Talk of military action against Iran

74 posts in this topic

Oh Chocky dear, you haven't even begun to understand my point.

 

Iran gets fed up with the West, particularly BP taking its oil and throws out the previous government in 1979. The rulers in the West are angered by this and decide they want to attack Iran. Iran is denounced as being an evil and terrorist state by the West and lots of propaganda is released in Western media showing things about democracy movements and freedom fighters being crushed and women being raped or whatever. Lots of people in the West get angry and want to attack it.

 

The rulers of Saudi Arabia however allows the West to extract its oil. The rulers receive lots of Eurofighters and F-15s and promises of Western support against any kind of democracy movement or terrorists. Saudi Arabia is declared to be a friendly state and there are no reports of democracy movements being crushed and women being raped or whatever in Western media.

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We've done a lot of bad against Iran, but lets not forget, the guy in charge at the moment is motherfucking crazy. I don't agree that our harsh and hypocritical stance towards them is the right move, but Iran is not a place I'd like to live right now.

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but Iran is not a place I'd like to live right now.

 

Oh indeed Hutcho I imagine for many it is not so great living there. Ahmadinejad is very obviously scared and prepared to be brutal in preserving his grip on power. I did however hear a radio program looking at popular music in Iran and which had interviews with young people, for the young rich and well connected there is a lot of excitement to be had in Tehran.

 

It is one of the great mysteries why what started out as a largely secular campaign of civil disobedience ended up producing a theocracy that greatly reduced civil liberties and probably resulted in a worse quality of life for the majority of the citizens there, Adam Curtis did a very interesting and somewhat plausible documentary on it.

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Think I just heard something on the news about Iran having been complicit somehow in the planning and preparation of 9/11...

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Oh it's all so logical... a small off-shore not quite European island, which sells weapons and owns an army. It pays to feed its people by casino banking & fraud, but that bit of corruption is about to collapse. So it could join up with big brother USA and use the army to rob another country of its oil, then split the profits and keep the economy going for a few more years on the stolen oil.

:blink:

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Think I just heard something on the news about Iran having been complicit somehow in the planning and preparation of 9/11...

 

Oh well, as good a reason as any to start things off...have to hang it on to something emotive to get the backing of the people.

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Well, the argument has worked before, and what's better, the President wouldn't need congressional approval to attack Iran if some pseudo-viable "proof" can be presented to the effect that Iran did have a hand in 9/11.

 

The Authorization for the Use of Military Force of 2001 already covers it:

 

 

IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

This could be a game-changer, especially if those here who think the US won't want to put boots on the ground in Iran are correct. America's superiority in drone warcraft is about to end.

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This reminds me of 2004. And 2008. And 2010. It's just an election season and the fascists in D.C. need something to get everyone stirred up. Iran is just the perpetual whipping boy of the US and her allies because they handed them a diplomatic defeat by throwing the Shah out.

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Sure, that old Shah stuff, not because Iran is generally belligerent, is threatening to acquire nuclear weapons, encourages unrest in Iraq, and doesn't recognize Israel. Nah. It's the Shah. Very perceptive of you.

 

My personal sentiments are probably more on your side than not, Laufkiel, but Ahmadinejad is making the same dumb "diplomacy" mistakes Saddam Hossein made. Look where it got Saddam.

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Know your history. Iran has not started a war with any nation and was drawn into a war by a US backed Iraqi dictator by the name of Saddam Hussein. The United States on the other hand has been engaged in well over 100 conflicts since the Shah's rise and fall.

 

I don't think Iran is the one that is making the initial threats here, they are just a people wanting to preserve their way of life against colonial, imperial and capitalistic external threats. The United States, however, believes that through the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) philosophy that we should occupy the middle east either overtly through military force (i.e. Iraq) or covertly through perpetual regime change (i.e. Egypt,etc.).

 

In my opinion, Iran is simply trying not to take the bait. They are said to be in accordance with the atomic guidelines and the only people saying they aren't have strong ties to AIPAC, the Jewish lobbying group that literally controls our government and financial sectors.

 

Get your head out of these old ideas and start reading the (Bush Sr.--->Obama) administration's game plans on how the world stage is being set up for a new era of colonialism in the sake of "freedom". A vast majority of Americans vaguely understand the current political system and this is why they can get away with such things, such as bullying sovereign, resource rich nations.

 

Iran isn't a good guy here, either. Though I disagree with stances that are suited to their religion, I still respect them as an independent state, one that is apparently content with what they got and certainly one that doesn't want our ideals of trash and consumption flooding their culture.

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In my opinion, Iran is simply trying not to take the bait.

 

If you think they're not doing any of the baiting, you need to read up on Ahmadinejad's most recent appearances at the UN General Assembly.

 

I get what you're saying, but to the vast majority of the American public it doesn't matter. Did Saddam have nukes, or even biological weapons? No. But not many Americans really cared in the end, because the US government was able to sell the public on the idea that he was a Bad Guy Who Deserved What He Got. Saddam's belligerent stance before the invasion was devastating both to his own rule, but most importantly, to the people of Iraq. I don't want to see that repeated in Iran, but Ahmadinejad is making the US job much easier.

