Signed for private health insurance by mistake

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You could then find that pretty much all of the contributions dissappear into the overheads.

 

I doubt if there will be any serious change in the current system - there are too many interests to keep it going.

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And we will be in the top tier of public- maxed out, that is, and we still find it both cheaper (and safer, considering the risk of future increases) to move into the public system. That's why I find it amazing that anyone else doesn't find it so.

 

 

I'm finding it amazing that in the face of overwhelming evidence you still think that public is cheaper in all cases.

 

As I understand it, your husband is working and you are not. If you have kids, your situation is going to be borderline, but for anyone who has both spouses working, private is almost always going to be cheaper if you're maxed on the public (even if you have kids).

 

Public maxes out at 650 euros. It depends on your age, but you could definitely cover 2 adults on private with that with the same cover as the public system offers. Kids only cost about 150 euros a month (at most, under 100 euros if you'll accept basically the same conditions as public). For a family with 2 kids and both parents working, private is almost certainly going to still be cheaper.

 

Further to that, your idea that public is safer considering the risk of future increases is completely unfounded. Public insurance over the last 20 years has increased at a far higher rate than private insurance and I don't see any reason to assume that's going to change. For example, when I came to Germany there were companies offering public insurance for under 12%. Now it's 15.5%. That's an almost 30% increase for people on public. Meanwhile my private insurance has gone up 10% in that time.

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I'm finding it amazing that in the face of overwhelming evidence you still think that public is cheaper in all cases.

 

As I understand it, your husband is working and you are not. If you have kids, your situation is going to be borderline, but for anyone who has both spouses working, private is almost always going to be cheaper if you're maxed on the public (even if you have kids).

 

Public maxes out at 650 euros. It depends on your age, but you could definitely cover 2 adults on private with that with the same cover as the public system offers. Kids only cost about 150 euros a month (at most, under 100 euros if you'll accept basically the same conditions as public). For a family with 2 kids and both parents working, private is almost certainly going to still be cheaper.

 

Further to that, your idea that public is safer considering the risk of future increases is completely unfounded. Public insurance over the last 20 years has increased at a far higher rate than private insurance and I don't see any reason to assume that's going to change. For example, when I came to Germany there were companies offering public insurance for under 12%. Now it's 15.5%. That's an almost 30% increase for people on public. Meanwhile my private insurance has gone up 10% in that time.

 

Obviously not in all cases- those who think the level of insurance that we consider necessary is overdoing it.

 

We have had lots of offers for private insurance, but we started with the perhaps strange concept of stating what we wanted that insurance to cover, and having that priced. In every case, private was significantly more expensive. But then, we aren't a young couple with no children either. And we aren't getting any younger.

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Gail123: are you actually reading any of the fact we are giving you or do you simply belong to the kind of people who say: spare me the facts, I already have an opinion? Right now, frankly speaking, you sound like the latter...

 

Cheerio

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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Gail123: as you can see from my contri above, I am with you with regards to the critizism of the in parts irrational and often unjust German health system. However, I can't follow you with simplification as to the "higher security regarding future increase" of health insurance costs in public health insurance vs private health insurance. Have you ever really and in detail compared the increase in costs of the public health insurance for the past, say, 2-3 decades in comparison to private health insurances? And said cost increase needs to include on the public side both the actual increase in contributions AND the loss of coverage.. because a loss or reduction in coverage means you have suddenly to pay for it by yourself and that is, too, a very tangible increase in costs, only too often disregarded by folks who don't do a comparison based on facts and numbers.

And when you say, you looked into private insurance... did you do that all by yourself or did you have some qualfied professional and hopefully independent) help with that. Because, frankly speaking: if you did it by yourself, the result is most certainly worthless as even professional experts like me have a hard time of comparing coverage you get and money you pay for it among private health insurances and then with public insurances and any laymen without the full help of rather complex and expensive (btw) software won't be able to do this.

this does not mean that perhaps in your case you are really better off with public health insurance when looking at current numbers. This could be and without anymore facts, I won't dispute that. But to make a rule out of your singular case is really not helping other ExPats to find reliable information for what is in the end a rather complex choice to make.

One size may fit all when it comes to baseball caps - but not in insurance business, neither health nor any other insurance for that matter.

