Tax return after working in France and Germany

115 posts in this topic

The Anlage N-AUS is only needed for the case that somebody had foreign employee income while being resident in Germany, this can either be:

 



  • most commonly: cross-border commuters who live in Germany but work in a neighbouring country (see here. To get to see the text click on "I want to become a fan", which is the exact opposite of what its says in German, so it's safe to click on it. GoogleTranslate comically translates "Anlage N-AUS" as "plant N-OUT", ignore that), or
  • the rare case: if your former employer only paid out your foreign salary after you were already officially resident (= angemeldet) in Germany.

 

Did you fill in line 99 in the Mantelbogen ESt 1A with your Romanian gross income (= gross salary + other source of income) that year?

If not, then they got suspicious and are asking for the Anlage N-AUS in order to get a detailed overview of your Romanian income, i.e. to find out whether a part of it was paid when you were already resident in Germany, which would mean that they would have a chance to also tax it here.

 

Because that's really all the Anlage N-AUS is:

 

  • You claim: "You don't have the right to tax my foreign employee income!"
    --> the Finanzamt says: "Before we can accept that we have no right to any tax on this income, please give us all the details (in the Anlage N-AUS) so that we can decide by ourselves. Who knows, maybe we do have a right to some tax on this income!"

 

In other words, in your case filling in the Anlage N-AUS will not give them any new information, since all your Romanian income was paid to you before you registered in Germany.

 

However, since they asked for it, you will have to submit it, no matter how useless it will be.

Just follow the instructions in post 3, and leave lines 61 to 83 empty, those are meant for cross-border commuters. Germany has a lot of different treaties depending on which country they commute to, so they need a whole page.

 

Important is that you attach:

 



  1. copies of your Romanian salary slips,
  2. of your bank slips (to show the entry of the Romanian salary before the date you registered here), and
  3. a copy of your Anmeldung so that they see from what date they had taxation rights on you.
That's what they really need, not the Anlage N-AUS.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi PandaMunich

 

Amazing post, really helpful!

 

I am a little confused about how my circumstances fit into all this since I didn't need to actually go abroad to work.

 

I have been working and living in Germany for a few year. Last year I took on some work in my home country, the UK. I was paid for this work and taxed under the UK system.

 

Whilst the UK contract covered the whole year, I did hours on a flexible basis and only worked some hours in some months. Further, I never needed to actually go to the UK and could do all the work from Germany.

 

I am trying to declare this income in the N-AUS form, is this correct? I have followed the steps you provide but I am unsure about what to put in the days actually worked and days planned to work in the foreign country. Since I didn't actually work any days in the foreign country. I did visit the UK a few times through the year though. Can you help me with this issue?

 

Thanks a lot for your help in advance.

 

Best,

pocket_nines

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just fill it in as best you can (fill in 0 days if you didn't spend any time in the UK on work assignment) and attach copies of all relevant documentation, including proof of the UK tax you paid.

They will ask extra questions in a letter if they still have doubts.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Panda, thanks a lot for your quick response!

I am still a little unsure though. I am currently putting in about 200 days where it says "46. Vertraglich vereinbarte Arbeitstage im KalenderJahr" because my contract covered the whole year and then I put 0 in where it says "47. davon entfallen auf die Tätigkeit, für die der ausländische Staat das Besteuerungsrecht hat". 0

If I do this then the calculator says I do not have to pay any extra tax no matter how much I earned abroad. This doesn't seem right to me...

I just don't want to end up with any unpleasant surprises.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Point 47 asks for the number of days that the UK had the taxation rights on.

It will end up being a different number, but you start by playing dumb and claiming that you thought the UK had the taxation rights.

 

In fact, as you describe the situation, that income shouldn't have been taxed in the UK at all, but in Germany.

But as I said, play dumb, you are acting in good faith and are simply describing what happened.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I understand correctly, this is how you would be taxed if you have employee income before moving to Germany:

 

(German income-deductions)* [tax on (German income-deductions on this income+foreign income)]/(German income-deductions on this income+foreign income)

 

Am I right in thinking that you get no deductions in the foreign part of income?

 

For a single childless employee without double households or parents to support are there any deductions worth considering apart from the ones below:

1--part of pension contributions

2--health and nursing care insurance contributions

3--other insurances if #2 is below 1900

4--moving expenses or umzugspauschale

5--commuting expenses

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, sorry, they simply consider the gross amount for the foreign income.

Though if you paid health insurance or pension insurance contributions on that foreign income you could make a case that those should be deducted first, in order to treat the foreign income the same way as they would treat German income.

 

If you had education costs, e.g. if you are still paying off tuition debts, or if you bought text books or attended conferences you can also claim for those.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How would I make a case? Is there some form or do I just write a letter? I would think that the tax courts (don't know the equivalent here) would have already ruled on such an issue.