 

It doesn't matter whether Iran has nukes, or not. What matters is if the US government can win a PR war with its own public in order to get tacit acquiescence on an invasion. The more footage the news channels can come up with of Ahmadinejad scolding the US at the UN, or of young Iranians waving banners and yelling "Death to America," the easier the US government's PR job supporting an invasion against Iran is going to be.

 

Historical and present-day reality don't come into it.

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The United States on the other hand has been engaged in well over 100 conflicts since the Shah's rise and fall.

Where do you get this number? Genuinely curious. Obviously I am aware of many more conflicts, as you put it, than declared wars. The number seems high to me, though. Anyway, that the US would be involved in more conflicts than a country like Iran is not surprising, given that we have a network of alliances that Iran doesn't have. Iran didn't get involved in places like the Balkans, for example.

 

 

 

The United States, however, believes that through the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) philosophy that we should occupy the middle east either overtly through military force (i.e. Iraq) or covertly through perpetual regime change (i.e. Egypt,etc.).

It must be pointed out that the US was against regime change in Egypt WAY before it was for regime change. The US attempted to get Mubarak replaced with one of his right-hand men when it looked like his overthrow was imminent, after all. Libya would perhaps be a better example for you, though obviously the recent regime changes have not been an effective way of replacing leaders unfriendly to the US with friendlier leaders.

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A simple Google search would give you well over 100 operations that have been documented. These are not including covert and black force operations which take place daily by the hand of the United States Military and it's contractors.

 

I get your point about Iran but that is still no reason to bully. Just because a country refuses to fall under a certain criteria doesn't mean she should be provoked into a catastrophic war against an obviously more powerful world force. Not to mention should her people be starved and punished against their will by an outside force. This is a ludicrous foreign policy and it breeds hatred, discontent and the want to attack this beast. Iran, however has shown incredible restraint, incredible ingenuity and what happens? She is punished for it.

 

If you think for a moment that the dark hand of U.S. policy isn't in Egypt right now then take a look at the military junta's reaction to protest and compare it to our own here in America. Egypt is a Vassal State under the USA and has been since we've had the ability to dabble in oil rich business.

 

It's all a stage show, I regret that a majority of people in America cannot and refuse to see the pattern. Once one "hostile" dictator is put into repress the people only to become greedy and have grandiose illusions of regional power, is then taken out by our oh-so heroic military. The story lines are always the same. Sons killed, Dictator found in a hole, Executed for threatening currency change, next!

 

America is over. I refuse to support that country anymore and my generation is growing ever more spiteful towards this culture of cowardice and greed. Peace, freedom and democracy do not come by way of war they come by way of peace and America is not displaying in the world what it is always beating it's chest about.

 

Shortly put to a majority here in the real world, the American Dream is a nightmare.

 

Happy New Year

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I get your point about Iran but that is still no reason to bully. Just because a country refuses to fall under a certain criteria doesn't mean she should be provoked into a catastrophic war against an obviously more powerful world force. Not to mention should her people be starved and punished against their will by an outside force. This is a ludicrous foreign policy and it breeds hatred, discontent and the want to attack this beast. Iran, however has shown incredible restraint, incredible ingenuity and what happens? She is punished for it.

 

If you think for a moment that the dark hand of U.S. policy isn't in Egypt right now then take a look at the military junta's reaction to protest and compare it to our own here in America. Egypt is a Vassal State under the USA and has been since we've had the ability to dabble in oil rich business.

 

It's all a stage show, I regret that a majority of people in America cannot and refuse to see the pattern. Once one "hostile" dictator is put into repress the people only to become greedy and have grandiose illusions of regional power, is then taken out by our oh-so heroic military. The story lines are always the same. Sons killed, Dictator found in a hole, Executed for threatening currency change, next!

 

America is over. I refuse to support that country anymore and my generation is growing ever more spiteful towards this culture of cowardice and greed. Peace, freedom and democracy do not come by way of war they come by way of peace and America is not displaying in the world what it is always beating it's chest about.

 

Not in any order

 

On Egypt - i think you are right. On Libya, Syria, Yemen, Tunesia as well. There seems to have been "help" of a very well resourced and professional nature.

 

Iran is fairly active in Iraq, for example and wants direct talks with the US. It is willing to provoke in a calculated attempt to reach its goals. Threatening to block the choke point of the world oil supply is fairly significant. What restraint and ingenuity you refer to?

 

It appears that the US has already bombed a few enrichment sites in Iran during the past 4-6 weeks. Personally, i think that outside of a few skirmishes, the US and Iran will be partners in the region within 5 years. There will not be all out war.

 

How exactly do you support the US? If you happen to look at the products and services you use every day and trace back the origins of the raw materials, you might conclude that the country where you currently reside is a willing participant in coercive resource procurement. It is fairly ubiquitous in the industrialized world and not solely a practice of the US.

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Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has repudiated nuclear weapons in the strongest terms. Again.

 

 

“The Iranian nation has never pursued and will never pursue nuclear weapons,” said Ayatollah Khamenei.

