Accused of torrenting copyrighted material

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On 4/14/2019, 12:16:06, miss_understood666 said:

Does anyone know the consequences of not paying the penalty if one was to move out of Germany in 5 months?

 

 

From what I understand, it could be a pain if you ever decide to move back. One never knows the future...

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On 14/04/2019, 18:16:06, miss_understood666 said:

Does anyone know the consequences of not paying the penalty if one was to move out of Germany in 5 months?

 

6 hours ago, savoysuit said:

From what I understand, it could be a pain if you ever decide to move back. One never knows the future...

 

Not just that, we know from experiences posted here that debts can follow people to other countries, and europe is generally getting closer and more integrated.  It seems @miss_understood666 is spanish and Id expect spain to be an unwise place to try to hide from legal or financial problems in germany.

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Hi all I am looking for some advice on a similar issue.

 

I have been receiving letters from Waldorf Fromer for illegally downloading films (my visiting sons laptop connected, and tried to download, several times but only for a matter of seconds each time).

I have been deliberately ignoring the letters hoping they would simply give up. However, I have now received a Mahnbescheid claiming the original 1600 Euros plus another 400 for their letters etc. My understanding is that they can apply without showing any evidence of my being at fault and it is now up to me to provide a statement contesting the claim. I guess I have 2 questions - am i correct in my understanding? do I need to get a lawyer to help craft a response to the Mahnbesscheid?

 

Any advice gratefully received guys. 

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You don't need to explain yourself at all at this stage. You can tick the box that says you contest their claims completely, sign and sent it back (registered letter preferred) within the deadline. Does the Mahnbescheid even have a field for giving any explanation?

If you don't contest in time they get a title and can sent a bailiff to collect their money by force. 

 

Pretty much everyone receives the Mahnbescheid in the long run if they don't pay. It's simple for Waldorf-Frommer to do. After you have contested the Mahnbescheid they may or may not sue you. Suing is more expensive/complicated for them so they don't sue everyone. (Whether or not you would stand in court I do not know. Open wifi or family members having done the deed can be a defense under specific circumstances.)

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Fantastic. Many thanks for the advice Sneaker. I had not even noticed that it was a simple tick box stating you contest the claim. I will get this done and sent off (registered post!) and see where it goes next.

 

Many thanks for the advice.

 

AndS

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7 hours ago, sneaker said:

You don't need to explain yourself at all at this stage. You can tick the box that says you contest their claims completely, sign and sent it back (registered letter preferred) within the deadline. Does the Mahnbescheid even have a field for giving any explanation?

If you don't contest in time they get a title and can sent a bailiff to collect their money by force. 

 

Pretty much everyone receives the Mahnbescheid in the long run if they don't pay. It's simple for Waldorf-Frommer to do. After you have contested the Mahnbescheid they may or may not sue you. Suing is more expensive/complicated for them so they don't sue everyone. (Whether or not you would stand in court I do not know. Open wifi or family members having done the deed can be a defense under specific circumstances.)

 

My family in germany went through the same situation... but they "lawyered" up since the first WF contact. Wish they wouldn't!!!

 

- The lawyer cost was 150 to answer to the letters, using the best "defense" possible.

- 3 years latter, my family got the Mahnbescheid...

- The lawyer cost was 100 euros to respond to it!

- 5 months later, my family lawyer and WF entered negotiations... 

- The amount now asked by WF is almost 2000 euros!

- Lawyer says more 100 or 150 euros to deal with negotiations PLUS LEGAL expenses of the Mahnbescheid?? (what are the expenses of the Mahnbescheid??? are the persons who receive it liable to pay some kind of court expenses?)

 

So... he's trying to make a deal, and even if it comes down to the initial value (let's say 1000 euros!) the lawyer expenses add to it! PLUS the Mahnbescheid court expenses?!

 

It was a bad move not to get a specialized lawyer that does the living with cases like these everyday of the week! :\

 

I advised my family to fight this, because the person who did? it, was a foreign visiting at the time... Problem here is: going to court, with the culprit being someone that can be identified by witnesses, can my family still be liable? Is there any defense possible in these cases? It's not fair that my family has to pay for something someone else did, yet, they shared the wifi password (but advised not to do anything ilegal...)

 

Bottom line: we are both in the same situation! The difference is that my family already has hundreds of euros of fees, and you can now hire a layer to start the negotiation process, or wait for WF to sue and lawyer up then!

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Wow sorry to hear it has been such a bad experience for your family Marcolopes. I must admit that several people advised that we get a lawyer from the outset and I only resisted based on what I would do in UK, wait for something formal to happen - like receiving a  Mahnbescheid.

 

My hope is that WF give up and don't pursue it through the courts. However, as they did pursue your case there is little basis for this. In your case was the download for a significant period of time? as i said mine was only I for a matter of seconds so this may be a part of my defense if we have to go to court (with a lawyer obviously!).

 

Hope it turns out well for your family.      

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13 hours ago, AndS said:

Wow sorry to hear it has been such a bad experience for your family Marcolopes. I must admit that several people advised that we get a lawyer from the outset and I only resisted based on what I would do in UK, wait for something formal to happen - like receiving a  Mahnbescheid.

 

My hope is that WF give up and don't pursue it through the courts. However, as they did pursue your case there is little basis for this. In your case was the download for a significant period of time? as i said mine was only I for a matter of seconds so this may be a part of my defense if we have to go to court (with a lawyer obviously!).

