Accused of torrenting copyrighted material

3,131 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:

The whole thing comes down to whether or not children know that what they are doing is wrong and, frankly, whether you can trust them to be online without supervision.  They should at least know they shouldnt be installing anything without checking with an adult (popcorn time for example).

 

I think that was true for the previous (my) generation but this generation is growing up with the internet, smartphones and computers. Right from the get go. Kids are online 24/7 with access to multiple devices both at home and at school.

 

I think that's the problem. The generation gap. Adults know of copyright theft but may not know about torrenting. Whereas kids know about torrenting but may not know about copyright theft. The two sides don't even know they need to talk to each other about it.

 

I know a kid who is being brought up by their grandparents. They wouldn't know to tell the kid not to torrent. I have happened to mention it to them but they could have easily each found out for the first time after receiving such a letter.

 

1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:

Quite aside from illegal torrenting, there are any number of things children (or anyone else) can get themselves in trouble with online.

 

Indeed. I hope/assume online safety is taught at school these days. In Germany, torrenting should be included in that.

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2 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

I think that was true for the previous (my) generation but this generation is growing up with the internet, smartphones and computers. Right from the get go. Kids are online 24/7 with access to multiple devices both at home and at school.

 

 

This might vary from country to country (Germany appears to be very conservative, Internet wise). But anyone who was around 10 in the year 2000 in most of Europe and North America WAS brough up on the Internet.

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It takes under 10 minutes to explain a small kid about not installing any software without the authorization from the parents and giving the kid a mini training about copyright and how to avoid the usual problems.

 

Usually the problem is not small kids making honest mistakes, it is rebel teenagers who know what they are doing and still do it.  So, just the same attitude as the adults who get caught.

 

Yes, still honest mistakes happen because, well, sh*t happens.   But it is not the normal situation.    You really have to go out of your way to torrent movies, so in most cases the person was doing it willingly.

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4 minutes ago, Krieg said:

It takes under 10 minutes to explain a small kid about not installing any software without the authorization from the parents and giving the kid a mini training about copyright and how to avoid the usual problems.

 

Usually the problem is not small kids making honest mistakes, it is rebel teenagers who know what they are doing and still do it.  So, just the same attitude as the adults who get caught.

 

Yes, still honest mistakes happen because, well, sh*t happens.   But it is not the normal situation.    You really have to go out of your way to torrent movies, so in most cases the person was doing it willingly.

 

 

Does the act of torrenting something for 10 seconds warrant a 700 euro fine? Part of the problem is there is no standard. The numbers are totally made up... and these private law firms get away with whatever they want.

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1 minute ago, savoysuit said:

 

 

Does the act of torrenting something for 10 seconds warrant a 700 euro fine? Part of the problem is there is no standard. The numbers are totally made up... and these private law firms get away with whatever they want.

 

I don't disagree with you, but part of the problem is that in these 10 seconds the data could have been shared with 1 person or 100,000!  

And to argue that the fine is disproportionate for the offence would require going to court and proving your case which would cost more than the fine/settlement.

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3 minutes ago, savoysuit said:

 

 

Does the act of torrenting something for 10 seconds warrant a 700 euro fine? Part of the problem is there is no standard. The numbers are totally made up... and these private law firms get away with whatever they want.

I could totally understand a 100 euro fine. Even a 150 euro.

 

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2 minutes ago, savoysuit said:

 

 

Does the act of torrenting something for 10 seconds warrant a 700 euro fine? Part of the problem is there is no standard. The numbers are totally made up... and these private law firms get away with whatever they want.

 

It is not a fine.  They usually claim damages and lawyer fees.   If that's fair or not I can't tell you, you have to go in front of a judge who will decide it.

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3 minutes ago, krendan said:

I could totally understand a 100 euro fine. Even a 150 euro.

 

 

Very nice of you.

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13 hours ago, Krieg said:

It takes under 10 minutes to explain a small kid about not installing any software without the authorization from the parents and giving the kid a mini training about copyright and how to avoid the usual problems.

 

Usually the problem is not small kids making honest mistakes, it is rebel teenagers who know what they are doing and still do it.  So, just the same attitude as the adults who get caught.

 

Yes, still honest mistakes happen because, well, sh*t happens.   But it is not the normal situation.    You really have to go out of your way to torrent movies, so in most cases the person was doing it willingly.

 

No, if you stumble into a WEB site that shows you a movie catalog and all you have to do is install a PLUGIN (that you are not aware it's going to upload anything) to start "streaming"!

 

Also, STREAMING is not targeted by WF... only sharing. And i say it again: IF those sites were blocked, then you would be right: "in most cases the person was doing it willingly" - because they willingly have to circumvent the block (and, i say it again, as simple as changing DNS on the computer, so, this could arguably be called "censorship", but more merely a protective measure)

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On 25/03/2019, 09:46:24, theGman said:

 

Aye exactly. Drugs are a somewhat serious business all over the world, but being explicitly warned in certain countries that punishments are much more severe is good practice. Of course, some people still do it, but I bet it's far less.

 

Torrenting copyrighted material is illegal everywhere but in most places it's not enforced. Would be good to let foreigners know that in Germany, it is very much enforced. Obviously a sign at the airport was tongue in cheek, but we see here on this forum that plenty of people were not aware until it happens. A warning letter for a first offence (even if it is a civil case) would be much better. Not sure of the government could enforce that somehow.

 

Jaywalking is a thing in many parts of the world too, but it's level of enforcement varies from country to country. In the UK it's not a thing. Here it is.

 

Bottom line: We may come to a point where NO ONE will permit others to use their internet connection... even family members should have their own dedicated access so they can be liable! (i'm joking... or am i? :\) Foreigners? Forget it! NEVER give access to anything on your network!