 

“There is no doubt that the decision makers in the countries opposing us know well that Iran is not after nuclear weapons because the Islamic Republic, logically, religiously and theoretically, considers the possession of nuclear weapons a grave sin and believes the proliferation of such weapons is senseless, destructive and dangerous.”

No western news outlets have quoted this major policy statement. Reuters' report is alarmist and misleading:

 

 

"With God's help, and without paying attention to propaganda, Iran's nuclear course should continue firmly and seriously ... Pressures, sanctions and assassinations will bear no fruit. No obstacles can stop Iran's nuclear work."

The WSJ's report refers to his words but only after a page of propaganda.

 

 

Iran isn't pursuing a nuclear-weapons program because it would be "sinful," he said.

 

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No western news outlets have quoted this major policy statement, despite reporting on the speech.

 

This has been discussed by other news outlets. Just about one hour ago, Christiane Amanpour, the Global News Correspondent for ABC News on This Week With George Stephanopoulos discussed this exact same issue.

 

What she said was Iran supreme leaders have declared it to be fatwas and against the Islamic faith to use nuclear war power.

 

She went on to say if Israel was in a war with Iran, Isreal will receive what's equivalent to a pin prick or a hit in the nose and will lose the war big if it's not backed up by the United States and other allies.

 

The roundtable also discussed this article about how President Obama will meet with Israeli leaders tomorrow at The White House.

 

Here's the quote from the transcript:

 

 

AMANPOUR: You know, I've been talking all weekend to sources in Iran, Israeli, U.S. and other diplomats. And I think as we can say right now, obviously the president is going to try to delay this.

 

The White House is saying not just you in your interview but to anybody who will listen, that we believe there is still time and space for diplomacy.

 

Not only that, we believe that what we're doing right now with the sanctions are really hurting, but in a negotiated way to try to make a permanent solution to this nuclear crisis, rather than a military strike, which will really commit Israel or the U.S. or others to permanent military strikes to try to contain this.

 

And I think very, very importantly, I was struck in your interview by something I have been looking at, and many Islamic scholars have, again, the Shiite top leaders in Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini talked about a fatwa against nuclear weapons, called it a great sin.

 

Complete transcript.

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Amanpour refers to Khomenei and unspecified 'Shiite top leaders' but does not mention or quote current Supreme Leader Khamenei.

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1. Am a fan of Jimmy Carter writings and Philosophy

2. Israel is playing with fire by attacking Iran..middle east will be ungovernable. Hezbollah screwed up Israel big time and they had to withdraw from Lebanon a few years back. Iran is not as easy, with a population of 85 million with 40 million available for military service...fill in the gaps

3. Barrack Obama of 2012 is not the one of 2007. He has become a warmonger. America will bankrupt itself if it starts another war...

4. EU and Germany must ignore Americans and Israel and go on with the mission of building their already bankrupt economies. where will EU countries which are NATO members get money for war?

5. Someone must educate the 99% o Americans who are ignorant of what their govt is doing. USA is all but a third world country because of poverty yet NEO-CONS want another war to completely bankrupt the US economy

6. The entire world should gang up and attack India,Pakistan,Israel,USA,N.Korea,France,UK, China and Russia because they have nuclear...then the world can live in peace....

7. Make love, NOT war

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Ahmadinedschad-Interview

 

ZDF Exclusiv interview (45 min )with Klaus Kleber of Heute Journal

 

http://www.heute.de/ZDFheute/inhalt/20/0,3672,20,00.html?dr=1

 

You can watch it form today on (will be online at 23:00 hour)

 

Sorry in German only

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1. Am a fan of Jimmy Carter writings and Philosophy

2. Israel is playing with fire by attacking Iran..middle east will be ungovernable. Hezbollah screwed up Israel big time and they had to withdraw from Lebanon a few years back. Iran is not as easy, with a population of 85 million with 40 million available for military service...fill in the gaps

3. Barrack Obama of 2012 is not the one of 2007. He has become a warmonger. America will bankrupt itself if it starts another war...

4. EU and Germany must ignore Americans and Israel and go on with the mission of building their already bankrupt economies. where will EU countries which are NATO members get money for war?

5. Someone must educate the 99% o Americans who are ignorant of what their govt is doing. USA is all but a third world country because of poverty yet NEO-CONS want another war to completely bankrupt the US economy

6. The entire world should gang up and attack India,Pakistan,Israel,USA,N.Korea,France,UK, China and Russia because they have nuclear...then the world can live in peace....

7. Make love, NOT war

 

Hm, that´s a lot to ask on one day. Just curious about point 6: if the entire world gangs up on those States and attacks them and the nuclear powers react...erm, point 7 becomes REALLY difficult. So what´s the point of your point 6?

The world is already ungovernable as we continue to kill people left, right and centre.

 

There will be no end to it until not only people in the US ( your boo boys ) but everywhere else say: BASTA!

 

But it won´t happen in my lifetime...

 

..unless we get attacked from Outer Space...now that would bring about some togetherness, I guarantee!

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