Gentrification and Yuppification in Berlin

113 posts in this topic

 

No worries in Berlin though of course. The good citizens far prefer "quirky" small booksellers and in no way decide on price or product range like mere consumer plebs do. Just as they never ever order anything off the internet either and particularly not off amazon.

 

It's funny but I don't see this "sterility". Travelling in three other major eastern European cities recently and several western ones on top, sure you see a lot of the same global names now but there were also any number of viable alternatives if you wanted them. That's exactly how the big cities work.

 

No, it hasn't happened in Berlin, and hopefully never will. But Dublin definitely suffers from it. It's a conformed little city that, apart from the bars (which is a conformed little industry of it's own in that neck of the woods) has the major brand stores and that's it. Still, that is what Dublin seems to want.

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These quirky little businesses will have to adapt like everyone else then won't they? It is business after all not a charity they're running. ...

 

 

 

... but you can have too much of a good thing.I think the more "quirky" places just need to adapt and be more creative rather than sitting back and moaning about it.

 

I said that... :huh:

 

I think it's just that some people don't like to admit to themselves that however cute and quirky these businesses are there aren't enough people sacrificing their money to a small shop which for the 50%+ overlapping products with big chain stores are almost always more expensive; differentiate or die, it's that simple, I don't agree with just blindly proping up a small business just because it's small/cute/quirky (I've heard many arguments like this before and it's often because the person's point is laced in anti-capitalism and a red Che Guavara t-shirt, i.e. they don't shop in Tesco's even if it makes clear fiscal sense). I'll go to small shops if the service rocks, they know their stuff and the price isn't way over what I could buy it for from a chain store/online (or of course its bespoke and I can't buy it anywhere else full stop).

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Here's a refresher for you:A business functions to earn profit through providing something of value via the market. Those who can't make that happen either need to find another method of applying their vision of the world or they need to change their game.

 

Is this what one learns for an MBA these days? Was your last job assistant-manager in the poultry section at Wal-Mart? Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that you're on Guido Westerwelle's payroll? You read like you should be living in fucking Frankfurt or Munich, not Kreuzberg, you muppet.

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Is this what one learns for an MBA these days? Was your last job assistant-manager in the poultry section at Wal-Mart? Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that you're on Guido Westerwelle's payroll? You read like you should be living in fucking Frankfurt or Munich, not Kreuzberg, you muppet.

 

Do you have a point? I suggest sharing your flames with me personally and sparing the community.

 

 

I think it's just that some people don't like to admit to themselves that however cute and quirky these businesses are there aren't enough people sacrificing their money to a small shop which for the 50%+ overlapping products with big chain stores are almost always more expensive; differentiate or die, it's that simple, I don't agree with just blindly proping up a small business just because it's small/cute/quirky (I've heard many arguments like this before and it's often because the person's point is laced in anti-capitalism and a red Che Guavara t-shirt, i.e. they don't shop in Tesco's even if it makes clear fiscal sense). I'll go to small shops if the service rocks, they know their stuff and the price isn't way over what I could buy it for from a chain store/online (or of course its bespoke and I can't buy it anywhere else full stop).

 

Yep. If I want to do my community a favor I don't do it by throwing money down the tubes for overpriced boutique goods. I don't consider shopping worthwhile, 90% of the time. If I can run into H&M and buy enough socks and crap for the next year, I'm stoked. Thank you, H&M, for saving me countless hours, and providing me with decent enough if somewhat un-hip undergarments at very affordable prices. With that time and money savings I can do something perhaps even more constructive for my community then the designer selling quirky 30 euro socks is -- like giving 30 pair of 1-euro socks to charity.

 

For example: I've had the idea to take stones out of the street, paint 'em red, and sell them for a buck apiece on May Day.. To the "anarchists" in the Che hoodies and Doc Martens screaming at everyone about the evils of capitalism.

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.For example: I've had the idea to take stones out of the street, paint 'em red, and sell them for a buck apiece on May Day.

 

Great! Do it, Mr Neo-Liberalism. Cut out the middle-man. What a terrific business idea!

 

Idiot.

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I figure there is a sufficient market of angry consumers with one euro to spare who would go for it. Better yet, buy the stones, call it art, and sell them for one thousand! I'm gonna get rich like the rappers across the street! :lol:

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Idiot.

Hmmm... you ever heard how someone resorting to ad hom usually points to them having already lost the debate?

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Better yet, buy the stones, call it art, and sell them for one thousand!

