Grundschule Grades in B-W

[EDS 24]

Does anyone know if there is a standard conversion of percent correct (for Diktat or other German tests) to the Note that is given? Is there a method of scoring within each Bundesland or is it left to individual teachers? I think most Diktat tests have about 85 words. Of course, there could be multiple errors within a single word, for example, it could be misspelled, or as a noun, not be capitalized. My child's first Diktat in 4th grade was scored as a

2-3 (this is a 2,5). There were 5 errors on the test, which I thought wasn't too bad. A 2-3 isn't a very good grade, though, and when I take a percentage, it's 94% (which, again, sounds pretty good as a percentage). I'm trying to convert my American way of thinking in percentages around these grades--any tips? I'll certainly ask the teacher, if she can ever find the time to speak with me. Interacting with parents does not appear to be a priority.

 

Thanks,

[friederike 515]

Hi!

I'm no expert at Grundschule. But I'm a teacher at a secondary school in Baden-Württemberg (Gymnasium)and I would be surprised to hear that there is a fixed method of scoring at Grundschule or a fixed number of words. Usually this is up to the school, although there are general recommendations/informal standards. The German teachers at my school have agreed on a rule that seems to be the standard method in most Gymnasiums in years 5/6 (changes according to the difficulty of the text are possible, of course): If 5% of the total number of words are errors, that would be a 4 = ausreichend (in other words: 95% of words spelled correctly = ausreichend/4). Only one error per word counts, so that "lärer" instead of "Lehrer" would be 1 error, not 2.

What you're describing (94% = 2-3) seems mild compared to that, which is because it is only year 4, not Gymnasium year 5.

Certainly trying ( =) ) to talk to the teacher and to ask her to explain is a good idea.

 

PS: Sorry for the clumsy explanation. I'm not used to expressing mathematical ideas in English (or in German, for that matter )

[westvan 9,706]

We could never figure it out either when my boys were in elementary school. It seemed to be up to the teacher and some were more strict than others. I don't know if there's a specific formula.

[EDS 24]

Thanks for the responses,Friedericke and Westvan.

 

From what you have said, Friedericke, I guess we should be glad this is only 4th grade. The system just seems a bit punitive to me, more of a focus on how poorly one does/has done, rather than encouraging a kid. I don't know if it's my personality, or a cultural angle, to look for the positive, as in "look, you got 94% of this correct," when the school seems to be highlighting the negative with "How terrible! Six percent of your work is totally wrong!"

 

My biggest cultural challenge in living here has been sorting out the schools. I have read quite a bit on TT, and elsewhere, about the selection process that we'll experience soon in 4th grade. It is just absurdly early to assume to know a child's potential, when he/she is only 8 or 9.

[friederike 515]

 

The system just seems a bit punitive to me, more of a focus on how poorly one does/has done, rather than encouraging a kid. I don't know if it's my personality, or a cultural angle, to look for the positive, as in "look, you got 94% of this correct," when the school seems to be highlighting the negative with "How terrible! Six percent of your work is totally wrong!"

I totally agree although that is gradually changing and especially primary schools work a lot with praise. Fortunately, dictations are just a tiny aspect of a pupil's academic performance and the older the kids get, the less important this type of testing becomes. Correct spelling is just one aspect of writing/language skills.

 

 

My biggest cultural challenge in living here has been sorting out the schools. I have read quite a bit on TT, and elsewhere, about the selection process that we'll experience soon in 4th grade. It is just absurdly early to assume to know a child's potential, when he/she is only 8 or 9.

Again, I fully agree. This selection is nonsense, especially as recent research shows that teenagers' brains don't develop in a linear and predictable way (what a surprise). And yet there are many other options to obtain the Abitur later on even if a child discovers academic interests fairly late, so I think many parents worry too much about it.

The new government is going to abolish the obligatory "Grundschulempfehlung" so that the choice of school is up to you.

By the way, in my area only about 27% of parents decide for Gymnasium (compared with around 50% in places like Heidelberg). Many feel that there is more to life than Abitur whereas others with a wholehearted recommendation for Gymnasium are afraid that Gymnasium will be too demanding for their kids (a mother's words: "They should have enough time to play."

In my ideal world, there would only be one type of school with lots of help for those who need it AND challenges for those who need them...

[kato 3,560]

 

A 2-3 isn't a very good grade, though

 

It's not a particularly bad one either though.

 

There are many teachers, in particular older ones, who take the transliteration of the grades (1 = very good, 2 = good, 3 = satisfying, 4 = adequate) to heart. These teachers tend to have a standard where a 2 is the grade they give their students if they fully satisfy the expected performance for their age/class, and a 1 can only be gained through exceptional performance. A 2-3 in this standard would be a good grade, with still some room for improvement. Parents often tend to have a different standard to this.

