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UK wants to implement Gay marriage by 2015

162 posts in this topic

 

There is absolutely no reason that polygamy shouldn't be legal as well. Marriage is a contract between people, and as long as said people are adults of sound mind the government should not be sitting here dictating who enters into it.

If marriage is no longer between two people, there's no logical reason why it shouldn't also be communal, between two men and five women, say, or one man and 20 women. But that would allow cult leaders, for example, to legalise their hold over others -- and their children -- by entering into communal marriages. It would be difficult to prove soundness of mind. It's not a requirement of the current system.

 

 

Plenty of societies worked pretty well with polygamy, so any concerns about insurmountable complexities of that situation aren't that convincing.

Work pretty well in the sense that men and women have equal rights?

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As a gay man, I am so use to the rhetoric of likes of the catholic church and oblomov.

What sort of retoric? Perhaps you have ignored that I have no issues with gay marriage. That doesn't mean that there is any obligation for others to actively support your demands.

Quoting Niemöller is beyond risible. It may be unsatisfactory that society doesn't grant a homosexual partnership exactly the same privileges as marriage, but that's very much removed from being persecution. You also cannot claim that men like Lords Mandelson and Browne in the UK or Guido Westerwelle and Klaus Wowereit in Germany were "marginalized" in the past, just because they couldn't marry their partners.

As to anti-Catholic bigotry, it is consistent in this forum. It is completely legitimate to reject the opinions of the Catholic Church and to consider them an unpleasant organisation. Yet to criticise Catholics but to remain silent about the CofE which has much more visible representatives in this controversy, that's indicative of a very anti-Catholic bias which is quite consistent in this forum.

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Meaning that while the Catholics are the main fire-breathers in the UK

Which is a claim that completely ignores the opposition by parts of the CofE, the Tories and newspapers that are clearly not Catholic.

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I´ll repeat my personal definition of all churches and other "man"-made religious institutions: bigotry - short for " big in history " - no need for a future. No need for anyone to bow and scrape before anyone and consider yourself below anyone else.

This is NOT an argument against God, Godliness or faith of any kind - quite the opposite. it´s against humanity´s placing him/herself below a reactionary hierarchy led by ( usually ) old sexually-repressed men wanting to repress others.

 

Rant over!!!

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By the way, yes , there is bigotry towards Catholics in parts of the UK, Oblomov. Northern Ireland and Scotland have their issues.

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The idea that you only love one person and you are with them until the end of days just doesn't in any way shape or form reflect the reality for most.

 

Love is coincidental to some marriages and absent in many. In most western countries, people are able to love whomever as long as it is a consenting adult. Marriages do not necessarily end if those involved don't love each other any more. Sometimes they don't end even if the married couple is publicly recognized to be involved with others. The future President of Germany would be a recognized example.

 

Marriage is the basis for automatic inheritance in some places, the ability to share health insurance, and the ability to get a residence permit or even a green card and probably a lot of other legal privileges granted to one person. In terms of property contracts, polygamy seems difficult while gay marriage seems relatively simple and extends legal privileges of marriage to everyone.

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Which is a claim that completely ignores the opposition by parts of the CofE, the Tories and newspapers that are clearly not Catholic.

 

main

def. 3

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main

def. 3

 

This doesn't do anything to support your claim given that the CofE is still the dominant Christian denomination in the UK and the plain fact that the Tories were never a bastion of Catholicism.

 

As to marriage, for reasons of tradition and because marriage was considered to be the core of the family and of society it was given financial and legal privileges. Previously gay campaigners campaigned for being tolerated by society, now they want to have equality with marriage. I don't believe those claims that maintain that traditional marriage with the design of having children is on its way out. Almost all marriages within my circle of friends and acquaintances are surprisingly traditional in that regard. Lack of children seems to be almost exclusively caused by medical reasons. The number of friends living in long term gay relationships is just too small a sample that I would dare to draw conclusions from it.

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Gosh, how did people ever manage to marry before the Christian God set things up? Or was it like the unbaptized babies thing, where they go to Limbo? All those marriages whose lost souls are wandering around, forever denied the Heavenly Vision.

