How to get a court payment order (Mahnbescheid)

111 posts in this topic

My tuppence worth - the system sucks - we did a few test cases at work.  If people choose to ignore and not pay it's simply not worth taking it further.  So only works to "scare" people into paying. We gave up and never took the cases further as was financially pointless.

​Could you expand a bit?

Why did you not pursue for a Vollstreckungsbescheid to get the bailiffs in? What sort of financial amount were you chasing?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All were I think in the small €300 to €500 range.  Apparently we would have to invest more money to take it further and get some action, so we just dropped the cases.  In the UK the Small Claims Court system is much better.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will the court laugh if I send them a 10 euro claim (including stamps)?
Tried the form, they calculated the costs as 32 euros. Is it correct that I will not have to pay this (I've read PandaMunich posts and the answer seems "yes")?

 

And if the other party doesn't want to pay, will the court still force them to pay 32 euros (if no Widerspruch was sent, of course)?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it's ridiculous and a waste of the court's time.

 

You always have to pre-pay the costs, if you win you'll get them back:

 

Quote

The total cost would be:

1.45€ snail mail cost to send in your filled in form (if you don't go to the court to dictate it)

+ court costs, see here for a table. For example, for a claim of up to 1,200€ the court costs would be 23€.

+ 4.50€ for the court mail costs for informing your opponent about your claim

 

If your opponent does not object to your claim, i.e. you "win", then he will have to reimburse you for these costs (also for the cost of a lawyer should you have hired one).

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, PandaMunich said:

You always have to pre-pay the costs, if you win you'll get them back:

Provided the other party isn´t broke. I once got a Vollstreckungsbescheid  and sent the bailiff. However, all he could get was € 32 which didn´t even cover the cost.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, this wasn't clear to me. So, these costs I prepay and can only get back on Vollstreckung stage (which I of course, didn't want to do).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys!

This topic has been incredibly useful, but a piece of information is missing for me, I hope someone can fill me in.

 

Backstory : I subletted an apartement, which was then given back by the main tenant, long story short : the girl who subletted me the room has no idea how a sublet contract works in Germany, did not set my deposit separate from her money and used it for her new deposit. We had some back and forth, she does not want/have the money to give me back my kaution after now two months, and she is so out of it that I don't trust that she will pay me in full once the hausverwaltung gives back the deposit to her, so I want to be proactive and start the procedure for the full amount.

 

Now, my problem is that I have her address in the contract, but it's her parents' address. She now lives by herself in Hamburg but no idea if she is registered there or not. I would like some clarification on this :

- If I have this address that she gave me, can I use this, or do I need to check if this is the registered one/find out what is the registered address to send the order there? I seemed to understand that the latter is correct but I would like to be sure. 

- Main question: is the process only working if the order is delivered in her hands or to the mailbox? In case she is registered at her parents, she is nevertheless not living there, so she will not be able to get the letter directly from the postman. Is this going to invalidate the process?

 

Thank you for your help!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ladies and gents.. 

 

We had a decorating company do some work on the exterior of our house.  Whilst they were doing their work they damaged our (practically) new drive.  By this I mean they dropped blobs of cement / paint all over it and also chipped some of the blocks.  The guy who had been on site during most of the work said it was their fault as they hadn’t taken care to cover the ground properly and it would be put right via their insurance.

 

It was at this point that it became clear that his company had been sub-contracted by the company we’d signed the contract with.

 

We duly got the company (that had laid the drive) around for a quote for the repair.  They sent it directly to the ‘sub-contract’ company and a copy to us.  €4,500 if you don’t mind.!

 

That was at the beginning of July.  We have telephoned the ‘sub-contractor’, no answer!  We have posted a note in their letter box asking for an update; no answer!  So now we want to take it to ‘small claims’.

 

We emailed the original company, with whom we had the contract, to ask them if they can do anything to resolve the issue before we take it to the courts.  We have said that we will wait until October for an answer.

