Accused of torrenting copyrighted material

3,143 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, DaringD said:

Tell them that you had a couple staying with you at this time who you were helping with accommodation. Both of them had access to the connection during their stay and you can give them names and addresses (that they left for you)

That would have worked before asking for the reduced payment. Now, it's neither viable nor relevant since years have passed since the request for payment.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I need to check dates on these things. 

 

Also, he actually downloaded it so, it sort of serves him right. 

 

D

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess we're no longer dealing with OP anymore too... 157 pages is a lot, I'd have read them all if it wasn't for these Brazilians staying with me... 

 

D

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lunaCH said:

jvjroop only said that he hired a lawyer and they got a reduced price, not that anything was downloaded or admitted...

ya, i never signed anything saying or admitting that i downloaded or agreeing to pay.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great, then it could have been that Brazilian couple you were helping out after all. 

 

D

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, jvjroop said:

ya, i never signed anything saying or admitting that i downloaded or agreeing to pay.

In which case I'd assume that they just dropped the case after they found out you'd left the country and had left no forwarding address.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I am in a very similar situation to a lot of guys. WF started writing to me in 2016 after my son had connected his laptop directly to the WiFi rather than the VPN (my fault for not making him aware!). His laptop automatically tried to continue a download that had been initiated previously (this is my assumption). In the WF letter it identifies that the connection was attempted 3 or 4 times but was never for longer than several minutes.

 

When I got the first letter from WF I asked lots of questions of German colleagues and searched the internet etc for advice. In the end I decided to do the same as I would in UK if I thought I was being scammed by some unscrupulous company - simply ignore the letters until I received something official. Around the middle of last year I received an official letter from Berlin asking if I accepted the charge or if I wanted to challenge it. I selected to challenge it (on the basis that the connection was never long enough for a download to be performed). A few weeks ago I received another official letter from Munich court informing me that the case has been passed to them. So I am now waiting to be summonsed to a court hearing - I think.

 

After reading the last couple of threads on here it would appear that my defence should simply be that it was not me and it is then up to WF to find out who it was - does this seem reasonable? do I need to get legal representation to support this position? any advice welcome guys...

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, AndS said:

I selected to challenge it (on the basis that the connection was never long enough for a download to be performed).

Doesn`t matter if the download was only 20s of the movie.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AndS said:

After reading the last couple of threads on here it would appear that my defence should simply be that it was not me and it is then up to WF to find out who it was - does this seem reasonable? do I need to get legal representation to support this position? any advice welcome guys..

The length of the connection is totally irrelevant.  Just tell them it was not you personally, you have no idea what they are referring to and that others have access i.e. you do not live alone. ;)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AndS said:

So I am in a very similar situation to a lot of guys. WF started writing to me in 2016 after my son had connected his laptop directly to the WiFi rather than the VPN (my fault for not making him aware!). His laptop automatically tried to continue a download that had been initiated previously (this is my assumption). In the WF letter it identifies that the connection was attempted 3 or 4 times but was never for longer than several minutes.

 

When I got the first letter from WF I asked lots of questions of German colleagues and searched the internet etc for advice. In the end I decided to do the same as I would in UK if I thought I was being scammed by some unscrupulous company - simply ignore the letters until I received something official. Around the middle of last year I received an official letter from Berlin asking if I accepted the charge or if I wanted to challenge it. I selected to challenge it (on the basis that the connection was never long enough for a download to be performed). A few weeks ago I received another official letter from Munich court informing me that the case has been passed to them. So I am now waiting to be summonsed to a court hearing - I think.

 

After reading the last couple of threads on here it would appear that my defence should simply be that it was not me and it is then up to WF to find out who it was - does this seem reasonable? do I need to get legal representation to support this position? any advice welcome guys...

Hi 

Can i know how much was the initial claim? I heard it is very rare they bring the issue to court, just wondering if it relates to the amount!

Thanks

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, jvjroop said:

Hi 

Can i know how much was the initial claim? I heard it is very rare they bring the issue to court, just wondering if it relates to the amount!

Thanks

The letter includes several different sums, highest is 2200 with a payment slip of 1500 (could be an initial payment or it could be reduced for paying immediately). To be honest as i have no intention of paying i've never bothered too much about the exact price :)

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I correct in thinking German ISPs are required to disclose IP addresses of their clients to anyone who asks? Seems a privacy violation.

