Accused of torrenting copyrighted material

3,131 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

Aye exactly. Drugs are a somewhat serious business all over the world, but being explicitly warned in certain countries that punishments are much more severe is good practice. Of course, some people still do it, but I bet it's far less.

 

Torrenting copyrighted material is illegal everywhere but in most places it's not enforced. Would be good to let foreigners know that in Germany, it is very much enforced. Obviously a sign at the airport was tongue in cheek, but we see here on this forum that plenty of people were not aware until it happens. A warning letter for a first offence (even if it is a civil case) would be much better. Not sure of the government could enforce that somehow.

 

Jaywalking is a thing in many parts of the world too, but it's level of enforcement varies from country to country. In the UK it's not a thing. Here it is.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because things in Europe are different in different EU  Countrys 

 

eg speed limit in Uk is 70mph, while in Germany its unlimited on the Motorway, many many things are different in EU in different Countrys 

 

in US states have different speed limit between different states.

 

How copywrite regualation are implimented in different EU country's ( or states ) can be very different 

 

EU tries not to interfer too much in local laws, only when there really needs to be common standards does it get involved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, theGman said:

They should put up a sign in arrivals at all German airports.

 

They already put anti piracy notices all over the place.  Not sure if you still watch DVDs but most of them have about 5 minutes of unskipable warnings, as they do (or did last time i was there) in the cinema.

 

The point is that people from other countries have learned to ignore these notices because whilst they know its not allowed they dont expect to be caught or fined.

 

 

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, theGman said:

Torrenting copyrighted material is illegal everywhere but in most places it's not enforced. Would be good to let foreigners know that in Germany, it is very much enforced. Obviously a sign at the airport was tongue in cheek, but we see here on this forum that plenty of people were not aware until it happens. A warning letter for a first offence (even if it is a civil case) would be much better. Not sure of the government could enforce that somehow.

 

Generating such letter would have a cost.  The lawyer company already subcontracted the networking hunting.  So, if no one is sponsoring such letters like in other countries (i.e. the owner of the copyright) then it is not going to happen, they would expect to recoup their expenses from the offenders and make a profit.

 

Try to think another example of a civil law case and think if just a letter is enough.   I guess in most cases you would think it is not enough, so why should copyright damages be different?

 

And anyway, honestly, it is not a problem of awareness, almost everyone by now knows that downloading a pirate movie is not kosher.  The issue is that people think they can get away with it.  And then they are surprised they were caught.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Krieg said:

And then, bit torrent is used for legal stuff as well.

 

I have wondered about this but never knew it.

 

So why don't they simply shut down all of the illegal bit torrent sites or is there also legal stuff going on on them as well?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

So why don't they simply shut down all of the illegal bit torrent sites or is there also legal stuff going on on them as well?

 

Why dont we end the drug war by just shutting down all drug producers?

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

..

 

So why don't they simply shut down all of the illegal bit torrent sites or is there also legal stuff going on on them as well?

 

 

Because there are no "sites" to shut down.  Bit torrent is P2P or Peer to Peer, so there is no central server which stores anything, so there is no site to shut down.  Each bit torrent client downloads from other clients in the network (swarm).

 

Therefore you can't shut down every single client as just using P2P is not illegal as they could be sharing things legally.  Also, the way it works is that you don't download the whole file (say movie) from a single client, rather you download different pieces from different clients.  As the data is therefore distributed then it is not really possible to detect what is in each download as it is too small.

 

And of course normally just downloading is not enough.  The lawyers go after people who have uploaded as they are sharing and hence actively distributing and the money they can get in damages is more.  The way P2P works means that you don't just download from others in the network but also upload to them (I think some clients allow you to disable this, but maybe not all, and most people don't realise and don't do it!)

 

 

Some ISPs do (or did) however down prioritise such traffic.  I had a problem in the past as a game I had purchased used P2P for distributing updates, but my ISP down prioritised it so that it became almost impossible for me to get the updates in this way.  A perfectly legal way of using P2P (this was during the peak of illegal P2P downloads in Germany a few years ago).

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the explanation, dj. I really know nothing about these things. I thought there were certain web addresses where people logged in and downloaded/uploaded. Himself used to do it years ago before getting caught.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, fraufruit said:

Thanks for the explanation, dj. I really know nothing about these things. I thought there were certain web addresses where people logged in and downloaded/uploaded. Himself used to do it years ago before getting caught.

