Health insurance for unemployed/returnees

266 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, SchwarzeKatzen said:

If he could get on the public plan (not sure about whether he's missed his eligibility or not)

 

If you got married, he would get a work permit as the spouse of a EU citizen, which would allow him to work.

If he's under 55 years old, he could take on an employee job that pays at least 450.01€ a month (not a mini job!), and that job would come with public health insurance. And yes, if your own monthly worldwide income were below 435€ a month, you would be covered for free under his public health insurance under family insurance.

He would then have to keep that job for at least 1 month, and then both of you would have the right to continue on in public health insurance. You could start freelancing again, but you should know that freelancers pay a minimum contribution of at least 400€ a month (which can be reduced to around 260€ for people on a low income and next to no assets), details in:

 

18 hours ago, SchwarzeKatzen said:

I pick another EU country, most likely, France as that country is closest to partner, and live there for a year enrolled in their insurance.  Would I then have some rights back in Germany to enroll in the public plan?

 

Yes, see here:

 

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18 hours ago, SchwarzeKatzen said:

I'm new to the site and in a similar situation to the previous posters.  I am a dual citizen of the USA and Ireland (and thus the EU).  I want to move to Germany in a few months, and I had hoped to be on the government/public plan.  However, I am 55 and have not had insurance in the EU previously, having never lived or worked in Ireland.  I am considering either of these scenarios:

  • My partner (American already in Germany) is not on the public plan right now, but something that's cheaper and suffices for his visa.  If he could get on the public plan (not sure about whether he's missed his eligibility or not) and we married, I understand that I could be insured as a dependent as long as I made less than the ~430Euros in income.  I could live off of savings for awhile.  (I noted above that TK or one of the other companies indicated that savings would not count as income.) How long would I have to stay at this income level?  Would I then have some rights that I don't have now to earn more money and convert it to my own insurance?  I will be self-employed and freelancing.
  • I pick another EU country, most likely, France as that country is closest to partner, and live there for a year enrolled in their insurance.  Would I then have some rights back in Germany to enroll in the public plan? 

Many thanks for any help you can provide. 

Public insurance in France for foreigners:

 

https://www.expatica.com/fr/healthcare/Guide-to-health-insurance-in-France_108848.html

How to apply:

https://www.expatica.com/fr/healthcare/Guide-to-health-insurance-in-France_108848.html#CarteFR

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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How do these laws apply in this case?

 

- Person is 66 (former German citizen but naturalized US citizen since 1977)

- From 1/1/86-12/31/88 he resided and worked in Germany, as a US citizen, and he has proof of AOK membership during that 3 year period

- Person has lived and worked in the US since moving back on 1/1/89

 

So this person would like to return to the AOK. He’s over 55 of course but he was last insured with AOK. If he were still German citizen I am hearing it’s no problem because he was previously with the AOK. Is it a problem for a US citizen? This person wants to retire to Germany and step back into AOK initially before going down the one-way street of private insurance.  The rules for his wife as a dependent are clear to me.

 

Any thoughts???

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Didn't you ask all this in your other post? Does your husband still hold German citizenship or did he give that up when taking US citizenship?

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15 hours ago, BethAnnBitt said:

Person is 66 (former German citizen but naturalized US citizen since 1977)

 

Which means he is now a foreigner.

 

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If he were still German citizen I am hearing it’s no problem because he was previously with the AOK. Is it a problem for a US citizen? This person wants to retire to Germany and step back into AOK initially before going down the one-way street of private insurance.  

 

I don't think he is eligible for public health insurance. 

 

 