 

Finally: I am a happy father of one and soon enough of two. And my whole family is private insured and better of both cost wise and coverage wise at the same time. Snce both of us, my wife and I work and have incomes over the threshold, we would normally have to pay 1.260 EUR in public insurance without proper dental and hospital coverage... and now we are "only" paying together around 800 EUR and that will increase by another 130 EUR when our second daughter is born. As you can easily see: even with a third and a fourth child we would be still better off with private health insurance. Case closed.

 

last but not least: I have friends who would love to have children. But they can't for medical reasons. they are not hedonistic, they pay an awefull lot of taxes and already support the public welfare quite a lot with that. Why should they go with a public private health insurance now... ? And there are many of those and you might want to put yourself every now and then into the shoes of others like that before you judge so harshly about everyone who has no children and earns good money. And on the other side there are unfortuantely enough people who should not have children in the first place... and we read about these cases in the news and are flubbergasted as to how people can mistreat little children like that.

Not everyone who has children is a good person and valuable contributor to the public good and not everyone who is without children is a self-centred hedonistic person. Can we at least agree on that?

 

Cheerio

 

Starshollow, my comment on the "hedonistic" lifestyle of the childfree was aimed at those who seem to aim a big bazooka at those who have children as users of the public resources. I'm not even thinking that those who have children are anything, per se. I'd be happy to agree that the concept of citizens having children is a societal good. Perhaps in another forum we could chit chat about those we know who should have had more, less, none- whatever. My remark was not aimed at anyone who didn't take aim first.

There is an economic concept of the free rider, and that is not aimed at anyone in specific. After all, it is in one's best interests to maximize the personal bottom line. That's why certain goods should be considered public and controlled as such. I think public insurance/ health insurance should be one such item.

Certainly the societal effect of the way Germany has priced insurance is such that there is a negative effect upon taking up a second job. That's why my sister-in-law works full time and her spouse took off elternzeit and then chose to not go back to work fulltime: the negative impact on the family was not compensated by the additional money he would have made by working full time. There are many other ways Germany has chosen to have a structure that make it difficult to have a two income earner family when one has children. In addition, just about everything we do here is income dependent: the more one earns, the more one pays.The incremental beneficial impact of the second salary are, imho, less important here than they are in the US due to the decreased net amount of each additional dollar earned. That's the way it impacted our decision as to whether I would look for a "real" job here while our children are young.

In my Orienteerungskurse, we looked at lots of national statistics: I don't have the book to hand, but I'm sure some of you who think my case is not normal do: the societal norm has been for individuals to maintain a one income earner structure when there are small children. In Berlin, that seems to exhibit itself as single headed families, but that's not so in other areas. It's not surprising that the public system in both primary and secondary education, shopping, and insurance makes this form of structure easier. Whether you agree with it or not.

 

I certainly do read other comments posted (although not on the vaccine post)- there are a lot of interesting and intelligent people on this forum. Some of them are tremendously helpful. We all have different circumstances that shape our understanding. I would never go private if there were any chance that I might want to have a few children, take time off from work (or have my spouse do so), leave the country for an extended period of time, and so on. I think the original poster is quite likely to do at least a few of those things.

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Gail123: you raise many good and valid points... as already mentioned before. What me and some others above tried to do is show you that there are a number of cases where even with children a private health insurance can be and is the better option, thus underlining that there are no "absolutes" when trying to decide whether going the public or private way is the better one with regards to health insurance. But we would all agree that a family with one single income - for whatever reason it is that there is only one income - with several children will be better of right now in the public health insuruance. For many others, if they have a choice under the current system, private health insurance offers better coverage for lower amount of money. This is why it is strongly recommended to get professional and independent advice if you are newly arriving in Germany or planning to move to Germany and have to make the initial decision.

 

Cheerio

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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A quick question: if you're in compulsory public insurance, what happens when you hit the earnings threshold and *don't* want to change? I'm thinking a bit ahead here (my income's not in that range), but I'd like to know what the options are. If you stay public at that point, do you just keep paying the maximum contribution of 650 euros of your own free will and plod along happily? Basically, my pre-existing conditions make me highly unattractive to most insurers, and I really doubt I'd find anything cheaper even in the short-to-medium term, so I'd like to know I'm not in for a nasty surprise.

