Accused of torrenting copyrighted material

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I haven't heard of anyone getting an Abmahnung despite using Hide My Ass but they do store IP addresses of their users and have cooperated with government agencies in the past with the most prominent case being the Sony hack. Make of that what you will.

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2 hours ago, gusten said:

I see that most of you have received these letters. Has anybody actually been taken to court? Any chance they would stop pursuing after receiving the wiederspruch?

There are lots of cases in which they have sued after objection to the Mahnbescheid but they don't do it in every case. No one really knows the system by which they decide who to pursue and who to leave alone. It's a gamble.

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So I got a letter from Waldorf Frommer in 2013. I binned it and heard nothing until 2 months ago. They sent a reminder with a final date. then another changing the date and now a 3rd reminder. They don't even have what movie or when just please pay or you can go to court and pay a €5000 fine. I will wait for the yellow letter but I hope they see I am not answering and leave me alone. Having got a yellow letter from another issue. I will do all I can not to give them money. I don't download and the stress they cause people should be the crime.

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1 hour ago, positivethinking said:

So I got a letter from Waldorf Frommer in 2013. I binned it and heard nothing until 2 months ago. They sent a reminder with a final date. then another changing the date and now a 3rd reminder. They don't even have what movie or when just please pay or you can go to court and pay a €5000 fine. I will wait for the yellow letter but I hope they see I am not answering and leave me alone. Having got a yellow letter from another issue. I will do all I can not to give them money. I don't download and the stress they cause people should be the crime.

I believe with the yellow letter that you can appeal against the decision which in your case I would ask for evidence of what,where,when etc.

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12 hours ago, sneaker said:

There are lots of cases in which they have sued after objection to the Mahnbescheid but they don't do it in every case. No one really knows the system by which they decide who to pursue and who to leave alone. It's a gamble.

I believe that is how they decide who to pursue as well.Throw enough shit and hope it sticks.I know people who have fought this all the way and not 1 of them has ended up having to pay the fine.Maybe just luck who knows.

 

Do we know who actually gives them the right to demand fines for this and does any part of the fine go back to the original content holder ?

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So you think responding Mahnbesheid is a bad idea if so far I haven't had absolutely no communication with them whatsoever? May be they think I don't even live in the country anymore and drop the case? Or should I absolutely do the wiederspruch?

Thank you for your responses.

 

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Gusten...

 

You say that you didnt download the film...   Have you seen the film? Did you download it when you were in a country where this activity is permited?

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Nope I have not seen the film, and I have not downloaded it and I would gladly take a lie-detector test if the court asks me to take one. 

I do not know how this whole thing happened and that is why I want to fight. Frankly I do not even know how this torrent/filesharing thing works cuz I am shit with technology. 

My defense is the 1 minute and 26 seconds of movie download I am being accused of. If I wanted to see the movie, I would watch at least most of it if not all.

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2 hours ago, gusten said:

So you think responding Mahnbesheid is a bad idea if so far I haven't had absolutely no communication with them whatsoever? May be they think I don't even live in the country anymore and drop the case? Or should I absolutely do the wiederspruch?

If you don't object to the Mahnbescheid within 2 weeks they quasi-automatically get the right to enforce their claim via Vollstreckungsbescheid/Gerichtsvollzieher.

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On 1/4/2016, 21:03:26, sneaker said:

I haven't heard of anyone getting an Abmahnung despite using Hide My Ass

 

On this thread alone, there are 118 pages of stories of people being sued for illegal bittorrent downloads. Not a single one of those involves connections over a VPN.

 

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but they do store IP addresses of their users and have cooperated with government agencies in the past with the most prominent case being the Sony hack. Make of that what you will.

 

 

Theoretically yes. But then these guys would have to deal with authorities in two different jurisdictions: they would need a first court order for the VPN (in, say, the UK) to release your real (i.e., German) IP address, if the VPN keeps logs and if it's still there (logs are periodically purged). If and when they get this information from the VPN (and that's a big IF), they'll need a second court order, this time from a German court, so that your German ISP will map your German IP address to your name and address. Remember, these guys are after easy money. They'll go after the easy targets. See the 118 pages on this thread.

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On 2/4/2016, 09:53:33, gusten said:

I do not know how this whole thing happened and that is why I want to fight. Frankly I do not even know how this torrent/filesharing thing works cuz I am shit with technology.

 

Write to your ISP and ask them whether they can confirm the accuracy of the information provided in that letter you got from Waldorf Frommer. If the ISP says "we can't confirm it, sorry", then write back to Waldorf Frommer saying that (1) you have no recollection of ever downloading or watching that movie, in whole or in part and that (2) their allegations could not be substantiated by your ISP (include the response from the ISP). They'll probably drop the case.

 

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My defense is the 1 minute and 26 seconds of movie download I am being accused of. If I wanted to see the movie, I would watch at least most of it if not all.

 

That's how bittorrent works. You exchange small chunks of each file (in this case, the file containing the movie) with different servers. Once you have all the pieces (from different sources), bittorrent stitches the whole thing up in a single file. The movie studios (or the "agents" they hire) set up spy servers that act like normal servers, so that they can record the IP addresses of whoever's involved in such file sharing.

 

Btw, you weren't accused of downloading the movie, but of uploading a chunk of it (again, this is how bittorrent works).