 

This is how it used to work.  But P2P was designed to get around these "problems"!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, theGman said:

Pretty sure you would indeed get an equivalent of a warning letter for stealing a chocolate bar from Netto. They wouldn't stick you with a €2k fine for the first offence.

Netto demands 50 Euro in cash when they catch you. If you don't pay on the spot you also receive lawyer letters with additional 48 Euro demand = 98 Euro for one chocolate bar. State attorneys will usually just close the criminal case because "no public interest, first offender yadda yadda".

So it's actually not that different from the copyright cases. Authorities stopped going after pirates long ago, it's just the civil disputes still going on.

 

 

(No, I haven't stolen :) Know people who work there.)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Years ago the government wanted to install Internet filters for child pornography. In the end they got rid of the law. It was seen as a slippery slope to increasing censorship and ultimately also as ineffective.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, sneaker said:

Years ago the government wanted to install Internet filters for child pornography. In the end they got rid of the law. It was seen as a slippery slope to increasing censorship and ultimately also as ineffective.

 

It may not be as dead as we think. The legally mandated "upload filter" is more or less the same but for uploads.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Well, I won't advocate for censorship, because once you take one step the next one would be easier.   And then, bit torrent is used for legal stuff as well.

 

And the other problem is that blocking bit torrent is a real challenge, you might be able to block the public trackers and maybe all unencrypted attempts.  But private trackers and heavily encrypted traffic will be mostly impossible.   You can tunnel encrypted bit torrent traffic in basically every kind of other traffic, like HTTP just as a start, so you obviously can't block all HTTP traffic, and you do not know what is traveling there in the stream because it is encrypted, so your only remaining choice is starting a cat-and-mouse race to block all known private trackers.  And all they have to do is changing the tracker IP address.  Or move to tracker-less torrents.

 

Com'on guys! I'm not pro-censorship! I'm am not talking about doing the "impossible" (aka "blocking bit torrent"!!), what i'm saying is to block the SITES that provide the torrents, ***AND*** the sites that allow you to download software like POPCORN! (again, ***IF*** you still want them, you can go around... but there is a first line of protection, specially for those who are not aware if it! Reading a notice "The site you want to access is blocked following the execution of a judicial or administrative order" is very clear!

 

Sites like https://www.skytorrents.lol should be blocked!

***AND*** https://popcorntime.sh, where you read " Best of all... Popcorn Time is free! " is an accident waiting to happen!

To make things worst, in germany anyone can browse the amazing, wonderful, complete and mesmerizing catalogue the immediately shows up when you access https://popcorntime-online.ch (when you press PLAY, it says you need a plugin... you install it, and you become a silent torrenter!!)

 

Now... today there is a warning after you hit play, at least with the Popcorn program (this might be ilegal in your country) but hey!!! is anyone going to stop the curiosity when the movie is already playing? (and if it did, it only takes a few seconds to become a criminal!)

 

Sure, the law is the law, but i have to agree that, at least in the case of something like PopcornTIme, that can be freely accessed with no care being taken by governments and ISPs, the LAW should give the offenders at least a first warning, explaining the issue, what they should avoid, and never repeat (not this nonsense of transforming hundreds of thousands of families into criminals!)

 

Oh, and another thing: MANY of the cases I came across are from people overseas VISITING people in Germany!!!! And let's be honest, even if the foreign person is located and identified, he could live if a very poor country, and be faced with a fine several times what he earns in a month!! All of this must be taking into consideration! It's not the foreigner's fault that Germany is a "rich" country and they just fine everyone with THOUSANDS of euros for "inadvertently" sharing a movie with and obscure streaming software...)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, marcolopes said:

 

Com'on guys! I'm not pro-censorship!

 

If you ask for censorship then you are pro-censorship.   You are asking the government to ban bit torrent sites, that's censorship.  

 

Quote

 

I'm am not talking about doing the "impossible" (aka "blocking bit torrent"!!), what i'm saying is to block the SITES that provide the torrents, ***AND*** the sites that allow you to download software like POPCORN! (again, ***IF*** you still want them, you can go around... but there is a first line of protection, specially for those who are not aware if it! Reading a notice "The site you want to access is blocked following the execution of a judicial or administrative order" is very clear!

 

Sites like https://www.skytorrents.lol should be blocked!