 

Hope it turns out well for your family.      

 

Are you going to risk to be sued? and (if) only then lawyer up to get a settlement or go to trial?

 

My family has a good defense! They can point out that someone else did it... i'm still waiting to see if the lawyer thinks it's a sure win or not. If not, i don't know how anyone (the connection owner) can win cases like this (no liability - case closed!)

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Hi sorry for the delay in responding.

 

Yip I am pretty much going to wait and see what happens.

 

I think I am in the same position as you, I know who did it and I did not authorise the person to do it so, in my view, it is that persons problem not mine. I also think that the connection only lasted for seconds proves that there has been no theft of data etc. At least that will be the defence I discuss with a lawyer as and when it comes to a court case.

 

Out of interst who is the lawyer representing you? based on your experience I want to make sure I don't take the same one!

 

 

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There is something like Störerhaftung, which makes the "owner" of a WLAN liable for any illegal activity happening through that WLAN.

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Thanks Chris - if that is the case then I am reliant on the fact that the connection was not long enough for any download to have been effective. Not sure if this will hold up but i'm willing to pursue it rather than just roll over...

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Unfortunately it must have been long enough for the tech people to find your IP address. and its the upload not the download that they do you for.

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3 hours ago, AndS said:

Thanks Chris - if that is the case then I am reliant on the fact that the connection was not long enough for any download to have been effective. Not sure if this will hold up but i'm willing to pursue it rather than just roll over...

Yeah, definitely fight it but be as informed as you can be.

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Hi all, can someone please tell me, how long does the ISP store the data about ip connections of uploading?

Also, if I had something accidentally uploading and saw that, how long should it take for these companies to react and after which time should I think they cannot access my ip data retroactively?

 

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40 minutes ago, cajoxbox said:

Hi all, can someone please tell me, how long does the ISP store the data about ip connections of uploading?

 

The do not keep data about uploads, only who was connected to which IP and when.  And they are required to keep that information for a few years.

 

40 minutes ago, cajoxbox said:

Also, if I had something accidentally uploading and saw that, how long should it take for these companies to react and after which time should I think they cannot access my ip data retroactively?

 

 

Even a few seconds uploading is enough to get screwed if you get caught.   You normally receive the letter after a couple of weeks.   But they will have plenty of time go get your contact data.

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

The do not keep data about uploads, only who was connected to which IP and when.  

 

This is true but not really helpful, as it isn't the isp that is of concern. 

The lawyer will track the uploads and then go to the isp to ask for a real person who matches the ip address.

 

So the correct question is how long does the lawyer store the upload data and how long does the isp store the IP address assignments.

 

Answer: long enough.

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Follow up to say that my family decided to settle 😳

 

The amount was almost double the initial value (and half what they were asking at this point, after the infamous yellow letter). The lawyer also was a bit of a disappointment, as he charged for every single intervention!! NOT flat rate at all! 🤮🤮🤮🤮

 

A note to say that I know a case where the German family accused a foreign person, and Waldorf notified that person in his country (Portugal!) 😱😱😱😱😱 In this case, if it comes to a lawsuit, will it be in Germany or in Portugal??

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Hello guys! 

thank you so much for all the information provided here, it is really helpful. So first and foremost, I wish that all those of you who have a case can have a swift way out. 

Long story short: I've got the letter, and honestly didn't know I was doing something illegal. So rather than lying and say 'lol bro burden of the proof's on you haha' and deny all – as advised by ALL the lawyers I've been in touch with – here's what I will do: 

(A) contact a lawyer

(B) ask to make a new cease-and-desist letter

(C) ask for a settlement 30-40-50% off and close the case

 

I think this is the best option, given what I've read so far. I don't want W-F to get after me for next years because the case is still pending and I have a lawyer that keeps arguing with them to, in the end, pay the whole thing with the taxes as a nice topping! 

 

What do you think? 

 

Best wishes 

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On 28/11/2019, 08:23:44, nobotunseen said:

Hello guys! 

thank you so much for all the information provided here, it is really helpful. So first and foremost, I wish that all those of you who have a case can have a swift way out. 

Long story short: I've got the letter, and honestly didn't know I was doing something illegal. So rather than lying and say 'lol bro burden of the proof's on you haha' and deny all – as advised by ALL the lawyers I've been in touch with – here's what I will do: 

(A) contact a lawyer

(B) ask to make a new cease-and-desist letter

(C) ask for a settlement 30-40-50% off and close the case

 

I think this is the best option, given what I've read so far. I don't want W-F to get after me for next years because the case is still pending and I have a lawyer that keeps arguing with them to, in the end, pay the whole thing with the taxes as a nice topping! 

 

What do you think? 

 

Best wishes 

 

My advice is the same:

 

(A) contact FLAT RATE a lawyer (150 EUROS!) to do 2 specific things:

(B) ask to make a new cease-and-desist letter

(C) ask for a settlement 50% off and close the case

 

(My family made a big mistake not hiring a FLAT RATE lawyer, and the expenses went up to 500 EUROS, just for the lawyer... We live, we learn...)

 

And don't forget:

- NEVER GIVE THE WIRELESS password to ANYONE (even family!!!)

- BLOCK all known sites that are a OPEN INVITATION to unwilling torrent (like https://popcorntime-online.ch)

- LIVE IN FEAR for the rest of your lives, because someone, at some point, will make a mistake eventually... and there are NO WARNINGS! "They" go in for the KILL... (Amazing Germany!...)

 

 

 

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