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Well, Oblomov, you´re right. Probably most people in the UK are traditional with marriage - why not? Most people in most societies " obey by the rules " - also fine. What about those who are outside those rules ( I don´t mean murderers, muggers, those-who-don´t-give-a-shit-about-others )?

I cannot understand why people just don´t let others live without interference.

 

Humanity equals interfering - bloody annoying. Whether Protestant, Catholic, Judaism, Islam, Communist, Fascist, mother-in-law/father-in-law - let people live . Go within yourself ( if you wish ) and be yourself.

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But John... You never hear the Hetro fighting for Hetro rights!.... Do you?

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Well, Oblomov, you´re right. Probably most people in the UK are traditional with marriage - why not?

 

Most people in the uk most likely claim to be traditional with respect to marriage, but the statistics tell another story. 1 in 3 marriages fail in the first 15 years http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jan/28/divorce-rates-marriage-ons and around 50% of children are born outside wedlock , this doesnt really support a broad majority having traditional views (even if they say they do).

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If marriage is no longer between two people, there's no logical reason why it shouldn't also be communal, between two men and five women, say, or one man and 20 women.

And there is no reason to not let communal groups of adults to enter into whatever civil agreements their crazy little minds desire, no matter how bizzare it might seem to you.

 

 

But that would allow cult leaders, for example, to legalise their hold over others -- and their children -- by entering into communal marriages.

Marriage doesn't give you control over people in most western countries, and limiting the freedom of adults to enter into contracts based on some fringe concern about dipshits who allow themselves to join cults (we'll call them 'christians') is counter-intuitive to the concept of individual freedom.

 

 

It would be difficult to prove soundness of mind. It's not a requirement of the current system.

It is certainly a requirement of entering into a contract in American law (and I assume British law since our contract laws have the same roots) and has been for a very long time.

 

Work pretty well in the sense that men and women have equal rights?

 

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But John... You never hear the Hetro fighting for Hetro rights!.... Do you?

 

Go to any pub or disco with young guys fighting over a woman they wanna shag, Spider!!! :D

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Most people in the uk most likely claim to be traditional with respect to marriage, but the statistics tell another story. 1 in 3 marriages fail in the first 15 years http://www.guardian...es-marriage-ons and around 50% of children are born outside wedlock , this doesnt really support a broad majority having traditional views (even if they say they do).

 

What I mean is: when they get married! NOT after the wedding night or first child or mortgage...!!!

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But John... You never hear the Hetro fighting for Hetro rights!.... Do you?

 

Yeah, because heterosexual people are subject to so many inequalities. In some places they cannot marry, receive tax benefits from their marriage, adopt a child with their partner, adopt their partner's child, give blood, get workplace benefits for their spouse...oh...wait...

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Why does the government (corrupt and useless as it is) get to decide whether or not gay people can marry??? Hello... having kids is perhaps a more debatable issue, but marriage is none of the damn government's business.

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And there is no reason to not let communal groups of adults to enter into whatever civil agreements their crazy little minds desire, no matter how bizzare it might seem to you.

 

Seems reasonable - however, there might be some companies who do not want to extend health insurance benefits to all of their employees' multiple spouses and adopted kids and the government may not want to provide a green card or visa to multiple spouses in the case where the communal family has crossed borders based on civil agreements drawn up by those crazy little minds. .

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That doesn't mean that there is any obligation for others to actively support your demands.

 

Don't we all have an obligation to do what we believe is right?

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Or because anti-Catholic bigotry is still quite accepted both in the UK as in this forum?

 

I don't think is as much anti-catholic bigotry as a revulsion towards an organisation that has cover up and perpetuated child abuse around the world, kept woman as slaves as recently as the 1990s, encouraged the spread of AIDS in Africa by refusing to endorse condomns, been involved in the theft of several hundred thousand babies in Spain under Franco's rule and then has the nerve to preach to us about morality. Its not a prejudice about beliefs, its a judgment about actions.

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