The worldwide occupy movement

249 posts in this topic

Michael Moore lacks credibility. He cannot even propose and impose a plan to control the restriction of his own calorific intake, let alone control an economy. He is part of the problem, all he does is eat and talk. What have people like him ever produced to actually benefit his country and society. Does this guy actually know what work is?

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He's a hero to the Detroit crowd, even if you wish he weren't. Whose hero are you?

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Michael Moore is one of the 1% and lives off the backs of the 99%.

 

The money he made blurting out about Motown probably paid for this place:

Michael Moore’s 2 million yoyo 10,000-square-foot summer mansion on Torch Lake in northern Michigan.

http://detnews.com/article/20111115/OPINION01/111150320/Hypocrisy-of-Michael-Moore%E2%80%99s-opulent-home

 

Doesn’t it sound odd to you that a 1-percenter poses as a spokesman for the Occupy Wall Street movement?

I bet he will make quite a buck out of this one like all the other band wagons he has jumped on.

Of course the OWS and people like cinzia and moctoj2 realize none of this - no surprises there.

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Of course the OWS and people like cinzia and moctoj2 realize none of this - no surprises there.

 

Realize what? That Michael Moore is rich? Just like the 250 members of congress that are multimillionaires that were voted in to represent the citizens and not the corporations that BOUGHT them who continue to not do their freaking job? Michael Moore is entitled to his opinion just like the 300 million others in this country. You can ignore him just like I do Rush I'm-a-drug-addict Limpdick or loofa man Bill O'Really. What brilliant ideas have they presented, hmmm?

 

You don't like Moore? (Another attack-the-messenger side show). So what. Where's your freaking list of improvements or 'demands'?

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Doesn’t it sound odd to you that a 1-percenter poses as a spokesman for the Occupy Wall Street movement?

 

Did you even read the article? Moore met for four hours with members of the OWS movement. He has distilled their discussion into a ten-point list that HE will present to THEM as a SUGGESTION. He's not calling himself a spokesman; if he did, he would be rejected.

 

 

The next step will be to develop a specific list of goals and demands. As one of the millions of people who are participating [not leading!] in the Occupy Wall Street movement, I would like to respectfully offer my suggestions of what we can all get behind now to wrestle the control of our country out of the hands of the 1% and place it squarely with the 99% majority.

OWS and Michael Moore are just never going to win with some people. You are one of those people, BB.

 

You find it ironic that a wealthy person would seek to eradicate income inequality in America. Why shouldn't a beneficiary of the public largesse recognize the problem and decide to become part of the solution? You might not like MM's message, but participating in OWS is consistent with it.

 

I guess you prefer class warfare.

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Why does the World Occupy Movement think the world owes them something?

Why do they have this attitude of entitlement?

 

As part of society they should take ownership of these problems instead of making demands and making wish lists. Having an entitlement attitude, like cinzia and moctoj2, is like having an anchor that’ll stop you from accomplishing anything. You’ll only focus on what you deserve to get and why the world has screwed you over. It is worse than being a loser – at least losers generally try.

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Who said anything about being 'owed' anything? I was raised about as poor as you can get as a member of a family of 7. I wasn't born into privilege and neither was Michael Moore but as long as you shut out a different point of view, you'd never ever know that.

 

Really BB, read something besides the right wing hit pieces and you might have something in common with the 99%. But maybe not. You must one of the 1% or think you're better than everyone no matter what we say.

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Like Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, Moore is a parasite who feeds on the ignorance of his fans. OWS would do well to disassociate themselves from Moore as well as crony capitalists like Warren Buffett and George Soros.

 

moctoj and cinzia - you should cut the "with us or against us" schtick. Everyone who does not fully support your binary understanding of the OWS and TP is not part of the 1% or a Fox News fan. Try to be a little bit less intellectually lazy.

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Go ahead and try to tell us off Kropotkin with your high horse attitude. While you live and work in Germany, the Americans are left with the crumbs of capitalism without your cushy safety net. You have jobs, you have public transportation, you have socialized medicine and oh yeah...you don't live here anymore. That attitude is exactly why there is a movement in this country that has spread. When you lose your job here, you might get a bit of unemployment, maybe some help from a church but once that dries up and it will, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. Because the states are BROKE, broke I tell you. No money left for those poor and unfortunate and jobless. Nope. But let's continue to provide those tax breaks to the super rich because they are the job creators! Right? Well, they've had these tax breaks for over a decade. Where are the freaking jobs? 1 in 4 children in this country lives in poverty.

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That attitude is exactly why there is a movement

The only movement in this thread is bowel movement.