 

BTW, what about those "fonera" hotspots? My ISP is on their network, so, anyone can connect to my router and access the internet... sure... they have a login, but isn't the same IP address?...

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I guess we won't have to worry soon.

 

With the new "upload filters" having to be implemented to avoid copyright abuse according to the new EU law then this should stop all illegal sharing of content, right?  So then the problem will cease to exist!   ;)

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5 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

I guess we won't have to worry soon.

 

With the new "upload filters" having to be implemented to avoid copyright abuse according to the new EU law then this should stop all illegal sharing of content, right?  So then the problem will cease to exist!   ;)

 

and how will they block copy write abuse when the offender uses a VPN ?

 

 

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or is the EU intending us to live in a China type state, which actively blocks VPN's, to protect the artistes - but means censorship comes in to place

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1 minute ago, yesterday said:

 

and how will they block copy write abuse when the offender uses a VPN ?

 

 

 

 

The filters are applied by the upload site, so then this is not an issue and only the "tunnel" is encrypted.

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1 minute ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

 

The filters are applied by the upload site, so then this is not an issue and only the "tunnel" is encrypted.

 

and when the upload site is in US or jamaca, how will the EU enforce this ?

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6 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

and when the upload site is in US or jamaca, how will the EU enforce this ?

 

Good question!

 

I guess they will say if the content was upload from or to an EU country.  But of course if they use a VPN then they can disguise this.

Another reason why the law is actually bad, because it can be easily bypassed in this way.  Also, because it will not apply to all companies! 

 

BTW:  I am not advocating  the law, and my post was tongue in check to point out that it won't stop all problems and P2P clients will not need to implement such filters.

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6 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

Good question!

 

I guess they will say if the content was upload from or to an EU country.  But of course if they use a VPN then they can disguise this.

Another reason why the law is actually bad, because it can be easily bypassed in this way.  Also, because it will not apply to all companies! 

 

BTW:  I am not advocating  the law, and my post was tongue in check to point out that it won't stop all problems and P2P clients will not need to implement such filters.

 

sorry, I did not intend to get at you personally.

 

and I need to read up on all the implications of this new ruling, its just you seemed to know more than me :lol:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

sorry, I did not intend to get at you personally.

 

and I need to read up on all the implications of this new ruling, its just you seemed to know more than me :lol:

 

 

 

I don't think anyone knows yet what the implications of this will be.  And how the companies, and later courts, will interpret the law and apply it.

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5 hours ago, marcolopes said:

 

No, if you stumble into a WEB site that shows you a movie catalog and all you have to do is install a PLUGIN (that you are not aware it's going to upload anything) to start "streaming"!

 

Installing a plugin falls into my instructions of "Do not install anything without asking a parent first".

 

I do have small kids and they use the Internet.   So far it is working and I do not think they are specially clever or Internet gurus. 

 

You can as well use whatever your operating system and browser configuration offers to secure the PC.   For example, only admins can install new programs.   In the browser you can activate the secure mode and maybe only allow plugins from the official plugin store from your browser, etc. 

 

Sorry but those excuses are in 99.99% of the cases very lame, I didn't know it was illegal, sure.    It is more like, I didn't know it would upload, or I didn't know I would get caught.

 

5 hours ago, marcolopes said:

 

Bottom line: We may come to a point where NO ONE will permit others to use their internet connection... even family members should have their own dedicated access so they can be liable! (i'm joking... or am i? :\) Foreigners? Forget it! NEVER give access to anything on your network!

 

 

Since the laws are there and I can't change them, the only thing I can do is take measures in order to avoid problems.   So if I have guests in my house and they want to use my Internet connection I only allow smartphones to be connected and first I have to check through their list of installed apps.    They do not want me to see their phones, OK, then no Internet for you.   If I see any apps I can't figure out what they are for then I ask, if the guest thinks it is too much asking, well, sorry, no Internet for you.

 

 

 

I guess they can't and the "upload blocking law" is useless.  A win-win I guess.

 

54 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

I guess we won't have to worry soon.

 

With the new "upload filters" having to be implemented to avoid copyright abuse according to the new EU law then this should stop all illegal sharing of content, right?  So then the problem will cease to exist!   ;)

 

You can't really stop piracy with censorship.    The only effective way to do it is offering legal access to the media for reasonable prices.    See the current state of the music business, with the introduction of Spotify and co. the music piracy has reduced a lot.   The convenience of having most of the existing commercial music ever created in your pocket for $10 a month in developed countries and $20 a year in some third world countries is enough to convince many pirates that it is not worth and it is much convenient just to pay for the service.

 

But then talking about the technical side, I really want to see how they are going to stop illegal uploads when the illegal material is split in small blocks and every block is heavily encrypted and then encapsulated in a HTTP connection to another random user who can be just anyone.  

 

48 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

and how will they block copy write abuse when the offender uses a VPN ?

 

 

 

I guess they can't, so it is a win-win situation.

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9 minutes ago, Krieg said:

...

You can't really stop piracy with censorship.    The only effective way to do it is offering legal access to the media for reasonable prices.    See the current state of the music business, with the introduction of Spotify and co. the music piracy has reduced a lot.   The convenience of having most of the existing commercial music ever created in your pocket for $10 a month in developed countries and $20 a year in some third world countries is enough to convince many pirates that it is not worth and it is much convenient just to pay for the service.

..

 

 

I agree.  In fact one could argue that the mass piracy of music a few years ago forced the music industry to embrace change and finally adapt.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Krieg said:

...

 

encrypted and then encapsulated in a HTTP connection ...

 

 

 

Just a small correction, P2P does not use HTTP(S) but works on a lower level using TCP (and UDP I think also for some things)

 

 

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