***AND*** https://popcorntime.sh, where you read " Best of all... Popcorn Time is free! " is an accident waiting to happen!

To make things worst, in germany anyone can browse the amazing, wonderful, complete and mesmerizing catalogue the immediately shows up when you access https://popcorntime-online.ch (when you press PLAY, it says you need a plugin... you install it, and you become a silent torrenter!!)

 

Now... today there is a warning after you hit play, at least with the Popcorn program (this might be ilegal in your country) but hey!!! is anyone going to stop the curiosity when the movie is already playing? (and if it did, it only takes a few seconds to become a criminal!)

 

So, you went to a site that you KNOW is illegally distributing copyrighted material, then the site even gave you a warning that what you are doing might be illegal in the country.   Your decision:  to the heck with the law, I am going to watch my Transformers movie because I can.   Then you are angry because you were caught and you blame the government for letting you break the law.   So now you want blanket censorship so you can't shoot yourself again on the foot.

 

When you see a website in which you can stream for free current new movies EVERYONE will know it can't be legal.    I bet even my 8 years old kid will tell me something is wrong there.   You are angry because in your country you could break the law all the time and nothing happened, but here you were caught.

 

Maybe while we are here we should put a sign in every traffic light in Germany, "If you do not stop when the light is red you might get a fine".   You know, in case the people from my country who never stop in red lights at night decide to come here for holidays.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, marcolopes said:

Oh, and another thing: MANY of the cases I came across are from people overseas VISITING people in Germany!!!! And let's be honest, even if the foreign person is located and identified, he could live if a very poor country, and be faced with a fine several times what he earns in a month!! All of this must be taking into consideration! It's not the foreigner's fault that Germany is a "rich" country and they just fine everyone with THOUSANDS of euros for "inadvertently" sharing a movie with and obscure streaming software...)

It's not a fine. It's compensation for damages. If you smash your neighbor's BMW's window you have to pay him how much it costs to install a new one. The price doesn't change on account of you being dirt poor or a Billionaire.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, sneaker said:

It's not a fine. It's compensation for damages. If you smash your neighbor's BMW's window you have to pay him how much it costs to install a new one. The price doesn't change on account of you being dirt poor or a Billionaire.

 

But my kids smashed up the BMW how was I supposed to know, and when we do that at home we are fighting capitalism, I didnt know it would be punished here, why doesnt the government ban BWMs or put up signs telling me its illegal.  Its not fair :( 

 

Maybe we could get a warning for trhe first car we smash up.  Does anyone know of any other car brands I can smash in germany, is it only german cars?

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

But my kids smashed up the BMW how was I supposed to know, and when we do that at home we are fighting capitalism, I didnt know it would be punished here, why doesnt the government ban BWMs or put up signs telling me its illegal.  Its not fair :( 

 

Maybe we could get a warning for trhe first car we smash up.  Does anyone know of any other car brands I can smash in germany, is it only german cars?

 

There is a world of difference between smashing up someone's car and someone going on this popcorn website.

 

You and I know it's illegal of course. We're internet savvy enough. But a 12 year old can go on youtube and watch whatever they want all day long. Then the kid can follow a link in the comments and go to popcorntime, install a program in 10 seconds and start watching something. Even if, after another 10 seconds, they realise it might not be so kosher and they stop, that's it. The damage is done. 10 seconds was enough. And the fine for that could cost more than the repair of smashing a window on a BMW.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, theGman said:

But a 12 year old can go on youtube and watch whatever they want all day long. Then the kid can follow a link in the comments and go to popcorntime, install a program in 10 seconds and start watching something. Even if, after another 10 seconds, they realise it might not be so kosher and they stop, that's it. The damage is done. 10 seconds was enough.

 

The whole thing comes down to whether or not children know that what they are doing is wrong and, frankly, whether you can trust them to be online without supervision.  They should at least know they shouldnt be installing anything without checking with an adult (popcorn time for example).

 

Quite aside from illegal torrenting, there are any number of things children (or anyone else) can get themselves in trouble with online.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎25‎.‎03‎.‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎52‎:‎43, zwiebelfisch said:

  Not sure if you still watch DVDs but most of them have about 5 minutes of unskipable warnings, as they do (or did last time i was there) in the cinema.

Exactly.

 

Here is the warning from "The IT crowd":

 

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For People who have dealt with Jurato and Lawyers:

- how long to wait for a reply, after paying the fee and signing the papers?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now