Accused of torrenting copyrighted material

2,670 posts in this topic

 

So if the predatory lawyer's firms are gathering IP addresses that way - even for 1 minute - they are themselves breaking the law by downloading/uploading copyrighted material, exactly the same as the one they are accusing.

Downloading/uploading copyrighted material is only illegal if you don't have the copyright holder's consent. Since these lawyers work on behalf of the copyright holders that argument isn't very strong.

 

 

The second way anyone including predatory law firms can gather IP information is to ask an ISP who of their customers is downloading with P2P software.

As far as I know this does not happen because it would indeed be illegal.

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I think I read earlier in this thread something about Frommer winning a download case involving a movie released by Sony Pictures. Sony never saw a dime of the awarded penalty. The copyright holder did not hire Frommer for that case nor any other case as far as I know. That's one of the main points I'm raising. These law firms are acting without a client's directive, they are acting on their own initiative. It's legal here in Germany, but there may be fine points where they cross that line. Those are the points worth looking at. Such as how they gather their evidence.

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Welcome to Toytown, jsc55

 

Obviously, (and understandably in view of it's length), you haven't read the entire thread or you probably would have realized that both your points have been discussed, and dismissed, several times already.

 

Tip: To locate individual posts in long TT topic threads you can put one or two key words into the 'Search topic' box (bottom left). Your result will show a list of snippets (in some cases several pages long). Clicking on the curly grey 'snapback' arrows will land you on posts containing your key word/s. Use your browser back button to return to the list while working through it.

 

As to your first point, the reason/s why Abmahnung lawyers, or their contracted agents, are legitimately entitled to monitor traffic on p2p channels by up/downloading copyrighted material (and thereby collect indications of illegitimate uploading from individual IPs) is because they have a mandate to do so from the original copyright-holder or one of their appointed agents in Germany.

 

Second point: Armed with a copy of their client's mandate and such indications of suspicious activity they can, and routinely do, request disclosure of IP information from ISPs. Almost all ISPs know that, under the current federal copyright-holder protection laws, provided the indications are credible the German courts would have no option but to order them to release that information upon application. Consequently most ISPs have long since ceased to waste their legal teams time trying to stall the inevitable and simply comply with the requests.

 

HTH

 

2B

 

ETA: Btw, German courts have been known to take action against lawyers who were shown to be acting predatorily without just cause or legitimate reason.

 

One most disreputable culprit who had been active since the pre-internet days and responsible for training a whole generation of copycat scum-buckets became such a pariah amongst his legal peers that he took his own life about 4 or 5 years ago.

 

A search for 'RedTube' will show a more recent international entrapment scam set up by two law practices run by pupils of his. They'd used illegitimate methods in the hope of squeezing millions of Euros out of embarrassed marks for downloading crappy porn. Both lawyers were heavily fined, given prison sentences and disbarred. Their accomplices also had their collars felt.

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I actually know people working for an ISP who have been routinely answering police and lawyer requests for IP and customer information for the past years. Sad but true.

That's all I'll say about this. Be very very careful, and never touch a torrent.

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@2B sorry for the repetition. Perhaps it's such a common issue that the repetition isn't so bad. It seems that the present state of affairs legally defaults to the use of an EU and attempts to haggle for the lowest cost/fine.

@Metall if one knows how to program one's computer to disconnect all internet activity if the VPN connection is interrupted, then one can do what one likes with privacy. I of course never do anything illegal on the internet or otherwise, but privacy is something I value.

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One last thing worth noting, then I'm not going to post anymore since I have no experience w copyright infringement in Germany.

Which is: if Waldorf Frommer is as clever as all that, then they have someone monitoring this thread. Said user would undoubtedly and with good arguments provided, post on the thread to the effect that in the end it's not worth fighting such an Abmahnung, but better to just pay up.

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@2B sorry for the repetition. Perhaps it's such a common issue that the repetition isn't so bad. It seems that the present state of affairs legally defaults to the use of an EU and attempts to haggle for the lowest cost/fine.

I can tell you that while indeed most users agree to an UE, many people simply do not pay. They are not suing everyone. Of course they don't reveal their strategy about who to sue and who to give up on. In the end: it's your decision, your risk. Some even take them to court and win. If you try to fight you should not try some naive defense. They have won lots of cases and so far no one was able to win by showing that Waldorf Frommer was acting without being hired by the copyright holder in question. You are not the first to come up with these ideas.

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I think I read earlier in this thread something about Frommer winning a download case involving a movie released by Sony Pictures. Sony never saw a dime of the awarded penalty. The copyright holder did not hire Frommer for that case nor any other case as far as I know. That's one of the main points I'm raising. These law firms are acting without a client's directive, they are acting on their own initiative. It's legal here in Germany, but there may be fine points where they cross that line. Those are the points worth looking at. Such as how they gather their evidence.

 

I think you misread or misunderstood something. Law firms are acting on behalf of their clients. The UEs they're soliciting are always in the name of the rights holder, and that's the only way it can work. A law firm can't just go out and send cease and desist letters to random people about copyrighted material that they have nothing to do with. That wouldn't work for practical reasons, because the rights holder has to be named in the UE, not the law firm, and it would also be highly illegal.

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got another letter today from Frommer. they are looking for 815 euros.

 

sollte diese letzte zahlungsfrist abermals missachtet werden, empfehlen wir unserer mandantschaft die sofortige gerichtliche geltendmachung ihrer zahlungsansprueche

 

google translate

should this last payment period should be ignored agian, we will recommend that our clientele commence immediate judicial geltendmachung their zahlungsansprueche

 

worst case scenario, they sue me and i pay a laywer, 600 euros (Solmecke), who tells em where to jump.

 

Best case i get a letter every now and again which i summarize and post on Toytown and get greenies.