 

In the calculator at parmentier.de, he also speaks of a fixed deduction(1036E) for tax class I. Can I add this to the list or is it offset by moving expenses/commuting expenses/education costs?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am filling out my 2012 forms for the Finanzamt and in addition to freelancing here, have been an employee of a US company since 2011 (before I moved to Germany). I was filling out my N-AUS form, but as I got to the end, I started to wonder if I was doing it right. Then I read this:

 

 

You should use these conversion tables to convert the GBP amount into €.

 

However, if you had this GBP employee income before you moved to Germany, then you do not fill it into Anlage N-AUS, but into line 99 of the Mantelbogen ESt1A.

 

I have been working for this company as an employee since before moving to Germany and as long as I have lived here. So the information that goes into line 99, is that just for people who made money abroad in the same year as they moved and now are no longer working for the foreign employee? Or what about people who worked for the employer before and then moved to Germany and continued to work for the employer? Should I claim my foreign income there, or should I continue with the N-AUS form and just ignore the part about working abroad (17-22, 61-83)? Or should I fill out N-AUS AND put this number in line 99?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, but the line 99 in the Mantelbogen is just for people who stopped working for their foreign employer when moving to Germany.

You are stuck with the Anlage N-AUS.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

I need some help to do my last German tax declaration. I lived in Munich until the end September 2013, and moved in France. I just did my French tax declaration, so that part is done now.

 

@Panda Munich

I am wordering if I should complete the Anlage N AUS for the employement income I received in France from October to December. Does this income should be reported in others forms as well.

I assume that for 2013 I am a German tax resident. Should I send my tax declaration to the same Finanzamt than last year, or there is a special center for people living abroad?

 

Please note that I have worked in Germany only until March 2013. I paid health insurance directly to KKH, and I am not sure were I should report these amounts.

 

Thank you very much for your help.

P.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Intro: Maybe someone could give me a tip. I am optimistic I can make our tax returns for 2013, going with the excellent description given in the TT ELSTER, and other numerous posts on TT - Many thanks to PandaMunich and all.

 

Family situation: Wife (EU) and I (Non EU) got married in July, 2013

 

Work Situation: My wife had Gewerbe (self employed) and worked as a Putzfrau from January-June, thereafter she closed the Gewerbe and got a fixed contract job from July – December.

I had a student job (as I am still doing my masters programme)

Income / benefit situation as at December 2013

From Gewerbe she made 4500 euro (Charged no VAT)

From her fixed fixed contract job she made 7250 euro (paid all the relevant taxes: church, health etc)

From the Landrasamt, she received financial support totaling 2800 euro (Jan-June when she still had Gewerbe)

From Kindergeld she got 1200 euros so far (benefit from two kids)

I made 7800 euros total for the year from my student job

 

Question is :

1.Are we supposed to file our tax returns separately?

2.If our only option is to file our tax returns jointly, what combination of forms are we expected to fill out together? (from these Mantelbogen ESt 1V or 1A, Anlage Vorsorgeaufwand ,Anlage G AnlageN, Anlage S, Anlage Kind, etc)

 

Thanks for your kind responses.

 

Regards,

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I lived in Munich until the end September 2013, and moved in France. I just did my French tax declaration, so that part is done now.

 

I am wordering if I should complete the Anlage N AUS for the employement income I received in France from October to December.

 

You will be a tax resident in Germany until the end of September 2013, but you do have to tell the Finanzamt about your French gross income so that they can set the tax rate that you have to pay on your German income accordingly.

 

You tell them about your French gross income from October to December 2013 in line 98 of Mantelbogen ESt 1A (see turquoise section of the TT Elster wiki), and nowhere else.

You do not need Anlage N-AUS.

 

Just send your tax return to the Finanzamt of the last German city that you lived in.

Health insurance is reported in Anlage Vorsorgeaufwand, instructions in the yellow section of the TT Elster wiki.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Question is :

1.Are we supposed to file our tax returns separately?

2.If our only option is to file our tax returns jointly, what combination of forms are we expected to fill out together? (from these Mantelbogen ESt 1V or 1A, Anlage Vorsorgeaufwand ,Anlage G AnlageN, Anlage S, Anlage Kind, etc)

 

 



  1. You can file jointly or separately, but filing jointly is more advantageous to you.
  2. If you file jointly you will need:


    • 1 x Mantelbogen ESt 1A (husband + wife)
    • 1 x Anlage Vorsorgeaufwand (husband + wife)
    • 1 x Anlage G (wife)
    • 1 x simple profit/loss calculation, on a piece of paper, even handwritten (wife)
    • 2 x Anlage N (one for the husband, one for the wife)
    • 2 x Anlage Kind (one for each child)

     

    If you file separately, then each of you will need their own Mantelbogen, the rest of the forms remain the same.

     

What kind of financial support did she get from the Landratsamt?

If it was Hartz IV top up, then she doesn't declare it in her tax return.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You tell them about your French gross income from October to December 2013 in line 98 of Mantelbogen ESt 1A (see turquoise section of the TT Elster wiki), and nowhere else.