Most people caught are using a torrent of one form or another. This connects IP addresses, so the sender can 'see' the IP address of the peers.

IP addresses are allocated dynamically when you connect to the ISP.

So, presumably the ISP is providing the IP addresses to these companies which are carrying out a form of legal extortion.

Is this required by German law or are they aiding these companies of their own accord?

Is this true of any EU country or just Germany? Just wondering on the legal side if anyone knows for sure.

 

With a VPN in lets say a non EU country, most claim not to log who was connected to what IP address.

Therefore they are unable to provide a translation of the VPN IPs (what torrent peer sees) to the real IP (what the VPN user connected with).

 

One other thing I am unclear about, is, is it legal to setup a shared file in order to deliberately entrap people. A so called honey pot?

Would be highly lucrative from a legal extortion perspective.

At least in some countries this is illegal if practiced by the police. By what about such third party companies claiming to be employed by the film industry.
 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The details of the IP address are only disclosed by the ISP to WF etc. after a court order compels them to. It is however fairly trivial to get this court order if evidence can be provided that this IP address was likely involved in file sharing.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/7/2020, 2:35:22, AndS said:

After reading the last couple of threads on here it would appear that my defence should simply be that it was not me and it is then up to WF to find out who it was - does this seem reasonable? do I need to get legal representation to support this position? any advice welcome guys...

 

Well it's actually trivial to hack most people's wifi network. It's well documented on the internet about how this is done. So establishing an IP address alone only demonstrates the router used to connect to the ISP, not which one of the users connected to the router. This is a commonly known argument and I would image there is case law which covers this particular point. I suspect a specialist lawyer would advise you here and submit that there was no case to answer. I don't know how this plays out in the German courts, but the US courts have mostly moved to throw out such cases. However, I believe Germany has some regulations which make the owner responsible for any usage of the connection, one thing that causes issues with free internet services etc. I am sure Starbucks and the like have had many such letters and I doubt they pay these.

 

Would be curious to know what happened should anyone actually go to court, rather than just pay up. I am guessing the scam works on the basis 99% of the people just pay up. I am sure the courts are familar with these too and just rule automatically one way based on previous rulings.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have dealt with them twice. here is what you do. Ignore all letters until the yellow one comes. Personally, I used all their warning letters in my printer.

 

What WF does is put a scary-looking court order in the letter they send you, but if you read it carefully, you ll see that it is against Kabel Deutschland and not against you personally.

 

Finally, they will take it to the court and the court will send you an yellow envelope.

 

Once that comes, send by registered post, contesting all charges. You don t need a lawyer for this. If you go to a lawyer they will only charge you a lot of money to do the same and you won't save much.


Never ever sign anything WF sends you.

 

They will have to take you to court and prove their case which they don t since it is very hard to prove. Especially if you live in a shared WG.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed the latest you should respond is if/when a yellow envelope arrives (usually with the handwriting of the postman on it to say it was delivered at x time and date). That will be a writ/summons to court and it must be responded to or you will lose in your absence. However I'm not going to advise people to respond themselves. It's easy to make a mistake, especially for a non-native speaker etc. These cases are usually thrown out once a reasonable defence is mounted and there's usually a reasonable defence argument to make these days. Your lawyer's costs will be awarded against the plaintiffs so it should not cost you anything to use a lawyer, though you will have to pay up front and wait for reimbursement by the plaintiff once their case is lost. Indeed this costs them money and the more people that use a lawyer the less lucrative this scam becomes.

 

Personally I engaged with them directly and stated my defence and they dropped the matter and did so in writing after I threatened to sue them if they did not. If they see you are not going to give in, they won't even go to court IMO. The costs escalate immediately for them at that stage and you have to get everything right to make sure you don't lose based on some technicality so there's no advantage to waiting to rebuke the allegation.

 

I agree that nobody should ever sign anything sent by any of these places.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It s easy to respond yourself. There are three boxes, or two, as I recall. One of them says "I will fight all charges" or something along those lines. A friend who speaks German, or deepl translate is enough. Just one tick in that box. That s all I did.

I think that they just mass mail. I know people who paid up. So why go to court against you, especially, as another post states, they tend to lose?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now