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13 minutes ago, Ctrl-Alt-Delete said:

Theoretically yes. But then these guys would have to deal with authorities in two different jurisdictions: they would need a first court order for the VPN (in, say, the UK) to release your real (i.e., German) IP address, if they keep logs and if it's still there (logs are periodically purged). If and when they get this information from the VPN (and that's a big IF), they'll need a second court order, this time from a German court, so that your German ISP will map your German IP address to your name and address. Remember, these guys are after easy money. They'll go after the easy targets. See the 118 pages on this thread.

I agree. Nonetheless, I'd rather use a VPN that does not log in the first place.

 

4 minutes ago, Ctrl-Alt-Delete said:

 

Write to your ISP and ask them whether they can confirm the accuracy of the information provided in that letter you got from Waldorf Frommer. If the ISP says "we can't confirm it, sorry", then write back to Waldorf Frommer saying that (1) you have no recollection of ever downloading or watching that movie, in whole or in part and that (2) their allegations could not be substantiated by your ISP (include the response from the ISP). They'll probably drop the case.

That's a tricky thing because ISPs are supposed to delete the data as soon as they have for-filled the court request for privacy reasons. See the answer of Deutsche Telekom (esp. the last paragraph):

http://www.abgemahnt-hilfe.de/news/erneute-anfrage-bei-der-telekom.html

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18 minutes ago, sneaker said:

I agree. Nonetheless, I'd rather use a VPN that does not log in the first place.

 

Of course.

According to the your link, though, German ISPs keep logs for 7 days only, so in order for the lawyers to get to one's name and address in Germany, they'll need to get an answer from the VPN provider before those 7 days are up.  Yet another spanner in their works.

 

Plus, there's the following passage which can be interpreted to mean that the lawyers would additionally need to prove that the German IP they are after was used to connect to one of their servers, which is not the case if one is connecting through a VPN. In fact, many VPNs deliberately use shared IP addresses so as to offer their clients the benefit of plausible deniability ("there were 100 people using that same VPN IP address at the same time")

 

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Danach prüft das Gericht, ob der Antragsteller wirklich der Inhaber der Urheber- bzw. Leistungsschutzrechte ist, ob es sich um eine offensichtliche Urheberrechtsverletzung in gewerblichem Ausmaß handelt und ob IP-Adressen inklusive den Zeitstempeln im Hinblick auf ein konkretes Filesharing-Angebot seriös festgestellt wurden.

 

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That's a tricky thing because ISPs are supposed to delete the data as soon as they have for-filled the court request for privacy reasons. See the answer of Deutsche Telekom (esp. the last paragraph):

http://www.abgemahnt-hilfe.de/news/erneute-anfrage-bei-der-telekom.html

 

Interesting.  I wonder what's left that they could use as proof if the case were to go to court, then.

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49 minutes ago, Ctrl-Alt-Delete said:

 

On this thread alone, there are 118 pages of stories of people being sued for illegal bittorrent downloads. 

 

 

 

Not sure about this statement...

 

People are being sued for "UP loading"... not down loading!!

 

There is a huge difference...   I download loads of movies for my daughter from apple....    Never had anything but a receipt from them!

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15 minutes ago, Ctrl-Alt-Delete said:

Interesting.  I wonder what's left that they could use as proof if the case were to go to court, then.

Well, the lawyers get the proof from Telekom, then Telekom deletes the data. But the lawyers still have the proof, of course. Basically, the courts trust the lawyers to not have falsified any data.

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1 hour ago, sneaker said:

Well, the lawyers get the proof from Telekom, then Telekom deletes the data. But the lawyers still have the proof, of course. Basically, the courts trust the lawyers to not have falsified any data.

 

 

I wonder: has this one-sided blind faith in the lawyers of the accusers been confirmed by a real case that actually went to court?

 

 

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I'm not sure what you are getting at?

There must have been thousands of such cases in German courts already. Many (probably most) held up, some don't.

 

 

 

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Just now, sneaker said:

There must have been thousands of such cases in German courts already. Many (probably most) held up, some don't.

 

That's what I'm wondering about. How have the courts decided on such cases, and what did they consider to be sufficient evidence of wrongdoing?

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1 hour ago, SpiderPig said:

Not sure about this statement...

 

People are being sued for "UP loading"... not down loading!!

 

What a lot of people do not realise is that when you use a torrent you're not just downloading the movie you are actually sharing it with other users of the torrent.

This is why sites like Uploaded,Rapidgator etc get served with notices to remove certain content yet the person who downloaded the file doesn't because with this sort of downloading compared to torrents you are not actually sharing the file and it is still a massive grey area.

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On 06/04/2016, 00:31:32, Keleth said:

What a lot of people do not realise is that when you use a torrent you're not just downloading the movie you are actually sharing it with other users of the torrent.

This is why sites like Uploaded,Rapidgator etc get served with notices to remove certain content yet the person who downloaded the file doesn't because with this sort of downloading compared to torrents you are not actually sharing the file and it is still a massive grey area.

And also that when streaming you also download, otherwise your computer couldn't decode the data. 

I think they are going after file sharers until now. I wonder when does these cases expire I mean surely lawyers can't take 10 years to file right? 

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