Pension insurance obligations (Rentenversicherung)

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So totally confused...so John G. expect an email from me! I am over 45 and will hopefully be relocating in a year or so. So that means, I need to have this coverage. Does a Rurup Pension, which I plan to contribute to, cover this or will I need yet another type of insurance?

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Hi taxgirl17: well, I´ve just been rereading this thread myself. What seems clear is that´ll depend on the Ausländeramt itself where you´ll be relocating to. I don´t think this is an area causing massive problems as yet. Perhaps still more anecdotal. I have plenty of over-45 American clients, none of whom have had to show an Altersvorsorge when they come over. Plus, German insurance companies in the main want proof of long term residency rights, including being in the tax system ( one of the main points behind signing up for a Rürup pension is the tax benefit! ). You can´t get into the tax system without the visa/work permit....

 

If you let me know where you expect to move to, I can enquire!

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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Well, I had so far cases in Munich, Berlin and Frankfurt to this regards.

BERLIN would accept nothing but a RÜRUP plan because you can't retrieve and squander the invested money

MUNICH was a bit more relaxed and would allow pension plans which you could cash in or turn into an annuity come retirement

FRANKFURT was somewhere inbetween...strange as it may seem.

 

Guideline: don't ask about this unless they bring this point up. They might not think about it, it does not appear to be common rule (yet), though I would say that it makes sense from a German public point of view.

If they do come up with this issue, have them describe exactly WHAT kind of plan they need/like, how much capital you have to have accrued by reaching the legal retirement age etc, because this would be then crucial information for your John, I mean for your financial advisor :lol:

 

Cheerio

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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Hey John, it will be Munich. Since it is definitely my plan to get the Rurup Pension once I am able, I think I should be okay. I actually like the idea that you cannot withdraw funds before. I forgot...what is the age? Is it 60 or would it be 67?

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If you start a plan this year, earliest time to draw from your retirement plan (RÜRUp/BASIS) is 61. Starting next year this will be moved for new contracts to 63 years.

Munich is a bit more easy than Berlin, I found, good luck!

 

Cheerio

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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taxgirl: if you´re going to be in Munich, why not contact Starshollow? Same neck of the woods in case you need a personal consultation when you come over here.

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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Thanks, John and Starshollow! You sure, John? I know I have been peppering you with questions, and I didn't want you to think ill of me if I went to another broker. Although you are correct in regards to location!

 

Kris

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Now here is somthing unheard of: two "competitors" sending the client to the other one.... :D

Fact is, while John and I run totally separate businesses, we think alike and consider each other colleague rather than anything else. Since John gave you a lot of good advice already, I think you could deal with him because for the setting up of the RÜRUP plan an advisor does not need to be present in your "hood". Same is true for many insurance issues. I have clients allover Germany as has John.

However, if you like to see someone face to face, then of course I will be happy to assist you just like John would in Hamburg. We owe each other in the meantime so many good meals and bottles that if we ever meet somewhere in Germany face to face to exchange all those.... none of us will survive that party.

 

Feel free to chose, no bad feelings from either of us regardless of your choice.

Cheerio

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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No worries, taxgirl! Kind of you to ask, though! I do reckon in your case a personal consultation down in Munich would be useful and Starshollow´s a great guy. Just make sure he doesn´t confuse you with his Bavarian accent!! :D

 

Cheerio!

 

Edit: you posted at the same time, Starshollow!

 

Second edit: must smile, Kris! You´re not Chris!

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Hey - I come from Haavaad Yaat and speak like thaaaat...

Cheerio

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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Thank you very much, gentlemen...either way, I consider myself very lucky to have someone to go to when the times comes!

 

Kris

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Hello,

 

I have an appointment at the KVR later this month to extend my work visa. I came to Germany 3 years ago and was originally only permitted to work as a freelance English teacher, but thanks to a forum in Toytown :D , I learned how to switch my visa to "beschäftigung erlaubt" while keeping permission to freelance as an English teacher today.

 

Now to the point... On the checklist of documents I was given for renewal of my visa there is one item which I don't quite understand:

 

Nachweis über eine Alterversorgung (z.B. Lebensversicherung mit einem Garantiebetrag vom 50.000€)

 

I'm still relatively young and clueless and don't understand the world of insurance exactly. I asked the lady at the KVR what this meant and she said it could be either Lebensversicherung or Rentenversicherung.

 

From what I have gathered, there are three types of this "Alterversorgung":

1. Obligatory Rentenversicherung (applies to freelance language teachers, among others)

2. Private Rentenversicherung

3. Private Lebensversicherung

 

Am I correct?

 

My question is, taken purely in the context of extending my visa, is it sufficient to choose one of the three? (Any advice on the cheapest?) Or is number 1 the absolute must and the others simply additional-- meaning, if I show up at the KVR with proof of a private Renten- or Lebensversicherung, will they still ask to see proof of payment into the obligatory one? (In which case it would make most sense to only provide proof of number 1 and not overcomplicate things for myself by adding on extra insurances)

 

Whichever it is that I have to get, I must get my butt in motion as the appointment is in less than two weeks!

