Accused of torrenting copyrighted material

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Just to clarify a couple of things as I looked into this carefully for obvious reasons.

 

The address of the connection owner is not simply passed on by the ISP upon request. WF need a court order for this. However, it is fairly trivial to get it. The ISP only provides the connection owner's address on foot of this court order however. You should get a copy of this stuff in the initial letter from WF.

 

The connection owner is not automatically responsible any more as long as someone else had access. This has been tested at the BGH already. 

 

If you have a WG or a family you can simply name the other people and say one of them must have done it. WF will try to bullshit you into believing that you as the connection owner are required to find out who it was but that's not true. Once you name anyone who had access you can disengage (that's what I did) and then give WF 2 weeks to confirm that they are dropping the matter or you will take them to court.

 

They took my deadline seriously and indeed requested an extension!

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1 minute ago, lunaCH said:

I don't doubt that. But I'm unsure of the obligation to give a name. 

 

You don't always have to give a bank account. Anonymous payments are possible.

The address is obvious. But if you give a name of a non-existent person then the threatening letter is going to that non-existent person. That was the point. 

I do appreciate that it is highly unlikely anyone would set it up this way just so that they can use torrents. I was merely pointing out that it is possible. And some people would certainly go to such lengths to cover their tracks if they are doing other illegal stuff online. ;) 

 

Well my ISP, does not accept bitcoin! and I think you will struggle to find one that does.

I am interested, how can you pay Anonymously ? thats accept by an ISP in Germany.

 

I have had my IP connection for more than 20 years, I thought they asked for my passport as well when I got it, I know that for mobile phone use you now have to show them your passport  - which is another way for them to find you.

 

All the services I buy in Germany, I pay through my bank account, and they want to see my passport as well.

 

Most people either do not torrent or get a VPN, otherwise you will probably get a bill for copyright protection infringement

 

 

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6 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Well my ISP, does not accept bitcoin! and I think you will struggle to find one that does.

I am interested, how can you pay Anonymously ?

I didn't even think of bitcoin. 

The last time I checked a cash payment of a bill at the post office using a payment slip was anonymous. ;)

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1 minute ago, lunaCH said:

I didn't even think of bitcoin. 

The last time I checked a cash payment of a bill at the post office using a payment slip was anonymous. ;)

 

I do not know of an ISP that will accept payment like that, they all want your bank account

 

Do you know of any ISP's that would accept a post office payment, if so please list them here 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, yesterday said:

I do not know of an ISP that will accept payment like that, they all want your bank account

Do you know of any ISP's that would accept a post office payment, if so please list them here 

If you've been with the same ISP for so long then I don't doubt that you don't know of any - but that doesn't mean to say that there aren't any. :rolleyes: 

 

Some bills come with a paying in slip, which you can take to the post office to pay in cash if you really want to. I don't do this for our bills as there is a charge for this. But the option is there. 

 

I paid a former neighbour's bills now and again like this for her and there was a €10 charge on top each time. In fact at the counter, they kept asking me if I wanted to open an account to save money and I had to explain that these were not my bills but an elderly neighbour's who could not get to Germany to make the payments and that I did not want an account and I did not care about the €10 fee as I was being paid it back. ;)

 

My point was if an invoice is made out to a person who doesn't exist and said invoice is paid in cash over the counter at the post office, this is an anonymous way of transferring the money.

But I think we're getting slightly off topic now. :)

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The BGH has previously accepted that simply naming other people who had access is enough to fulfill your obligation of "sekundäre Darlegungslast". The other party can deny that they did it and WF etc. have reached a dead end. You are not obliged to do more than name the other people who had access.

 

https://aspvr.de/filesharing-bgh-entlastet-anschlussinhaber/

 

If you are the sole user of the connection you still have a problem. I'm sure some people however have persuaded a couple of friends to claim they also had access but didn't file share. It's not uncommon to allow visitors access to your WiFi so this argument would probably stand up too. But IANAL.

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I'm thinking in the case of a landlord renting a property, you could even try  'The connection in question is in a rented apartment outside of my control, but for data-protection reasons I can't tell you the name of the tenants'.

I guess they could still come back with a court order, but anything that wastes their time makes the business model less attractive, so  it might be worth a go.

 

 

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1 hour ago, pappnase said:

 'The connection in question is in a rented apartment outside of my control, but for data-protection reasons I can't tell you the name of the tenants'.

Fully agree with this. Especially since in these circumstances it is impossible for the landlord to know exactly who is in the apartment and who is doing what.

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This argument works for public connections like coffee shops but a landlord can IMO be expected to name the tenant(s) and at the end of the day it will have been one of the tenants or their visitors. They can then point the finger at each other. If the LL flat out refused to name the tenants I believe the courts would say he had not fulfilled his sekundäre Darlegungslast. 