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Yes, you just continue to pay the maximum after you hit that limit. You will not be kicked out of the public system.

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Hey Guys, I have some new information regarding the Private insurance, and I would like to ask you all for some advice:

 

So here is the situation.

 

My husband is in a private insurance - a very good and expensive one.

I am with a student insurance with AOK and I am pregnant.

I'm gonna be 30 in June and the baby will be born in SEPTEMBER.

 

WE spoke with our advisor today and he suggested:

 

The baby to be insured in the private versicherung which is gonna cost us more 150 euros but the baby will have the best insurance. (he suggested us to have the baby insured at least until he is 1 1,5 years so we can make sure he is really healthy and afterwords we see...) We then would have an insurance for the baby whithout deductable.

 

After the baby is one year he suggested us to change the insurance for a cheaper tariff for my husband and the baby and by then If I have a job the baby can come to my insurance.

 

About me now: As I am turning 30 in June, and my student insurance goes until August/september, or I have to get a private insurance (the baby will be born in Setptember) or I can stay with the regular insurance which is gonna cost pretty much the same... we are guessing something around 300 euros 400 euros per month.

 

Although, the advisor says as a student I would be able to stay in the student insurance for more 3 years since I am having the baby and I am still studying. AOK sort of tells me I would be able to stay in the insurance If the baby was born before I become 30 Years OLD, but they say if I sort of prove I am not able to have more credits because I am pregnant and so on, I might have a chance to have more 3 years of student insurance.

 

Does anyone know anything about it (student + pregnancy + 30 years old)?? Can someone advise and tell me if my advisor is doing a good job?? :)

 

THANK YOU ALL!!!

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Am breathing life back into this thread to avoid starting a new one with the same title.

After the huge help I was given in "UK pension S1 form and Krankenkasse agreement", I've been going through TT with a fine-tooth comb, compiling a document of pertinent info. Hence falling over this post.

 

In Sept.2007, we moved to Germany. We had a grace period (2 years?) where our health insurances were covered by the NHS. The new regulations came into force on Jan.01.2009.

 

We were recommended an independent broker (who turned out not to be so independent after all, but c'est la vie) and, post medical tests, signed on the dotted line with Victoria in May.2009.

I clearly remember the conversation with the broker about private -vs- public, and the emphasis that was put on "better in every way" wrt private.  So that's what we did.

 

This post made me think, so I checked, and in 2007 my DE income was way less than 47,700; same applied in 2008, 2009, 2010, ...  It very much looks like we should never have been allowed to sign up for Privatschutz in the first place.  

I am very reluctant to get the broker into trouble, partly because I live in a small town, and partly because it's all so old now.  Nevertheless, I would very much like to know if, after all this time, I could challenge DKV (Victoria was taken over, then again, and again, and now DKV) - who will not, and do not have to, accept my UK S1 form - and get the whole shebang reversed.

@john g. @Starshollow @PandaMunich @Anyone Else: I would very much appreciate some input.

 

 

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7 hours ago, MaineCoon said:

This post made me think, so I checked, and in 2007 my DE income was way less than 47,700; same applied in 2008, 2009, 2010, ...  It very much looks like we should never have been allowed to sign up for Privatschutz in the first place.  

 

If you were self-employed the minimum income threshold does not apply. 

 

I think you should start a new thread and but ALL relevant info together. 

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5 hours ago, engelchen said:

If you were self-employed the minimum income threshold does not apply. 

Damn, you're right.  I clearly need to form my document into a decision tree - there's a lot in there, and I missed it.  Do you know where the statute is that covers this particular subject, ie self-employed -vs- employed?

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5 hours ago, engelchen said:

I think you should start a new thread and but ALL relevant info together. 

I'd be happy to if others would find it helpful, but need to finish compiling it, it's a tad messy at the mo.

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7 hours ago, MaineCoon said:

Damn, you're right.  I clearly need to form my document into a decision tree - there's a lot in there, and I missed it.  Do you know where the statute is that covers this particular subject, ie self-employed -vs- employed?

So were you self-employed? If self-employed and , as Engelchen pointed out , it would be a moot point as in this case income would be irrelevant. Mind you, you mention „ we „? 
We? Was a family situation discussed with the insurance agent? ( Guaranteed NOT an independent broker, by the way, based on the way he or just classified private insurance as the best thing since sliced bread.)