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(11) Ausländer, die nicht Angehörige eines Mitgliedstaates der Europäischen Union, Angehörige eines Vertragsstaates des Abkommens über den Europäischen Wirtschaftsraum oder Staatsangehörige der Schweiz sind, werden von der Versicherungspflicht nach Absatz 1 Nr. 13 erfasst, wenn sie eine Niederlassungserlaubnis oder eine Aufenthaltserlaubnis mit einer Befristung auf mehr als zwölf Monate nach dem Aufenthaltsgesetz besitzen und für die Erteilung dieser Aufenthaltstitel keine Verpflichtung zur Sicherung des Lebensunterhalts nach § 5 Abs. 1 Nr. 1 des Aufenthaltsgesetzes besteht. Angehörige eines anderen Mitgliedstaates der Europäischen Union, Angehörige eines anderen Vertragsstaates des Abkommens über den Europäischen Wirtschaftsraum oder Staatsangehörige der Schweiz werden von der Versicherungspflicht nach Absatz 1 Nr. 13 nicht erfasst, wenn die Voraussetzung für die Wohnortnahme in Deutschland die Existenz eines Krankenversicherungsschutzes nach § 4 des Freizügigkeitsgesetzes/EU ist. Bei Leistungsberechtigten nach dem Asylbewerberleistungsgesetz liegt eine Absicherung im Krankheitsfall bereits dann vor, wenn ein Anspruch auf Leistungen bei Krankheit, Schwangerschaft und Geburt nach § 4 des Asylbewerberleistungsgesetzes dem Grunde nach besteht.

 

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_5/__5.html

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Dear engelchen, You are amazing! You continue to be very helpful. Thank you.

 

Here’s our take ? :

As far as we can tell this piece of legislation (about Versicherungsflichtig sind ...) refers to who is obligated to get insurance in Germany (we as foreigners, legally residing with a permit for 12 months or more, not obligated to work, and having been in the past insured by AOK) fall into category 13 a) 11. This law says “unemphatically you are required to insure yourself.” And we agree.

 

Who the GVT are obligated to insure is yet another piece of legal info to read, and it includes the law that says the GVT are obligated to insure anyone who stepped out of GVT and wants back in, as long as that person did not privately insure after stepping out. It seems to apply regardless of citizenship. Likewise, being over 55 is not a barrier since one is not asking to enter for the first time and did not ever privately insure in Germany. One must also prove that one continuously resided outside of Germany during those intervening years. One applies as a Ruckkehrer. We meet all of these conditions.

 

The sequence of steps in the process to apply for the permit are as follows:

1. get a legal address in Germany

2. try and step back into AOK (looks like that still remains a possibility, albeit hired advocacy is a good route to go)

3. head to the proper office with all of this info and more in hand, including proof of a means of support (that’s won’t be in question) and apply for the annually renewable auftenhaltserlaubness, contingent on 6+ months a year residing in Germany to keep it going. 

 

So: Lessor wants ?.  AOK wants an address (not a permit).  Office granting a permit wants an address that you reside at, proof of means of support, and proof of BaFin health insurance. 

 

At this point we have retained a certified insurance consultant to handle this and that person seems confident of being able to advocate for us stepping back in. I will post as to how to that continues to play out so that we can all keep helping each other.  If Plan A fails then we go to Plan B (private insurance.)  It seems wiser to retain the option of going privately later if one wants to than closing a door right away. On the other hand the price of private will keep rising in the meantime. This all bodes for “going for it” ASAP.  ?

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Contrary to your assertion on your other post, there's not actually that many Americans in Germany.  About 110,000 which is nothing in the context of 85 million.   Most of them have long-standing formal connections such as marriage to Germans and / or were only ever here for military reasons.   I would also bet a lot of those self-identifying "Americans" you see have embedded rights to live here, and some will have citizenship.

 

The biggest problem - by far -  with giving up citizenship is getting old.  Burning your later life bridges. Germany's full of former Indonesians, Pakistanis etc who want to go back to their birthplaces but can't now, just the same.   But they are no longer Indonesian or Pakistani.   They have no more right to live there than me now.    Gave it up.     Retired Britons (EU citizens) can't just decide to live permanently here because - similarly - there's another 110,000 other Britons.   They don't always get their EU permits.   They get refused or put on 90 days rolling.  

 

It's not healthcare that is your issue probably:   as you say you can afford it.  Classic "cart before horse".   It's about your right as retired foreigners to live here, given you won't be productive and contributing, just drawing on the state.  You need to nail that first.   This sounds harsh but it's the truth of migrant politics - applies to me and others here just the same as we age.   As Australia famously says: "No country wants another country's old people" and that is what your husband chose to be - another country's old person.

 

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We won't be drawing a penny from the state. We have complete means of support and will eventually buy a house with our son and his family. He will be living there and working as a software engineer. 

 

And, my husband actually has the right to return as a permanent resident as he is the German born child of ethnic German refugees from Serbia who were displaced after WW II. Interestingly so do his US born brothers. That's a law too.