 

Go for it, I've seen worse things on the mauerpark fleamarket :)

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I stayed in both Freidrichshain and Prenzlauerberg when they were still low-rent. It is inevitable that districts become gentrified precisely because of the artists looking for low-rent districts. These areas become attractive because the artists make them so. Then they become safe and trendy and the gentrifiers move in.

 

If we can take the example of San Francisco's North Beach district, where the same thing happened many years ago, there are still low-rent places in these areas. In SF for example, Indians buy up the cheap hotels and continue to run them as cheap hotels.

 

The gentrifiers are mainly interested in "flipping," i.e., they buy, renovate, sell, and move on. They are part of the middle class trying move up by manipulating property.

 

The yuppies who then move into these areas are attracted by the bohemian ambience and by the cafes made famous by the artists who need low-rent places. They then try to kick out the type of places that were there before, like the working-class bars, porno shops, etc., by saying they don't like the "element," or some such epithet.

 

If you are an artist moving into such an area you have to race to start making money before your neighborhood gets gentrified, so you can keep up. (If you are a poet, forget it.)

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I will prob get the stereotypical replies to this post but people do need to look at this from both sides, we have a lot of property in Berlin, mainly the east, 2 things perhaps people who post here don't see is there are still a huge amount of German owners who only rent to German tenants, that is changing but the numbers are still huge, that means expats having to sub rent off others who make a profit of that situation, in the short term a few months that's ok but long term that type of situation has to be wrong, but it's the way it is, I'm sure many of have experienced this, I know I have.

 

Gentrification is always driven by the customer, two points here you can market a property at any price but people will only ever pay what they think it's worth so the customer set prices, but also when a tenant passes away or moves out we look at the apt and decide what to do with it, in many cases the apartment where tenants have been there 20 or 30 years are almost 3rd world conditions, it's very sad to see the condition older German tenants have been prepared to live in, and prob even worse when you see those conditions in apartment where the owner has had the chance to bring the living standard up to the minimum you would expect, some apartments have truly been discussing with outside toilets, no kitchen of any note etc, but tenants back then were happy with low rents, and some German owners still rent these out on the property managers advice, and that has to be wrong, but in these buildings owners can do as they wish, so whilst it turns my stomach when we open apt doors to see this, I have to accept owners have the right to let people live like that, and the sad thing is there are enough tenants to fuel the demand for that type of property.

 

For us it's been a real shock how little money German owners put into their property inside and outside, but you can't have it both ways, for people who want low rent there are plenty of German building owners offering that, just don't complain about your living conditions.

 

I'm not saying we run a perfect ship, but we do have minimum standards and allow any nationality to be a tenant, and more and more German building owners are relaxing and doing the same, but there is still a huge amount of owners living in the 70's it's a shame some of the people who post here have not seen apartments where a old lady has passed away and there has only been a pipe coming from the wall as a shower, or where there has been just one coal heater to heat a whole apartment, I'm not saying we get it right every time, but perhaps before people jump on the bandwagon blindly they should think what they would do with an apartment when it becomes vacant and is in such poor condition, I take it all or most of the posts are from people who have no actual experience of owning a building in Berlin.

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The yuppies who then move into these areas are attracted by the bohemian ambience and by the cafes made famous by the artists who need low-rent places. They then try to kick out the type of places that were there before, like the working-class bars, porno shops, etc., by saying they don't like the "element," or some such epithet.

 

You forgot to mention that the places the yuppies move from never actually recover. It's not like once your neighbourhood becomes uncool again you'll get back the cheap rents and working class bars. Once the vibe has run dry (and with the pace that happens in Berlin that could be within a couple of years for somewhere like Prenzlauer Berg) all you are left with is a bunch of middle-class, car owning families who have little desire to frequent hip bars and restaurants or go to the spaetkauf at 3am.

 

I hope I'm wrong and that all the yuppies stay up in P'Berg where they belong, but Kreuzberg is oh-so bohemian right now whereas P'berg is already dull as shit for anyone that likes it a little dirty.

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I'm a bit confused with all this talk of yuppies. Is this referring to everyone under the age of 40 who has a job? How would the city function without this class of people?

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Not to the smart people who partake of these conversations, but you'll find enough that fit that profile. I can't think of any industry or commercial enterprise that benefits in the long run from price controls, however I can't think of any that benefit from rampant speculation either.

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You forgot to mention that the places the yuppies move from never actually recover. It's not like once your neighbourhood becomes uncool again you'll get back the cheap rents and working class bars. Once the vibe has run dry (and with the pace that happens in Berlin that could be within a couple of years for somewhere like Prenzlauer Berg) all you are left with is a bunch of middle-class, car owning families who have little desire to frequent hip bars and restaurants or go to the spaetkauf at 3am.

