Accused of torrenting copyrighted material

2,670 posts in this topic

We paid our lawyer ca. € 300 when we caught so that we wouldn't have to pay any fine. It has been some years now and we've heard nothing else.

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after 114 pages of people discussing torrenting accusations, my question is, do Germans have the same problems? Or  do these vulture lawyers go after foreigners? (like jehovas witnesses go after italians, which is something I have noted)

Foreigners are less likely to have rechtschutzversicherung and much less likely to understand what the rules actually say.

 

Or do the Germans never download things?

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16 minutes ago, mako1 said:

after 114 pages of people discussing torrenting accusations, my question is, do Germans have the same problems? Or  do these vulture lawyers go after foreigners? (like jehovas witnesses go after italians, which is something I have noted)

Foreigners are less likely to have rechtschutzversicherung and much less likely to understand what the rules actually say.

 

Or do the Germans never download things?

ofc it must happen to Germans as well, 

But, Germans will not come for help in an ext-pat forum, they will be aware of the rules, the <generally> follow the rules. 

 

I think they donwload but not upload (i.e not p2p/torrenting) as I have heard several times in locker room of my local gym... 

 

We, foreigners, come from countries where the fight on copyright is not so harsh/in-existent 

 

 

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2 hours ago, mako1 said:

Foreigners are less likely to have rechtschutzversicherung...

 

Most (all?) Rechtschutzversicherungen explicitly exclude the copywright stuff.

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2 hours ago, WhyNot_DE said:

ofc it must happen to Germans as well, 

But, Germans will not come for help in an ext-pat forum, they will be aware of the rules, the <generally> follow the rules.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I think mako1's point is that English-speaking foreigners living in Germany (that's what most TT members are) have so-far posted 2261 messages on this "Accused of torrenting" thread. That suggests that extraordinary numbers of English speaking German residents are getting clobbered for torrenting copyright material (or not, as is sometimes the case).

If proportionally as many German citizens were getting stung in the same way, this would suggest something of an epidemic.

 

Imagine that for every page of this thread there was 1 supposed copyright infringement... that would make 114 cases. An average payout of 500 Euros would mean 57,000 Euros total payout from this thread. Supposing there are 20,000 TT members (would be interesting to know real number, but was > 11,000 as of June 2009), then we make up 0.025% of the German populace. Let's say 0.05% of the German populace who could feasibly get stung for torrenting.

All in all, that would suggest that over the past 6 1/2 years, there would have been 114 Million Euros in payouts for torrenting copyright infringement in Germany - if TT is representative of the people nationwide targeted for torrenting crimes.

That's big business.

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6 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

Yes it is big business:  plus of course the business for other lawyers to help you.

 

My pal of 30+ years (Rechtsanwalt + Notar) says this all came about when far too many lawyers were trained & they had to look for something to do!

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The GEMA is one of the many burdens to the successful development of a German IT industry...an agency whose former boss through that the Internet is just a big shopping mall. The GEMA should be abolished and replaced with something more in line with 2016, not with 1986.

The RIAA compared to the GEMA looks like a charitable organization...

 

The TLC industry is another joke in this country...with bad mobile and broadband coverage and service.

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13 hours ago, Route66 said:

The GEMA is one of the many burdens to the successful development of a German IT industry...

Good for the development of VPN services.

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So I got a mahnbescheid (court order) from Waldorf Frommer last week. Case is running since 2013 so this is their last year having any chance to sqeeze a few euro out of me. 

Upto this point i always got a mahnung and replied back with the modified eu letter. 

So I decided to get the laywers on board. Kanzlei Koesmann (offices in munich/berlin) . All communication through email (which suits me). They sent me the forms, filled them in and scanned them back per email. They sent me back a pdf of their replay to Waldorf Fromann and will handle it from there. Cost 300 plus 57 vat. 

I have another case which will probably go the same way next year, they will do it for 200 euro which should be about the going rate because i did not get a mahnbescheid for this case yet and it's less work for them . http://hoesmann.eu/leistungen/abmahnungen/

 

a bit of advice. Look at the post from elect http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/279097-accused-of-torrenting-copyrighted-material/?page=112  , the links in the folder. 

If you are doing illegal torrenting use at a minimum a vpn. I use private internet access and use it also to alllow me to watch irish tv, netflix if i go for them, mubi (recommend that, 40 euro a year and legal). 

 

The best solution is to use a seedbox, download is much faster and it's completly safe. 

 

all the best everyone. 
 

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So what happens when you get the court order. Do you actually have to go to court, taking time off work, travel etc or can you pay another lawyer even more to handle it? I'm getting close to three years as well after last encounter (august  2013) and would like to know what to expect. 

 

I'm not sure what piss me off more.  The blood suckers sending out fines accusing random people just because they happen to be on the Internet contract, or GEMA censoring the Internet because it "may" contain copyrighted material. 