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Go ahead and try to tell us off Kropotkin with your high horse attitude. While you live and work in Germany, the Americans are left with the crumbs of capitalism without your cushy safety net. You have jobs, you have public transportation, you have socialized medicine and oh yeah...you don't live here anymore. That attitude is exactly why there is a movement in this country that has spread. When you lose your job here, you might get a bit of unemployment, maybe some help from a church but once that dries up and it will, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. Because the states are BROKE, broke I tell you. No money left for those poor and unfortunate and jobless. Nope. But let's continue to provide those tax breaks to the super rich because they are the job creators! Right? Well, they've had these tax breaks for over a decade. Where are the freaking jobs? 1 in 4 children in this country lives in poverty.

 

We agree that things are tough all over, but you have not explained how an obese, multi-millionaire demagogue with oversimplified, unworkable ideas, and a penchant for over dramatization, distortion, or flat out prevarication is going to help lead us out of this mess.

 

I am a freelancer with private insurance, no government provided safety net and no horse, by the way. :lol:

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The only movement in this thread is bowel movement.

 

And kropotkin calls me intellectually lazy.

 

I'm only defending Michael Moore's right to participate in the OWS conversation. Not necessarily his ideas. But speaking of, what do you think of his list, kropotkin?

 

 

2. Assess a penalty tax on any corporation that moves American jobs to other countries when that company is already making profits in America. Our jobs are the most important national treasure and they cannot be removed from the country simply because someone wants to make more money.

 

Dubious proposal. Why wouldn't corporations just re-incorporate in the Bahamas or something? Wouldn't something like increasing tariffs on importing complete goods be a better idea? I think the EU has some kind of law like this. A harp maker I know sends harps in pieces to Europe to finish being assembled there, to save on import fees for his EU buyers. Completed products carry a higher import fee.

 

 

6. Reorder our nation's spending priorities (including the ending of all foreign wars and their cost of over $2 billion a week). This will re-open libraries, reinstate band and art and civics classes in our schools, fix our roads and bridges and infrastructure, wire the entire country for 21st century internet, and support scientific research that improves our lives.

Good idea, although I think it was Conquistador who reminded me the one might not lead to the other. At least it would leave more revenue available for other priorities besides fighting wars.

 

 

7. Join the rest of the free world and create a single-payer, free and universal health care system that covers all Americans all of the time.

He is mistaken about the "free" part, as we all know. And he's only calling for requiring Americans to have it. Not "residents of the United States." Why?

 

 

 

4. Reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act, placing serious regulations on how business is conducted by Wall Street and the banks.

I would think most of us can agree on this one.

 

 

10. We, the people, must pass three constitutional amendments that will go a long way toward fixing the core problems we now have. These include:

 

a) A constitutional amendment that fixes our broken electoral system by 1) completely removing campaign contributions from the political process; 2) requiring all elections to be publicly financed; 3) moving election day to the weekend to increase voter turnout; 4) making all Americans registered voters at the moment of their birth; 5) banning computerized voting and requiring that all elections take place on paper ballots.

What are the implications of 4 (my bold)? Why would that be necessary?

 

 

 

c) A constitutional amendment that will act as a "second bill of rights" as proposed by President Franklin D. Roosevelt: that every American has a human right to employment, to health care, to a free and full education, to breathe clean air, drink clean water and eat safe food, and to be cared for with dignity and respect in their old age.

Again, why are we trying to exclude non-American US residents? Political expediency? Ignorance about legally resident non-citizens?

 

What would "right to employment" mean in practice, exactly?

 

I believe that were such a thing as "free and full education for all Americans" to be instated, we'd just create (or exacerbate, if you like) the problem of a two-tiered educational system in the United States where public universities would really, really suck, and a diploma from them would be worth what you paid for it (zero), while recipients of an expensive private university education would receive a much better education and have correspondingly better career and life prospects. It would eliminate the possibility of getting a decent public-university education for a modest cost, compared to the costs of attending a private university.

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We agree that things are tough all over, but you have not explained how an obese, multi-millionaire demagogue with oversimplified, unworkable ideas, and a penchant for over dramatization, distortion, or flat out prevarication is going to help lead us out of this mess.

 

I am a freelancer with private insurance, no government provided safety net and no horse, by the way.

 

I'm not defending MM. I'm not going there. He has a right to his opinion. I agree with many of his points and cinzia makes some good counter points that could be discussed intelligently. I'm sure someone else will jump in...

 

Freelancer? Really? Well Good for YOU! Independently wealthy, then eh? Can't say that I can relate to that lifestyle. My family has to work at companies started by others in order to live.

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You clearly don't know what a freelancer is, moctoj2. How about sticking to the topic and leaving the ad hominem stuff out of it as regards a fellow TTer.

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yeah, like BB? Unlike your comments Conky? oh, oh, don't defend myself right? Because I'm a dirty leftist.

 

Come on Freelancer? That could be anything, consultant, artist...now, let's get back on topic shall we?