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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20 hours ago, MaineCoon said:

Am breathing life back into this thread to avoid starting a new one with the same title.

After the huge help I was given in "UK pension S1 form and Krankenkasse agreement", I've been going through TT with a fine-tooth comb, compiling a document of pertinent info. Hence falling over this post.

 

In Sept.2007, we moved to Germany. We had a grace period (2 years?) where our health insurances were covered by the NHS. The new regulations came into force on Jan.01.2009.

 

We were recommended an independent broker (who turned out not to be so independent after all, but c'est la vie) and, post medical tests, signed on the dotted line with Victoria in May.2009.

I clearly remember the conversation with the broker about private -vs- public, and the emphasis that was put on "better in every way" wrt private.  So that's what we did.

 

This post made me think, so I checked, and in 2007 my DE income was way less than 47,700; same applied in 2008, 2009, 2010, ...  It very much looks like we should never have been allowed to sign up for Privatschutz in the first place.  

I am very reluctant to get the broker into trouble, partly because I live in a small town, and partly because it's all so old now.  Nevertheless, I would very much like to know if, after all this time, I could challenge DKV (Victoria was taken over, then again, and again, and now DKV) - who will not, and do not have to, accept my UK S1 form - and get the whole shebang reversed.

@john g. @Starshollow @PandaMunich @Anyone Else: I would very much appreciate some input.

 

 

If you were an employee back then and under the income threshold for private insurance, your payroll dept would have noticed that and let you know you couldn’t sign up for private insurance.

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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43 minutes ago, john g. said:

So were you self-employed? If self-employed and , as Engelchen pointed out , it would be a moot point as in this case income would be irrelevant. Mind you, you mention „ we „? 
We? Was a family situation discussed with the insurance agent? ( Guaranteed NOT an independent broker, by the way, based on the way he or just classified private insurance as the best thing since sliced bread.)

"We" = my partner and myself. Yes, we were both self-employed as software engineers, and worked on different aspects of the same projects for the same organisations (USA govt, Google, ... )

 

The discussion with the agent basically boiled down to "private: good. public: bad" (I compress).

There was no reference to the future whatsoever, ie. "What are your pension plans", no reference was made to the NHS being public, and certainly none to "private is a one-way street". 

I should perhaps say that the poor woman was fitting us out with every insurance under the sun at the same time (building, contents, computers, life, travel, you-name-it).

 

 

 

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Had you just come from the NHS in the UK? 

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1 hour ago, john g. said:

Had you just come from the NHS in the UK? 

Yup. All sweet an' fresh an' naive an' stoopid. :(

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@john g. I can put my hand on my heart and say that, until you told me on Apr.26 that "DKV are a private insurer. You have been privately insured. So you cannot expect them to accept your S1 form. That is for people who have been publicly insured and wish to continue that way as a pensioner." I had no idea that this one-way exclusive street was the case.  What's more, my ex-partner thought the same until Apr.27 when I told him what you had said - he's beside himself with rage (he's younger than me).

I'm staggered by my stupidity, carelessness, ignorance, and sheer incompetence. I believed that by finding an English-speaking, independent broker to whom we gave all our business, we were assured of good advice and a good service. Silly me.

 

I asked my brother (lives over the road, married to a German, been here since 2004) WTF! he hadn't clued me in. He's an employee, came from the USA, and hadn't thought about it - he just did what his wife told him to do.  Then I asked his self-employed wife; she said "I lived in the USA my entire adult life, I had no idea, my father sorted it out for us".  (Her father died a while back.)

And, of course, not only did we not have any German friends when we first came to counsel us, but our German was dire.

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18 hours ago, MaineCoon said:

Damn, you're right.  I clearly need to form my document into a decision tree - there's a lot in there, and I missed it. 

 

 

You don't need a decision tree now, you need to first establish the facts. I suspect that a few of your decisions cannot be reversed nor are 'heilbar'.

 

18 hours ago, MaineCoon said:

Do you know where the statute is that covers this particular subject, ie self-employed -vs- employed?

 

SGB V, however, I'm not sure that reading individual laws will help you untangle your problem if you don't understand how they fit together. 

 

 

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