 

Thank you kindly,

 

ML

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the KVR expects you to bring a contract under numbers 2 and 3...because the public pension you are referring to under number 1 does not offer a guaranteed "capital" in any way or form.

What the KVR tries to establish here is that you set up a private pension plan where you'll have 50.000 EUR of guaranteed capital accrued by the time of age 67 (legal pension age). Therefore contact an independent broker to set you up with such a plan. If they allow a "Lebensversicherung" for you, which is in effect a whole life insurance scheme, you are actually lucky as this can be cashed in by you later (albeit always at a loss if you do so during the first 10 years or so). In other cities in Germany they do only accept a RÜRUP/BASIS Renten plan which means your money is locked in until pension age and by then you can only draw an annuity for the rest of your life.

Also 50k is really low, Berlin requires - depending on age, though - often 150k for Expats trying to get a Niederlassungserlaubnis.

Since with a guaranteed capital your best way of doing this will be an insurance products (because only they provide such guarantees), there is also reason to hurry because the guaranteed interest will drop from 2.25 % p.a. to 1.75 % p.a. for all new contracts started after January 1st...which means your monthly contributions will need to be higher to achieve the same guaranteed 50k capital.

 

Cheerio

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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Hello again,

 

Does it help to add that there are also two other "Rentenversicherung"-related items on the checklist they've given me , however they are not crossed, meaning I do not need them:

 

- Rentenversicherungsnachweis (not crossed)

x Nachweis über eine Alterversorgung (z.B. Lebensversicherung mit einem Garantiebetrag vom 50.000€)

- Wartezeitauskunft der Deutschen Rentenversicherung Bund (not crossed)

 

So then does this only confirm what you said, that I do not need proof of payments into the Deutsche Rentenversicherung, but need to show proof of something private?

 

So then is the difference between Rentenversicherung and Lebensversicherung that when you pay into Rentenversicherung, you get back what you paid in monthly installments (perhaps dying before you get it all back) and in the case of Lebensversicherung you get a lump sum?

 

If that's the case then it does make sense to go with Lebensversicherung... Any advice on how to get started FAST and choose a reputable, non-fraudulent plan?

 

Thank you,

 

ML

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obviously the KVR thinks that any info or confirmation from the public pension side for you is not worth much as even if you have paid in these last three years, you have not yet any irrefutable cliams as far as I know, only after 5 years/60 months of contributions. This is why they obviously want you to set up and show proof for a pension/life insurance.

As mentioned, take the help and advice of an independent broker - does not cost you any extra money as the prevailing model in Germany for financial advice is commission based. Assuming that you want to keep your monthly contributions as low as possible, you'll need an advisor who can find you an insurance with the highest guarantees based on monthly contributions. This takes a bit of meddling and playing with numbers and softwares, hence my recommendation to approach one of the independent advisors/broker advertising here on Toytown. some are only a click away, actually ;)

 

Cheerio

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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MLmunich: I recommend you contact Starshollow above to sort this out quickly. The advice and paperwork are absolutely free and he´s in your neck of the woods in case you need a personal meeting.

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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Having battled this dragon recently, I suppose I'll offer my two cents.

 

In Munich, the KVR absolutely insisted that I needed to have Altersversorgung, despite the facts that they were granting me a one year visa and I was a twenty-something year old applicant. Had I not fought that requirement, I might have gotten away with just providing proof of a private life insurance policy or private retirement plan because they did not care which of the three I showed proof of having (obligatory Rentenversicherung, private Rentenversicherung, or Lebensversicherung). I did fight, however, and as a freelance English teacher was ordered to join Deutsche Rentenversicherung. Apparently, the new law requires all teachers of all sorts (and Erzieher, usw.) to join Deutsche Rentenversicherung specifically.

 

I would rather have gone the private route so that I could a) port my benefits to another country, or B) cash out. I don't plan to stay in Germany until retirement, but possibly over the 5 year mark, meaning that it is unlikely that I will get any return on my payments to DR.

 

Short and sweet:

Get a private policy. It just might suffice for the KVR (let them decide the legality of that), and it is anyway to your benefit to actually get a return on your investment.

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What is an irrefutable claim? :blink: I think I'm going to need some more explanation. While you sound like you know what you're talking about, I'm very new to this arena and not sure if I follow you.

 

Starshollow, I'll send you my phone number. Please be in touch at your earliest convenience. How fast do you think I can get this taken care of? (My appointment at the KVR is drawing nearer!)

 

Thank you,

 

ML

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SillyLawyer: it´s not a new law! It´s from c.1913 ( can´t remember ) and is a compulsory pension scheme for all teachers (even golf teachers!) AND midwives ( damn you, poor souls..).

The system here is really anal.

 

As elsewhere. We are all doomed! :)

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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