 

Why isn't btw liquor companies responsible for drunk and driving, car manufacturers for speeding and gun manufacturers for murders? They have as much control over the use of their products as I have over my Internet connection. 

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open to correction here. 

So they send you the mahnbescheid, you have 2 weeks to return your answer . You can contest it, admit it , partially admit . Depending on this the next step can be

admit --> you need to pay up or you could end up with a baliff at your door (you will get letters beforehand) . If you contest it , your opposing lawyer needs to begin the process to threathern or to initiate court proceedings against you , which if they go to court will take up their valuable time . What you could end up doing is your lawyer and theirs end up settling on paying a very reduced fine or you could instruct your lawyer to tough it out and take your chances with them really taking you to court which as has been posted, very rarely happens. 

 

what am i doing ? I'll post in 2017 when my sentence is up or before that when i know anyone reading this cannot use it to my disadvantage, however unlikely that probably is.  But anyway it mostly depends on the reaction from Frommer I suppose. 

 

So for you Rymdmannen, you haven't even got to Mahnbescheid yet, amateur :)

 

 

some reading for you

http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/279097-accused-of-torrenting-copyrighted-material/?page=61#comment-2974329 

there is a long post there from me padjo  and in that post an entry from bal00 right near the end, it explains much better than i how things seem to go/work

 

again look at the links in the folder from elect (great work, thanks) http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/279097-accused-of-torrenting-copyrighted-material/?page=112

 

 

 

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Why isn't btw liquor companies responsible for drunk and driving, car manufacturers for speeding and gun manufacturers for murders? They have as much control over the use of their products as I have over my Internet connection.

 

Not true. You can secure your internet connection so that others can't use it. 

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On 1/26/2016, 2:43:49, padjo said:

So I got a mahnbescheid (court order) from Waldorf Frommer last week. Case is running since 2013 so this is their last year having any chance to sqeeze a few euro out of me. 

Padjo, I was in exactly the same position 3 years ago. I'd already paid off the leeches (or so I thought). I sent back the mahnbescheid which meant they needed to compile a proper case against me. This didn't happen of course and now 3 years later I'm finally free.  

 

I still can't believe that these bloodsuckers are allowed to operate like this. It's legalised robbery.

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10 hours ago, fraufruit said:

 

Not true. You can secure your internet connection so that others can't use it. 

 

You didn't understand my point. You rent a car and drive to fast you get the fine, not the owner of the car. 

 

You give your visitors access to your Internet, you get the fines and the lawyers explicitly say the don't give a shit who did it, it was your Internet and they want money for it. This is nothing else than legal robbery, that only works because the justice system is not up to date with reality. 

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11 hours ago, padjo said:

 

So for you Rymdmannen, you haven't even got to Mahnbescheid yet, amateur :)

 

 

Haha, yes. I'm an amateur and trying to become an expert so I know what to do. I dealt with all of those letters mid 2013, signed the modified letter and got a few reminders that they got the letter but they want the money. Last thing I heard was the "final" threat that they will go to court. That was almost three years ago so I guess there will be a "re-start" letter soon to keep the case alive, or I get a yellow letter. 

 

 

 

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You didn't understand my point. You rent a car and drive to fast you get the fine, not the owner of the car.

 

If you want to play by those rules then your visitor is responsible for the fine and should pay up as long as you told them not to down/upload stuff.

 

You rent a car - you are responsible.

You pay for internet - you are responsible.

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13 hours ago, Rymdmannen said:

You give your visitors access to your Internet, you get the fines and the lawyers explicitly say the don't give a shit who did it, it was your Internet and they want money for it. This is nothing else than legal robbery, that only works because the justice system is not up to date with reality. 

 

This has never happened to me, but in the experience of my friends who have had these letters the lawyers are quite happy to sue whoever did it instead of the person who owns the connection provided you prove who it was.  I dont think there is any problem with that part of it at all.

 

Much more worrying to me is the offer to drop the case if you pay up early and avoid anyone having to prove anything to a court.  This means that a large part of the whole process is occuring outside of the proper legal system with all the checks and balances that implies.  Frankly if I got a letter about torrenting, I wouldnt take it to court even though I would be innocent (because I dont torrent, not even legal stuff like linux distros) i would just go through the usual process of finding a lawyer and blah blah.  And that to me is worrying.  How many of the people paying fines are innocent?  I guess not many, but we will never know.

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Yes, Zwiebelfish I agree to that. I didn't pay up because I decided if they want money they have to work for it. Unfortunately I had to give money to the other side since there is no way I could have handled this legal jargon in German. 

 

What I find most worrying is that some people really don't understand how stupid it is, and find it completely normal, that someone should be held responsible for something they have no control over.  

 

Shall I look over my guests shoulder? Scan their computer to make sure there are no programs that boot automatically? Have them sign a waiver? 

 

With the logic that I pay for Internet then I am responsible, the top level provider should be the one going after. 

 

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