You do not need Anlage N-AUS.

Thank you for your help. This is very useful along with the ELSTER wiki. I am finalizing my tax declaration and I have a few more questions.

I now have completed : Mantelbogen ESt 1A, Anlage N, Anlage Kind, Anlage Vorsorgeaufwand, but still fine tuning. Do I need to fill additional forms? It am a simple employee, wife not working.

 

On Anlage N:

line 40 - Contribution to professional organisation: Can I deduct professional organisation outside Germany, namely US and Canada?

 

Line 45-48 - weitere werbungskosten: Can I put here moving expense to France? part that was not reimbursed by my employer. In France, this is not deductible, so I haven't deducted them from my French tax declaration.

 

Anlage Vorsorgeaufwand

Regarding my health insurance premium, I have put the one coming from my Lohnsteuerbescheinigung on line 12 & 15. I also paid health insurance directly to KKH after loosing my job. (Beitrag zur Krankenversicherung, Beitrag zur Pflegeversicherung) Should I add these amounts to line 12&15 or use other lines such as 18&21?

 

When it's all done do I need to send along with the form all the receipt and proof?

 

Many thanks again for your help.

P.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

  1. No extra forms.
  2. Yes, you can claim for professional organisations worldwide.
  3. Only moving costs up to the German border are tax-deductible, so, if for example you moved by car, only km_to_German_border x 0.30€/km.
  4. Yes, just add them to the Arbeitnehmer Krankenversicherung and Pflegeversicherung lines.
  5. Yes, attach proof and receipts, but make a copy of them first!
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will use donemma80's template because it is very good. I hope this is not a problem.

 

Intro:

Maybe someone could give me a tip. I have to make tax return for 2013, going with the excellent description given in the TT ELSTER, and other numerous posts on TT - Many thanks to PandaMunich and all.

 

Family situation:

Wife (EU from February 2013; Serbian, Non-EU before) and I (EU from May 2013; Serbian, Non-EU before). Got married in 2010 in Serbia. No kids.

 

Work Situation:

My wife haven't worked in Serbia. From February 2013 she works here in Germany.

I worked for non-German company till December 2013 but I have German residence from May 2013.

From January till May, my residence was in Serbia so probably this period should not be mentioned in tax free forms.

I am living in Germany from May 2013 but I worked remotely for Serbian company from May to December and receiving salary on Serbian bank account.

Serbian gross salary for period of 7 months (May-Nov) was about 12K Euros and taxes were paid in Serbia of course.

I have found a new job in December 2013 and that is the reason why we have to make tax return (3-5 tax class combination).

 

Question is:

1. Are we supposed to file our tax returns separately?

2. Should I tell them for Serbian job or not?

3. Should I fill Anlage N-AUS form because May-Nov is 'gray' zone? What combination of forms are we expected to fill?

4. Could I apply for returns for table, monitor, electricity,... because I have had home office and in what form that should be?

 

Thanks for your kind responses.

 

Regards,

Ivan

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

My wife haven't worked in Serbia. From February 2013 she works here in Germany.

I worked for non-German company till December 2013 but I have German residence from May 2013.

From January till May, my residence was in Serbia so probably this period should not be mentioned in tax free forms.

 

No, you have to mention the income you had in 2013 in Serbia in the your return, in the Mantelbogen ESt 1A (turquoise section of the TT Elster wiki).

Assuming that both you and your wife earned 2000€ gross a month in Serbia, you have to fill into line 98: 4*2000 (your gross salary January-April 2013) + 2000 (your wife's Serbian gross salary in January 2013), i.e. 10000:

post-24869-14025956826728_thumb.png

 

That Serbian pre-move income will not be taxed again, but it will be used to raise the tax rate that you will have to pay on the income that you had post-move.

 

 

1. Are we supposed to file our tax returns separately?

 

No, that would be disadvantageous to you. You file one joint family tax return.

 

 

2. Should I tell them for Serbian job or not?

 

Yes, you should tell them.

The Finanzamt can get quite nasty to tax evaders.

 

 

3. Should I fill Anlage N-AUS form because May-Nov is 'gray' zone? What combination of forms are we expected to fill?

 

May-Nov is not a gray zone at all, you lived in Germany --> you have to declare it in your tax return.

They will then decide based on the data you enter into Anlage N-AUS whether to just let it be taxed by Serbia, or to tax it in Germany but to then deduct the income tax that you paid in Serbia from the amount you owe them.

 

 

4. Could I apply for returns for table, monitor, electricity,... because I have had home office and in what form that should be?

 

Yes, of course, see Claiming back home-office expenses on tax return.

 

**************************

 

However, I would suggest that you join a Lohnsteuerhilfeverein and let them do the tax return for you.

There are a lot of things like moving costs that you would probably not claim for - not knowing about them - and which they will include, so they are more than worth the about 100€ that they cost.

 

For details, please see post 577 in Filing a tax return.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now