 

I hope I'm wrong and that all the yuppies stay up in P'Berg where they belong, but Kreuzberg is oh-so bohemian right now whereas P'berg is already dull as shit for anyone that likes it a little dirty.

 

Yuppies means YUP, Young Upscale Professional. They will move into an area if there are jobs for them nearby. If the jobs dry up, then they will move out. When the dot com boom burst in America around 2001, many of the tech workers who worked in silicon valley california, were without jobs, so they had to leave. Also look at some of the residential districts in suburbs in the US. They used to have middle-class white families, but when they became unfashionable or there was no more work for them in the area, they moved out. Then poorer black and white people moved in. In older districts where the middle or upper middle class has left, artists or students will all rent a single room in a flat. But I suspect Berlin is on the right side of this curve.

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You forgot to mention that the places the yuppies move from never actually recover. It's not like once your neighbourhood becomes uncool again you'll get back the cheap rents and working class bars. Once the vibe has run dry (and with the pace that happens in Berlin that could be within a couple of years for somewhere like Prenzlauer Berg) all you are left with is a bunch of middle-class, car owning families who have little desire to frequent hip bars and restaurants or go to the spaetkauf at 3am.

 

I hope I'm wrong and that all the yuppies stay up in P'Berg where they belong, but Kreuzberg is oh-so bohemian right now whereas P'berg is already dull as shit for anyone that likes it a little dirty.

 

From all accounts I've heard the 'hip' parts of berlin now just used to be derelict-ridden dumps without anything to offer. Three cheers for 'gentrification'

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OR perhaps all the hipsters in the areas just do a good job of hiding the fact that they have trust funds.

 

the upscale businesses are coming to these areas for a reason. and it's not to try to tap into the squatter market.

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A year's worth of greenies. Seriously, I will give you a greenie every time I log on.

 

 

The Guardian.

 

 

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I don't understand why this is an issue.

 

See, the way that things work is that those people who work hard earn money which gives them some benefits over those people who are lazy and do nothing. Otherwise, if everyone was just entitled to exactly the same thing, then there would be no benefit to working harder and everyone would do nothing.

 

And one of those benefits is that those who work hard and earn money get to have the first choice of where they live, while those who don't have to make do with whatever's left over. If all the people with jobs decide to move to a certain area which has been occupied by the unemployed, then they either have to get a job with an income that lets them stay there, or move to another one of the left-over areas...That's how it works.

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See, the way that things work is that those people who work hard earn money which gives them some benefits over those people who are lazy and do nothing.

 

Ok, you're from munich (or maybe from another planet), but this is not how things work. At least not in Berlin. There are many many people working hard, earning virtually no money at all.

 

 

If all the people with jobs decide to move to a certain area which has been occupied by the unemployed, then they either have to get a job with an income that lets them stay there, or move to another one of the left-over areas...That's how it works.

 

That's how it works - but does it mean that it's good? I mean - that's the way ghettos arise in the end...

I'm no hardliner when it comes to anti-"gentrification", but I do see the drawbacks.

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Ok, you're from munich (or maybe from another planet), but this is not how things work. At least not in Berlin. There are many many people working hard, earning virtually no money at all.

 

Oh - has the Berlin wall been put up again? Are all those people trapped there and can't get out? If people think that life is so shit in Berlin and it's so hard to get work, and even if you do get work you don't get paid properly, then move somewhere better. I hear it a lot and it's not an argument. I'm not from Munich originally, but one reason I choose to live here is that it's prosperous. There's no reason to hang around in a place that you can't afford to live and look across at other cities with envy, is there? I love visiting Berlin, but I'd be an idiot to move there if couldn't make a decent living even if I worked hard. Much better to live in Munich and enjoy a good quality of life and visit Berlin a few times a year...

 

 

That's how it works - but does it mean that it's good? I mean - that's the way ghettos arise in the end...

I'm no hardliner when it comes to anti-"gentrification", but I do see the drawbacks.

 

So what do you want? That people who don't work and don't contribute get to live in the same good areas as those who work hard? Should we give all "poor" people the same things that rich people can afford?

 

Where's the incentive to earn a decent living then?

 

I'm all for helping the poor with food and shelter - but it should be the most basic of both. Subsistence food, and shelter in places that nobody else wants to live.

 

If you want things better for yourself, then go out and do something about it. If you can't get them in the place you're living, then move somewhere where you can. Don't just sit in your shithole with your shit life and no money and complain about people who worked themselves into a better position in life.

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