 

We though we were looking at filing a ‘Mahnbescheid’, but I think these are only for chasing non-payment of invoice / debt.  So now we think we’re looking at filing a ‘geringfügige Forderungen’ at the Amtgericht.  We can only find information on the ‘europäische Verfahren für geringfügige Forderungen‘ which we understand covers small claims between EU member states – but can it also be used for claims within the same EU member state.?

 

 Can we file a ‘small claim’ with the europäische wide forms or is there a more local (German) system that we can use.?  Or any other suggestions / comments are welcome..

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My kid wanted to buy himself a used Macbook Pro around his birthday last year. He found one on eBay-Kleinanzeigen for 1362 € (incl. shipping). My kid agreed with seller on doing the money transfer pr. banking due to seller´s former bad experience with PayPal. I would personally never buy anything without PayPal from eBay-Kleinanzeigen due to the high-rate of frauds. This was different because seller said that he was owner of an electronic store, I could confirm the information online, and he therefore had obtained my reliability.

 

After the money was transferred we didn’t hear from seller, so we started calling directly at his store. Suddenly he replied that the Macbook Pro was stolen from his car/van and I asked him kindly to refund the money, which was paid and he agreed to pay it back. I kept my eyes on the bank account and nothing happened. I called him again and was told that I have to wait due to the insurance process and was not able to payback my money due to that he already spend it on something else. I asked him kindly to get the money from somewhere else (family, friends etc.), due to that I don’t want to have a “debt relation” with a person I don’t know.

 

I told him that I would report the case to the police as an online fraud, if the money wasn’t there after a specific date, due to that he wasn’t really cooperative about repaying my money. The date expired and I went to the Police and haven’t heard from seller since.

 

Here are some facts:

I have found seller’s Facebook and can see pictures of his big BMW, brand clothes and gold watches, which is probably financed via such frauds.

He has his own store, a full time job.

He is selling 10-15 smartphones, smart watches and Ipads private for 100-200 € on eBay-Kleinanzeigen on monthly basis. (I have saved a link for the seller profile)

 

7 months has now past and I received a letter from the rechtsanwalt in Essen. I´m not sure that I understand the content of the letter. (attached)

 

Questions:

Would a “Mahnbescheid” be a smart shortcut/move in my case?

what impact will that have on an already reported case at the police?

 

I have the feeling that the seller above is digging himself a deep hole as more people maybe do the same against him as I did with reporting to the police. However, I fear that in such pot I would only be one out of 100 other creditors on a re-payroll list to share the outcome.

 

IMG-20180122-WA0000.jpg

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, teevee said:

Questions:

Would a “Mahnbescheid” be a smart shortcut/move in my case?

Shortcut? What would the long way be? Criminal case will not get you your money back. (Ignoring that your file has been closed anyways.)

 

Quote

what impact will that have on an already reported case at the police?

None.

 

Quote

I have the feeling that the seller above is digging himself a deep hole as more people maybe do the same against him as I did with reporting to the police. However, I fear that in such pot I would only be one out of 100 other creditors on a re-payroll list to share the outcome.

The longer you wait the lower the chances of getting money back e.g. because the other 100 have been faster than you.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sneaker said:

Shortcut? What would the long way be? Criminal case will not get you your money back. (Ignoring that your file has been closed anyways.)

 

Hand on the heart! I thought that such criminal cases always goes through a court due to that we are living in a justice system. From the letter above, I also concluded that my case was closed and it makes me angry that such person can get away with it and still run a business.

  • Like there are no consequences for such “con artists”.

 

You are right and I would like to nail this person. I still have all the documentation saved, which I gave to the police. (Correspondences and bank-data).

 

I need to sit down, read the main topic through slowly, and try it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I´m lost on the "Allgemeine Angaben" 

 

What would be the correct choice for me? (i´m not sure that I understand what they are writing here)

Capture.JPG

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the first three square boxes, please see no. 18 in this post:

Leave "Prozesskostenhilfe" and "GNR-Mahngericht" empty.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

For the first three square boxes, please see no. 18 in this post:

Leave "Prozesskostenhilfe" and "GNR-Mahngericht" empty.

