.

 

Which super network?   The blockchains are run by the people themselves, using anything from Raspberry Pis.

 

And the target of cryptos is not getting rich overnight, it is to offer a financial system alternative.  Yes, plenty of people are getting rich due to volatility but that's not sustainable forever.

 

Anyway those scenarios won't happen.  I even doubt China blocking cryptos completely.  They are moving towards forcing people to use their own Digital Yen, but I guess they will fail at blocking all cryptos.   Probably the Digital Yen will take over as the official currency and other cryptos will move around it.    I enjoy how people that are so called democratic and pro Free Markets are now defending China's decisions and asking for similar ones.

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39 minutes ago, Goodbye_BlueSky said:


Just hypothetically, lets say next week Monday - Fed, EZB, BoE, BoJ and some other big Reserve Banks send a note to all Financial participants that "Handling with any currencies other than backed by a Sovereign state is not allowed for any Banks, Merchants, or Financial institutions". Many will have Bitcoins in the millions but they can't trade it to Evil Dollar/Euro anymore.What you think will happen ? Cryptos are dead by Monday evening I would say.'

 

This is exactly the use case that Bitcoin was created for. People do not have to trade it to any fiat currency - they can simply go directly to other individuals who have the things they want and exchange BTC for goods or services without a middleman. This is one of the primary values of the Bitcoin protocol/network. It has also happened (I think this year in Nigeria?) that when Bitcoin was "banned", the trading of it increased by many times. Governments have no power over it or its users.

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10 minutes ago, Krieg said:

You only need a couple of countries to accept FIAT conversions.  Just like we have now a gazillion of fiscal paradises that allow people to hide their assets.


And you think there will be countries willing to do that when USA, EU and all other super powers "REALLY REALLY" disallow it ? 
Switzerland gave away their Banking secrecy under pressures from USA. Most of the fiscal paradises like Jersy, Cayman Islands, Malta are there cause USA and the other super powers let them remain as Fiscal Paradises , many are part of USA, UK, China or EU anyways. And you think people will risk doing the conversion when FBI is behind them ? Ofcourse there are criminals and there will always be Criminals.

" And the target of cryptos is not getting rich overnight,  it is to offer a financial system alternative "
 --> That was a good ONE :):)
       I am sure the original Satoshi paper wasn't thought to become rich overnight. But I am more than sure a BIG part of the
      investors came here to make "LOTS of" money and become millionares  "super fast" and buy a Lambo soon.

      I saw a report some months back in a German TV- it was about banking and money. They were asking veteran bankers how money is created - many bankers couldnt answer. I am sure most of the Crypto investors dont understand money and dont understand cryptos. They just wanna get rich.

" Anyway those scenarios won't happen "

I also think so. I was talking hypothetically.
USA or EU dont see cryptos as a competetor yet. I think they are thinking it will go away soon. May be the policy makers are making a mistake.

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24 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

Which super network?   The blockchains are run by the people themselves, using anything from Raspberry Pis.

 


That is an interesting point you are making. You mean most of the Bitcoin hashing power comes from individuals running 50$, 800 Mhz ARM Raspberry Pi on basements and not from Miners running lots of speciall built 5000$ machines ? I read somewhere most hashing powers comes from big miners runing their operation in China .
Can you give us some ideas how much of the power are from small compiters like Raspberry Pis ? 

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1 minute ago, Goodbye_BlueSky said:


That is an interesting point you are making. You mean most of the Bitcoin hashing power comes from individuals running 50$, 800 Mhz ARM Raspberry Pi on basements and not from Miners running lots of speciall built 5000$ machines ? I read somewhere most hashing powers comes from big miners runing their operation in China .
Can you give us some ideas how much of the power are from small compiters like Raspberry Pis ? 

 

You are confusing the Blockchain with the mining. 

 

And mining was the first step.  Cryptos are slowly moving out of mining, Proof Of Work (mining) is been replaced with Proof Of Stake.

 

(Except BTC which is very stubborn).

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16 minutes ago, MadManEarle said:

 

This is exactly the use case that Bitcoin was created for. People do not have to trade it to any fiat currency - they can simply go directly to other individuals who have the things they want and exchange BTC for goods or services without a middleman. This is one of the primary values of the Bitcoin protocol/network. It has also happened (I think this year in Nigeria?) that when Bitcoin was "banned", the trading of it increased by many times. Governments have no power over it or its users.


And I am sure if Bitcoin and all other Cryptos need to go to Underground like this then it be game over for Cryptos. No trillion Doller market cap anymore. We have then almost gone back to the Barter system.

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29 minutes ago, MadManEarle said:

 

This is exactly the use case that Bitcoin was created for. People do not have to trade it to any fiat currency - they can simply go directly to other individuals who have the things they want and exchange BTC for goods or services without a middleman. This is one of the primary values of the Bitcoin protocol/network. It has also happened (I think this year in Nigeria?) that when Bitcoin was "banned", the trading of it increased by many times. Governments have no power over it or its users.

Ok, you got some bitcoins with you and you want to buy a car. Assume that at this point the government forbade companies from trading bitcoins.

How do you do it?

And no 3rd world example, please.

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12 minutes ago, Goodbye_BlueSky said:


And I am sure if Bitcoin and all other Cryptos need to go to Underground like this then it be game over for Cryptos. No trillion Doller market cap anymore. We have then almost gone back to the Barter system.

 

How is this any different than buying things with cash? This is not at all bartering.

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8 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Ok, you got some bitcoins with you and you want to buy a car. Assume that at this point the government forbade companies from trading bitcoins.

How do you do it?

And no 3rd world example, please.

 

I would buy it second hand.  Just like you do it in Germany, you go with 20k EUR in cash, you give the money to the seller and you receive the car and the car's papers.

 

So I would go with my smartphone, transfer the crypto to the seller's wallet, get the car and the papers.  Actually it would be safer for the seller because there in no chance of getting fake money.

 

PS. I can't believe you are asking this.

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21 minutes ago, MadManEarle said:

 

How is this any different than buying things with cash? This is not at all bartering.


Sorry, I think I should have used the word "Premitive, Middle Age Bartering System"

Ofcouse cash is also a Barteting system. But it is supplied by the Government. They can tax people and then use it for free medical care, free education,  building roads, policing etc etc. In Germany, as an example, every 2nd EUR is redistributed for the Social Wealfare.
Do you think all of the Bitcoin Billionares will give away 50% of their money every year for the society?
If Bitcoin and Cryptos go underground then everyone will have to take care of himself. We have then gone back to the old days of Clans.

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