 

Remember that the general Grundschulempfehlung rules also reflect this same thinking. You need two 2s and a 3 for Gymnasium ("overall reached expected standard, can be below expectation in one subject"), one 2 and two 3s for Realschule.

 

As for Diktat grading, pretty much works like Friederike explained for most teachers.

[friederike 515]

Kato, thanks for explaining the 2-3. I didn't notice that.

 

 

There are many teachers, in particular older ones, who take the transliteration of the grades (1 = very good, 2 = good, 3 = satisfying, 4 = adequate) to heart.

I think your explanation is very helpful for understanding our system of grades.

I do hope that most teachers think of these descriptions when they grade students' work (and I'm not that old...). That's exactly what our grades are there for - although they certainly leave room for interpretation, as were saying re teachers' vs parents standards .

[Dens 209]

What I just cannot figure out is why when a class does particularly well in a Schulaufgabe /Extemporale why do they then obviously say to the teacher that the grade average is too high and that she should go back and re-correct it.It happened last year to my son (6 Klasse Realschule Bayern).He attained a grade 2 in a Deutsch grammar Schulaufgabe.It was then re-corrected , a full stop/period or Punkt had been omitted at the end of one sentence that he had written.A 0.5 point was deducted and he slipped down a whole grade to a 3.The grade 2 was tippexed out and replaced by a 3.

His reaction and mine for that matter is that if they learn and do too well they are punished too .

Try and motivate your child to learn when something like that happens!

[MrNosey 5,328]

In Schleswig-Holstein they usually mark according to the bell-curve (normal distribution), so it doesn't necessarily tie-in to a percentage.

[EDS 24]

Thanks again for the replies.

 

Kato, I was glad to hear from you, as I've seen many of your posts in threads about education. One question about your last post here: you mentioned needing two 2s, and up to one 3 for the gymnasuim, but my understanding was that the recommendation is based solely on the Deutsch and Mathe grades. So, if a child has all 1s and 2s, except for the stinky 3 in Deutsch, do you think they would be viewed, generally, as capable of gymnasium work?

 

I just saw in today's paper that the SPD has officially removed the binding element of the emphaelung, now it is only construed as advice from the teacher. At our Elternabend in early October, the teacher was very firm in saying the SPD had voted to change the law, but had not actually changed it yet, so it would,until such time, still be binding. It appears the change is now official.

 

--EDS

[kato 3,560]

 

my understanding was that the recommendation is based solely on the Deutsch and Mathe grades.

The three relevant grades used to be German, Math and "Heimat- und Sachkunde" (HuS), sorta mixed local history and basic sciency stuff. There was a GPA formed from these three, weighed equally. A GPA better than or equal to 2.33 resulted in a Gymnasium recommendation, a GPA of 2.66 or better resulted in a Realschule recommendation.

 

Currently it's only German and Math with a lowered GPA of 2.5 (meaning 2+3 or 1+4 or better) for Gymnasium entry resulting in entry being effectively easier than it used to be (you only have to watch out for those two instead of three). Change to this easier standard was a few years ago to increase the share of kids getting a Gymnasium recommendation.

 

 

So, if a child has all 1s and 2s, except for the stinky 3 in Deutsch, do you think they would be viewed, generally, as capable of gymnasium work?

Yes.

 

 

the teacher was very firm in saying the SPD had voted to change the law, but had not actually changed it yet, so it would,until such time, still be binding.

The teacher is right. The state parliament has to pass the change first, hearing will be sometime in December. Until it's successfully passed the old rule is the only valid one.

 

 

In Schleswig-Holstein they usually mark according to the bell-curve (normal distribution), so it doesn't necessarily tie-in to a percentage.

 

Only seen that at secondary level, not elementary. My math teacher in 8th to 10th grade Gymnasium did that.

[friederike 515]

 

What I just cannot figure out is why when a class does particularly well in a Schulaufgabe /Extemporale why do they then obviously say to the teacher that the grade average is too high and that she should go back and re-correct it. His reaction and mine for that matter is that if they learn and do too well they are punished too. Try and motivate your child to learn when something like that happens!

I've heard about schools in Bavaria doing that. Unbelievable really. The same goes for marking according to the bell curve.

[kato 3,560]

 

I've heard about schools in Bavaria doing that. Unbelievable really. The same goes for marking according to the bell curve.

 

At university level a lot of profs do it. Gotta have about 20% getting that 5 to fail. Even if we have to readjust the numbers to shift the bell downwards.

[friederike 515]

 

At university level a lot of profs do it. Gotta have about 20% getting that 5 to fail.

I can understand that better than doing that at schools. The only similar thing that I've heard about other schools in Baden-Württemberg is that a head who worries to much about keeping parents happy might tell you to recorrect Klassenarbeiten to achieve a more positive result even though the bad result was due to lazy students, not an overly difficult text/exam.