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This is the full list from Moore:

 

 

1. Eradicate the Bush tax cuts for the rich and institute new taxes on the wealthiest Americans and on corporations, including a tax on all trading on Wall Street (where they currently pay 0%).

2. Assess a penalty tax on any corporation that moves American jobs to other countries when that company is already making profits in America. Our jobs are the most important national treasure and they cannot be removed from the country simply because someone wants to make more money.

3. Require that all Americans pay the same Social Security tax on all of their earnings (normally, the middle class pays about 6% of their income to Social Security; someone making $1 million a year pays about 0.6% (or 90% less than the average person). This law would simply make the rich pay what everyone else pays.

4. Reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act, placing serious regulations on how business is conducted by Wall Street and the banks.

5. Investigate the Crash of 2008, and bring to justice those who committed any crimes.

6. Reorder our nation's spending priorities (including the ending of all foreign wars and their cost of over $2 billion a week). This will re-open libraries, reinstate band and art and civics classes in our schools, fix our roads and bridges and infrastructure, wire the entire country for 21st century internet, and support scientific research that improves our lives.

7. Join the rest of the free world and create a single-payer, free and universal health care system that covers all Americans all of the time.

8. Immediately reduce carbon emissions that are destroying the planet and discover ways to live without the oil that will be depleted and gone by the end of this century.

9. Require corporations with more than 10,000 employees to restructure their board of directors so that 50% of its members are elected by the company’s workers. We can never have a real democracy as long as most people have no say in what happens at the place they spend most of their time: their job. (For any U.S. businesspeople freaking out at this idea because you think workers can't run a successful company: Germany has a law like this and it has helped to make Germany the world’s leading manufacturing exporter.)

10. We, the people, must pass three constitutional amendments that will go a long way toward fixing the core problems we now have. These include:

a) A constitutional amendment that fixes our broken electoral system by 1) completely removing campaign contributions from the political process; 2) requiring all elections to be publicly financed; 3) moving election day to the weekend to increase voter turnout; 4) making all Americans registered voters at the moment of their birth; 5) banning computerized voting and requiring that all elections take place on paper ballots.

B) A constitutional amendment declaring that corporations are not people and do not have the constitutional rights of citizens. This amendment should also state that the interests of the general public and society must always come before the interests of corporations.

c) A constitutional amendment that will act as a "second bill of rights" as proposed by President Franklin D. Roosevelt: that every American has a human right to employment, to health care, to a free and full education, to breathe clean air, drink clean water and eat safe food, and to be cared for with dignity and respect in their old age.

 

1. No to the trading tax. Don't make raising taxes a pillar of the movement.

2. No. Let companies which are replaced by better companies shrink gracefully. This would be easily circumvented via temp agencies and offshore workers. Employers would be reluctant to hire.

3. Keep the ceiling. AFAIK, the rich don't get a benefit beyond the ceiling to which they contribute.

 

4. Why is this number 4? Why is a list from a movement focused on WS light on ideas for the financial system and the banking system?

 

5. Agree fully.

6. No. OWS is not the vehicle for a foreign policy debate.

7. No. This is an incredibly divisive issue and OWS is not the vehicle for this issue.

8. No. This is an incredibly divisive issue and OWS is not the vehicle for this issue.

9. No. OWS is not a labor movement. Take it somewhere else.

10. No. The constitution should not be amended impulsively. A right to clean air in the constitution? Come on.

 

I agree with points (4) and (5). I would like to propose

 

A. make trading of derivatives more open and transparent.

B. regulate financial institutions sufficiently to prevent systemic risk from entities which are too big to fail.

 

IMHO, the vast majority of Americans would agree with points (4) and (5) as well as (A) and ( B) . Tea Party, OWS, Democrat, Republican and Independent. It would not be difficult to get critical mass with a very focused set of objectives.

 

The biggest risk to OWS is being co-opted by self-promoting opportunists like Moore. Instead of focusing on reform of the financial-government partnership that has basically put us in the worst crisis since the Great Depression, he has produced a laundry list of political points which mostly have nothing to do with financial reform.

 

@moctoj - a freelancer is someone without a permanent contract (among other things) and the safety net you mentioned does not apply. Did you ever actually live in Germany?

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Duh, I've been a freelancer and mentioning that just proves my point. :blink: I lived in Germany between Jan 07 and Aug 09. If things change, I may end up living in DE again in the next 12 months or so.

Thanks for your comments Krop. I didn't post his (MM) list because I thought that would be against the copyright rules on TT.

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Moore is either dishonest or clueless if he thinks that trading is taxed at a 0% rate- maybe he has heard, for example, of capital gains taxes? Presumably his proposed trading tax would also apply to trades made at a loss.

 

moctoj2- someone who is independently wealthy doesn't have to work as a freelance, much less at all.

 

Moore and others talk a good game as if they care about ordinary people, but they're really in it for themselves, as kropotkin points out.

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