 

The law works like this: The plaintiff is deemed to have proved the connection owner liable unless the connection owner can name others who could have done it (sekundäre Darlegungslast). Once the connection owner names some people then the burden of proof returns (but now @ 100%) to the plaintiff and it is a practical impossibility for the plaintiff to identify with certainty which of the people with access actually did the filesharing so the case is dismissed.

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Hi

I had a letter like this from Waldorf Frommer in Sept 2015. I approached a Lawyer and asked to act on behalf of me by paying him. I think he wrote a modified deficit letter. After that I moved out of Germany. In April 2016, my lawyer wrote an email to me as he couldn't deliver a letter to me anymore, he attached a response from WF with a reduced price. I called him and i said i am out of the country and might not return for a foreseeable future. He then said that he will let WF know that i have left the country and he couldnt get in touch with me.

Is this approach fine ? its been a while lie about 5 years from the first letter. i haven't heard anything from my lawyer since then. Is the claim closed? Is it true that they take some cases to court?

Thanks

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44 minutes ago, jvjroop said:

He then said that he will let WF know that i have left the country and he couldnt get in touch with me.

Is this approach fine ? its been a while lie about 5 years from the first letter. i haven't heard anything from my lawyer since then. Is the claim closed? Is it true that they take some cases to court?

WF may well have dropped the case as they are unable to pursue it. Can you not contact the lawyer to see if they heard any more about it after the last contact?

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1 minute ago, lunaCH said:

WF may well have dropped the case as they are unable to pursue it. Can you not contact the lawyer to see if they heard any more about it after the last contact?

Well, i could, i was not really thinking about it until now. I am assuming the lawyer will let me know if anything comes from WF! It's just that i don't want to get in touch with the lawyer as he said he will report to WF that he couldn't get in touch with me. I thought it might be his argument for not pursuing the case further!? 

i beleive only way to still get a letter to me is to write it to the lawyer. and i am not sure if they will chase me in UK ?

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8 minutes ago, jvjroop said:

Well, i could, i was not really thinking about it until now. I am assuming the lawyer will let me know if anything comes from WF! It's just that i don't want to get in touch with the lawyer as he said he will report to WF that he couldn't get in touch with me. I thought it might be his argument for not pursuing the case further!? 

i beleive only way to still get a letter to me is to write it to the lawyer. and i am not sure if they will chase me in UK ?

If they get hold of your UK address, they might pursue it. But I don't know if they really do this for small amounts. 

It doesn't matter that the lawyer told them you were not reachable and you now (continue to) contact the lawyer. This is just between the two of you. 

I would assume, like you, that WF did not contact the lawyer again, but if you want to be sure, you can check.

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2 minutes ago, lunaCH said:

If they get hold of your UK address, they might pursue it. But I don't know if they really do this for small amounts. 

It doesn't matter that the lawyer told them you were not reachable and you now (continue to) contact the lawyer. This is just between the two of you.

Thanks...its  been 5 yrs since 2015 sept I received the first letter. and no communication from my lawyer as well since April/May 2016 after they reduced the amount to 600 euros from 800. I will just wait for my lawyer if there is anything. i don't want to get into the picture and initiate something now.

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The lawyer was paid for negotiating a reduced amount to be paid to WF, time passed and then they told WF you'd left Germany and could not be reached. I'd say the trail went cold and you got out of paying WF as any new 'invoice' is technically not deliverable. I'd say the onus is on WF to find you in the UK, otherwise nothing will happen.

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2 minutes ago, lunaCH said:

The lawyer was paid for negotiating a reduced amount to be paid to WF, time passed and then they told WF you'd left Germany and could not be reached. I'd say the trail went cold and you got out of paying WF as any new 'invoice' is technically not deliverable. I'd say the onus is on WF to find you in the UK, otherwise nothing will happen.

well, i am not sure if my lawyer told WF that i moved to UK. I assume he might not. Even if he did will WF pursue that to find me . Did it happen on any case ? any idea how they would do that?

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25 minutes ago, jvjroop said:

well, i am not sure if my lawyer told WF that i moved to UK. I assume he might not. Even if he did will WF pursue that to find me . Did it happen on any case ? any idea how they would do that?

Did you give the town hall (where you last resided in Germany) or the lawyer your UK address? I doubt your lawyer would pass it on even if he had it. He's not obliged to, - it would be up to WF to find it out.

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I did give town hall just that I m leaving to UK and same to the lawyer. Didn't specify the address. 

 

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Tell them that you had a couple staying with you at this time who you were helping with accommodation. Both of them had access to the connection during their stay and you can give them names and addresses (that they left for you) in a Brazilian Favela. 

 

Job done. 

 

D

 

If anyone thinks this is unrealistic, this is an actual thing that happened to me, minus the downloading and the address being in a Favela. 

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