 

You mentioned that most cases would be the first box, would that also apply to my case as above? (Guy sells laptop, but don’t ship it after receiving money)

 

·         I tried reading your further details and I would choose the first box, but I also want to double-check due to that this kind of things are always filled with “exceptions”

 

 

The seller gave me a copy of his “bescheinigung”. I suspect, that he wanted to make a “insurance fraud” out of this and I therefore have his private address. It was reported on 29.04.2017. Is there a way to check if seller I still living on this address or is it acceptable to send it directly to his store? (He is store-owner/ Geschäftsführer)

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, teevee said:

would that also apply to my case as above? (Guy sells laptop, but don’t ship it after receiving money)

 

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, teevee said:

The seller gave me a copy of his “bescheinigung”. I suspect, that he wanted to make a “insurance fraud” out of this and I therefore have his private address. It was reported on 29.04.2017. Is there a way to check if seller I still living on this address or is it acceptable to send it directly to his store? (He is store-owner/ Geschäftsführer)

 

You bought it from him privately, via ebay Kleinanzeigen, so fill in his private address.

 

But first confirm that he's really still registered at that address by contacting the Einwohnermeldeamt of his city. They will tell you for a small fee (under 10€) whether he is or not, you just need his name and his (old) address from that Anmeldebescheinigung: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melderegisterauskunft#Einfache_und_erweiterte_Meldeauskunft

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎25‎.‎01‎.‎2018‎ ‎11‎:‎22‎:‎51, PandaMunich said:

 

Yes.

 

 

You bought it from him privately, via ebay Kleinanzeigen, so fill in his private address.

 

But first confirm that he's really still registered at that address by contacting the Einwohnermeldeamt of his city. They will tell you for a small fee (under 10€) whether he is or not, you just need his name and his (old) address from that Anmeldebescheinigung: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melderegisterauskunft#Einfache_und_erweiterte_Meldeauskunft

 

I spoke with my colleagues at work about the situation. One of my colleagues asked me an interesting question.

 

What is actually considered a valid evidence of a fraud in a courtroom if it comes to that?

 

I was told that Whatsapp and ebay-kleinanzeigen maybe cannot be considered a valid proof of evidence even though that the original messages is saved on my smartphone and ebay-kleinanzeigen account.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, teevee said:

What is actually considered a valid evidence of a fraud in a courtroom if it comes to that?

 

Whatever the judge decides.

 

1 hour ago, teevee said:

I was told that Whatsapp and ebay-kleinanzeigen maybe cannot be considered a valid proof of evidence even though that the original messages is saved on my smartphone and ebay-kleinanzeigen account.

 

And is your colleague a lawyer?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 26/1/2018 15.46.12, PandaMunich said:

 

Whatever the judge decides.

 

 

And is your colleague a lawyer?

 

Your right, so I filled in the form and shipped it on 30 January and received the invoice on Saturday (03 February) and paid it ASAP.

 

It is now exciting to see how the person will react on my dispute.

 

Thank you for the tip above with contacting “Einwohnermeldeamt”. It was also very straight forward and I found out that the person moved to another address.

 

Another small work-around/thought, which came to my mind: (I won’t do it now, due to that I think it could interfere with my current case)

·         Would “Online-Streitbeilegung” also have worked in this case, due to that seller represented himself as business seller? -> https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main/?event=main.home.show

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎26‎.‎01‎.‎2018‎ ‎15‎:‎46‎:‎12, PandaMunich said:

 

Whatever the judge decides.

 

 

And is your colleague a lawyer?

 

My „Mahnbescheid” fee was soon paid about 2 weeks ago and I have not received any update or information concerning the process.

 

I understand from the main topic, that the person has 2 weeks to either pay or object the Mahnbescheid before I can go to next step in the process aka enforcement order (Vollstreckungsbescheid).

 

Question:

How do I check the status of my Mahnbescheid?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now