 

Either way, not the biggest deal in the world or seems so now.

 

After using xbmc and it's various plugins, dowloading movies/tv shows seems almost primitive when you can just play it and not have to wait for the download to finish and make sure your vpn is running or use a seedbox. I still use torrents for the odd irish tv show but i have vastly reduced, because of convenience mainly not because of considerations of legality or being hassled (a minor plus).

 

lets see

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worst case scenario, they sue me and i pay a laywer, 600 euros (Solmecke), who tells em where to jump.

That's not the wort case as hiring a lawyer does not necessarily imply them giving up their claims or you winning in front of a court. Even specialized lawyers will often recommend negotiating a settlement when push comes to shove.

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If I had negotiated with them about paying the amount in late 2014, that would also be problematic. This doesn't reset the 3 years, but the statute of limitations can't kick in unless at least 3 months have passed since one party has withdrawn from the negotiations. So if I had negotiated with them and they had told me or I had told them to fuck off on Nov 31st, that would extend the deadline until the end of Feb 2015. Had that conversation happened in August, it would have had no effect, and if it had taken place on Dec 31st 2014, that would have meant an extension until the end of March 2015.

As far as I understand every negotiation within the three years will pause said three years for the length of the negotiations, so even talking with them in August can be bad. The three months rule is just another thing to look out for.

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Torrenting and stealing copyrighted material, and encouraging others to do that is not very nice for a self-styled Pentecostal Christian. Tsk, tsk.

Who knows, there maybe some self-styled Kopimists here on this thread. ;)

 

 

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it won't get to court, lawyer will shoot them down. even if it does, a couple of hundred extra for costs. So worst case scenario was almost the wost case scenario. Forgot i was in pedantic Germany.

I could be brought to court and end up in jail in theory, probably as likely as me getting a sex change and becoming an ISIS bride (because i'm 30 years too old :))

 

http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=279097&st=2075

Adam Sweeney

"Personally I went with Solmecke because its my best chance of avoiding paying any settlement money or going to court (around 1-2% of theirs do I believe), plus they cover all future letters from other infringements which I know could be coming, all for a 595 Euro one off payment to the "good guys". The correspondence these guys fight back with is impressive, plus they speak english if you need it. They have the best and highest number of references in this thread for good reason."

 

your three year reset seemed to have been dealt with a few pages back but you seem to doubt that it's limited to 3 years or at least throw up a question mark on it. Maybe this can be further or reclarified.

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it won't get to court, lawyer will shoot them down.

Munich is WF's home turf. What makes you so certain your lawyer can simply shoot them down? He gave you a guarantee for that? (rhetorical question, I know you haven't hired one yet)

It was mentioned only 1% to 2% of Solmecke's clients go to court, but:

- you are not one of those clients at the moment

- it does not imply Solmecke shot 98% down. If a client agrees to a settlement he did not go to court either.

 

 

even if it does, a couple of hundred extra for costs. So worst case scenario was almost the wost case scenario.

So, ask yourself what's gonna happen if you lose:

Who is gonna pay the court?

Who is gonna pay the copyright holder/Waldorf Frommer for the costs of going to court? (on top of the damages/Abmahnung costs)

Adam Sweeny said Solmecke wanted 595 Euros but do these costs include representation in court or just all the out of court paperwork?

 

 

your three year reset seemed to have been dealt with a few pages back but you seem to doubt that it's limited to 3 years or at least throw up a question mark on it. Maybe this can be further or reclarified.

I was mainly hinting at the things mentioned by bal00.

 

All of that being said:

I know many people just get away with not paying, even without a lawyer. Not saying your strategy is bad but let's not be naive: hiring a lawyer is no guarantee of anything. The additional costs can be more than just a few hundred Euros.

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Nothing in life is certain, except death (even that is debatable)

 

so yes, as i said i may have to go to court, if i refuse their offer, or if they refuse my offer ... or or or . So that 1 or 2% , what percentage refused to settle on either side, you or i don't know. The courts costs are outlined in a pdf doc i linked to earlier this week.

 

I deal in likelyhood and probabalities, you seem to want to win arguments no matter how improbable and unlikely they are, which to me is just childish.

 

Not saying you are factually wrong, just that to me it's over the top.

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Hi Guys,

why are you still going to lawyers with this crap? Have you not read my previous posts about using the unterlassungs Erklärung? This stuff truly works. It has so far helped two other guys get off.

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What if you just send a letter back saying it was not me? I can not watch eveyone in my house why would I be guilty for they actions.

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Hi Duscholux,

 

I'm not going to any lawyer, it's just that in the very unlikely event that i get sued, i have one lined up. I am following the same tactic as you die . After the modified UE , ignore their letters (o.k you resend a modified EU each time, i don't think that's necessary) until they piss off or sue. You are right, it is a scam , however legal it is.

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why are you still going to lawyers with this crap? Have you not read my previous posts about using the unterlassungs Erklärung? This stuff truly works. It has so far helped two other guys get off.

The UE is not some magic to make them go away, it's (legally) the main point of any Abmahnung* - that's why they include a template for you.

 

(* shame on those who say it's for the money ;) )

 

 

What if you just send a letter back saying it was not me? I can not watch eveyone in my house why would I be guilty for they actions.

It's complicated. Google "Störerhaftung" and "Sekundäre Darlegungslast" or ask a lawyer.

 

http://www.internet-law.de/2014/01/schwierige-gegenwehr-die-sog-sekundaere-darlegungslast-in-filesharing-verfahren.html

http://von-wegen-abmahnung.de/tauschboersen/stoererhaftung

 

In any case: contacting them should be well thought-out, you don't want to give them any information they could use against you. Unfortunately, no one knows how they decide who to sue and who to leave alone. Thoroughly inform yourself first, then do or do not contact them.

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