I think the following is important when marking:

When a class performs incredibly well, the teacher needs to ask herself whether that's because the method of testing was inappropriate (easy tasks etc.) - then readjusting the marking system is necessary (or you just live with it because it was your fault, after all, not the kids' :-) ) - or if the students have actually learned what you wanted them to learn and have prepared very well - which has been known to happen occasionally...

The same should happen with very bad results: either my exam questions have been too difficult, in which case I need to adjust my scale, or the students were ill-prepared - they they just have to live with it without my boss interfering.

Teachers need a well-developed mechanism of self-reflection.

[MrNosey 5,328]

 

The same should happen with very bad results: either my exam questions have been too difficult, in which case I need to adjust my scale, or the students were ill-prepared...

 

Or the teacher is very bad at teaching (please don't tell me they get found out and removed).

[Dens 209]

Well , just this week my younger son's class , now also 6. Klasse Realschule got back the results from the first Schulaufgabe in english.The grade average for the class was 4.8 !I went over the Schulaufgabe as my son achieved the wonderful grade of 4 ! !He had not read the questions properly (always in a hurry ) in some parts, hence the bad grade. I went over it only to find that he had 8 questions right that she had marked wrong as he had used words that are not on the vocabulary list but correct english.

The children were all apparently very upset about their poor results and it had been discussed to repeat the test because of the dismal performance.The teacher decided though that the results were not her fault and told the kids"ihr seid selber Schuld".So she does not question her teaching methods.On the same day the maths teacher told the kids that if any of them got a grade 5/6 "Ich reiss euch den Kopf ab " or "a bad grade and I will rip your head off' .

I rest my case.

[kato 3,560]

 

On the same day the maths teacher told the kids that if any of them got a grade 5/6 "Ich reiss euch den Kopf ab " or "a bad grade and I will rip your head off'.

 

Wait for tenth grade - there's teachers who tell the kids that if they don't want to "work with them" they can now just piss off, drop out and get an apprenticeship somewhere...

[friederike 515]

 

Or the teacher is very bad at teaching (please don't tell me they get found out and removed).

Well, obviously - in this case we're back to "questions too difficult" in relation to their crappy teaching.

As in most jobs, it's indeed very hard to remove bad teachers although it's possible to find them out. They soon have a certain notoriety among students, colleagues and Schulleitung. But if they're Beamte, it's almost impossible to get rid of them. Fortunately, really bad teachers are very rare, at least in my experience.

 

 

I went over it only to find that he had 8 questions right that she had marked wrong as he had used words that are not on the vocabulary list but correct english.

How petty. I only ever do that in the vocabulary tests (is that Stehgreifaufgabe in Bavaria???)- to reward those who really try to increase and improve their vocabulary. Even then the answers are not marked wrong, they just don't get full credits.

In modern EFL teaching the focus should be on communication and fluency before accuracy anyway but some teachers don't approve and still think counting mistakes is the only "objective" way to assess performance (thankfully a tiny minority at my school).

Having said that, there are a couple of students each year who don't ever do any work but complain about oh so unfair, strict, unfrienldy teachers who give them bad grades, and some of them manage to reach Kursstufe and expect the Abitur to fall into their laps. They will simply have to live with people telling them that they're still at school because they CHOSE to stay instead of getting an apprenticeship. I don't mean people who really struggle and fight and try to do their best despite learning difficulties, of course.

[Tap 8,460]

 

I went over it only to find that he had 8 questions right that she had marked wrong as he had used words that are not on the vocabulary list but correct english.

 

I have 3 children who are native English speakers. When they used different vocabulary, one of their English teachers told me that my children had an unfair advantage over the other children in the class and that they should forget the other vocabulary and only use what was listed in the book!!!

 

After that, I decided not to challenge the teacher or the school because it just didn't help. Mine are grown-up now, the youngest is doing her Abi next year, but it's been a struggle getting them to this point.

 

Someone made the point in an earlier post that EFL is about communicating and I fuully agree with that, but school English is about passing an exam and that's the difference.

 

I also agree with the statement made that in schools here, it's all about what the children can't do and not about what they can do, at least that's the way it was with my 3. I really hope it's changing.

[Dens 209]

Good teachers and bad teachers exist all over the world. We have all met them in the course of our schooling and studies. There are good teachers , just like there are bad teachers, there are good doctors ,bad doctors, good nurses ,bad nurses .The problem is that it can have a profound effect on the people concerned when things go wrong. I have lived in many countries as a child and as an adult , changed school quite often as a child and had some terrors of nuns in Ireland but nothing has prepared me for what goes on here in the schools in Munich.I must say though that my boys are lucky now in that many of the teachers in their school are young and one can see a difference.they are motivated and interested and most importantly , human.One would hope that the staid way of learning will change for the good of all concerned teachers ,pupils and parents.Some of the old fogies really terrify me though!