 

And our case worker was very postive about it. It also has to do with where one wants to locate. Our major hurdle is health insurance. We will simply pay to go private if we must. That’s the tax we would pay for not paying it all along and I find it to be fair.

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Diligent homework- good for you! Good luck!

If you are lucky - you may be classified as "living off savings" or even "Arbeitslose"! ( Yes- this does work! )

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11 hours ago, swimmer said:

Contrary to your assertion on your other post, there's not actually that many Americans in Germany.  About 110,000 which is nothing in the context of 85 million.   Most of them have long-standing formal connections such as marriage to Germans and / or were only ever here for military reasons.   I would also bet a lot of those self-identifying "Americans" you see have embedded rights to live here, and some will have citizenship.

 

On this point I'm in complete agreement with you.

 

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The biggest problem - by far -  with giving up citizenship is getting old.  Burning your later life bridges. Germany's full of former Indonesians, Pakistanis etc who want to go back to their birthplaces but can't now, just the same.   But they are no longer Indonesian or Pakistani.   They have no more right to live there than me now.    Gave it up.     Retired Britons (EU citizens) can't just decide to live permanently here because - similarly - there's another 110,000 other Britons.   They don't always get their EU permits.   They get refused or put on 90 days rolling.  

 

Although it is true that certain countries such as Canada do not provide special privileges to former citizens, countries such as India and Germany do. Under §38 AufenthG it is possible for former German citizens to come back to Germany if they speak a little German and have sufficient funds (including health insurance).

 

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As Australia famously says: "No country wants another country's old people" and that is what your husband chose to be - another country's old person.

And here is the crux of the public health insurance issue. Why should the rest of us subsidise public health care for a foreigner who has only contributed for three years into the public health care system? 

 

11 hours ago, BethAnnBitt said:

Our major hurdle is health insurance. We will simply pay to go private if we must. That’s the tax we would pay for not paying it all along and I find it to be fair.

 

If you realise that it is not really fair to expect the rest of us to subsidise your health care, why are you still pursuing public health insurance?

 

11 hours ago, BethAnnBitt said:

Who the GVT are obligated to insure is yet another piece of legal info to read, and it includes the law that says the GVT are obligated to insure anyone who stepped out of GVT and wants back in, as long as that person did not privately insure after stepping out. It seems to apply regardless of citizenship.

 

Why do you think this option applies to all Rückhehrer regardless of citizenship? Please see my previous post.

 

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AOK wants an address (not a permit).

 

The person with whom you spoke at the AOK is wrong. The AOK is bound by the SGB V and are not allowed to make up their own rules.

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, RedMidge said:

If you are lucky - you may be classified as "living off savings" or even "Arbeitslose"! ( Yes- this does work! )

 

What are you talking about!!?!?!?!? :blink:

 

Neither the poster nor her husband seem to have had public health insurance for over 24 months in the past 5 years.

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The relevant law, SGB V , is very, very complex and in parts also very contradictory. While in my professional opinion, too, the OP has not certain legal claim to get admitted back to AOK, I would not universally deny that they might be one or the other exception in this law ... which a true expert might be able to find.

Hence I think your best option is to get a qualified Versicherungsberater or lawyer with specialization in this field on board. You'll have to pay for that, of course, but only such an expert will find you a solution if there ever is one.

 

Out of personal interest (since my fathers family fled from Lazarfeld and Frankenfeld in what today is Serbia after WWII - where does your husband's family come from?
 

Cheerio

 

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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4 hours ago, engelchen said:

 

What are you talking about!!?!?!?!? :blink:

 

Neither the poster nor her husband seem to have had public health insurance for over 24 months in the past 5 years.

Worked for me!

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27 minutes ago, RedMidge said:

Worked for me!

 

You (or your husband) were a former German citizen? If not, apples and oranges.

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1 minute ago, engelchen said:

 

You (or your husband) was a former German citizen? If not, apples and oranges.

True, but the officials  were very willing to find a way to make it work.

Agree with you on poster- she seems to imply that financially no problem with paying private. So why bother with public.

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Whether or not it’s better to go public or private is still in the mix. I think in large part right now it’s mostly about feeling like one knows what one is getting. That may be overrrated here. Getting into private would be very fast too according to the broker. 

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