Mobbing by employers in Germany

[Rushrush 284]

8 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

I've been here 30+ years and I've never heard of it.

 

Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong people?

 

Nope Deutsche Bank  does it, VW does this, Bosch does this. It's a very common tatic in Germany. One of my students mentioned that he's seen it before. Another friend working as a translator, they ran out of work so they told her to come in and sit at her desk all day, She lasted 5 months before quiting. Companies train senior excutives on how to mob people (legally) into quiting.

 

It's really odd as I can't seem to find anything online, but I know it's very common. Maybe I'm using the wrong words, googled mobbing but only get generic information.

 

 

[MikeMelga 7,212]

28 minutes ago, Rushrush said:

Soooo resurrecting a 17 year old thread I've learned that it is common in Germany for companies to force employees to quit by putting them in an empty office with no computer or phones. Also you're not allowed to bring in personal effects, phones, books etc with you. This is in essence paid solitary confinement but seems to be very wide spread. Has happened to a number of people I know.

 

So is this not mobbing?

This is common practice in Portugal. But in some cases you can fight against it (in Portugal).

I remember 20 years ago, on the .com bubble burst, they placed 20 SW guys in a tiny room, no AC, no computers, nothing. They all quit in the same day.

[Rushrush 284]

A bit of background. My wife's job was outsourced and she decided to stay with the company as the new company has a horrible reputation. Also did our researching to talk people, union rep etc asking what was the best choice so she reject the transfer opting to stay with her current firm. Unfortunately that turned out to be a mistake. If your company outsources your department your screwed regardless.

Anyways, our thinking was that since she is in ATZ that she would go off sick (very justified) and simply run the clock out, less than a year to go. Unfortuntely we screwed up badly as in ATZ if you are off more than 6 weeks the time (or 50% of it)n gets added on to the end of the contract. So you're not gaining anything.

 

So 2 possible options. First one is they cancel the ATZ contract which means she becomes a regular employee again and she can go off sick up to the max. At that point it's possible to quit without ALG penalty. At least according to our doctor.

 

2nd option is they don't cancel ATZ and she gets a lawyer and fights them. They turn around and try and fire you. What she was told by a very knowledgeable co-worker is to simply run the clock out the case. Once you hit the passive time the case is over. At least that's she was told but now not so sure.

 

I’ve been scouring the internet for information on what happens if the company tries to terminate your employment but it seems to be slim pickings. I’d talk to the union but they were

pretty useless.

Has anyone had an experience fighting termination?

 

[Metall 14,483]

1 hour ago, Rushrush said:

I've learned that it is common in Germany for companies to force employees to quit by putting them in an empty office with no computer or phones

 

I've been here a long time and have heard of it *a single time* in this country.

 

It IS however something that is done in Japan.

[jeba 4,295]

41 minutes ago, Rushrush said:

A bit of background. My wife's job was outsourced and she decided to stay with the company as the new company has a horrible reputation. Also did our researching to talk people, union rep etc asking what was the best choice so she reject the transfer opting to stay with her current firm. Unfortunately that turned out to be a mistake. If your company outsources your department your screwed regardless.

 

 

Anyways, our thinking was that since she is in ATZ that she would go off sick (very justified) and simply run the clock out, less than a year to go. Unfortuntely we screwed up badly as in ATZ if you are off more than 6 weeks the time (or 50% of it)n gets added on to the end of the contract. So you're not gaining anything.

 

 

So 2 possible options. First one is they cancel the ATZ contract which means she becomes a regular employee again and she can go off sick up to the max. At that point it's possible to quit without ALG penalty. At least according to our doctor.

 

 

2nd option is they don't cancel ATZ and she gets a lawyer and fights them. They turn around and try and fire you. What she was told by a very knowledgeable co-worker is to simply run the clock out the case. Once you hit the passive time the case is over. At least that's she was told but now not so sure.

 

 

I’ve been scouring the internet for information on what happens if the company tries to terminate your employment but it seems to be slim pickings. I’d talk to the union but they were

pretty useless.

 

 

Has anyone had an experience fighting termination?

 

 

What about trying to get a "Aufhebungsvertrag" and a "golden handshake"?

[john g. 37,429]

45 minutes ago, Rushrush said:

A bit of background. My wife's job was outsourced and she decided to stay with the company as the new company has a horrible reputation. Also did our researching to talk people, union rep etc asking what was the best choice so she reject the transfer opting to stay with her current firm. Unfortunately that turned out to be a mistake. If your company outsources your department your screwed regardless.

 

 

Anyways, our thinking was that since she is in ATZ that she would go off sick (very justified) and simply run the clock out, less than a year to go. Unfortuntely we screwed up badly as in ATZ if you are off more than 6 weeks the time (or 50% of it)n gets added on to the end of the contract. So you're not gaining anything.

 

 

So 2 possible options. First one is they cancel the ATZ contract which means she becomes a regular employee again and she can go off sick up to the max. At that point it's possible to quit without ALG penalty. At least according to our doctor.

 

 

2nd option is they don't cancel ATZ and she gets a lawyer and fights them. They turn around and try and fire you. What she was told by a very knowledgeable co-worker is to simply run the clock out the case. Once you hit the passive time the case is over. At least that's she was told but now not so sure.

 

 

I’ve been scouring the internet for information on what happens if the company tries to terminate your employment but it seems to be slim pickings. I’d talk to the union but they were

pretty useless.

 

 

Has anyone had an experience fighting termination?

 

 

If you have legal insurance, isn't it easier to let a good lawyer " scour the internet " for you?

[fraufruit 41,609]

Arbeitsgericht.

 

If they shut me in a room, I would take my laptop, lock the door and work a side hussle.

[Rushrush 284]

Update: found the correct word in German, "Kündgung Schutz Klage", and found what I need. Makes a huge difference in using the correct terminology!

 

https://xn--fachanwaltfrarbeitsrecht-5sc.net/kuendigung/abfindung-aenderungskuendigung/

 

Using google translate it did a reasonable job of explaining what happens when the company wants to lay you off. Short version is you use your lawyer to try and negotiate a settlement

 

 

[LukeSkywalker 7,543]

1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

If they shut me in a room, I would take my laptop, lock the door and work a side hussle.

Initially, I was thinking of taking a long nap, but side hussle is better. 

[MikeMelga 7,212]

3 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Arbeitsgericht.

 

If they shut me in a room, I would take my laptop, lock the door and work a side hussle.

I've actually witnessed these situations in Portugal, in person. They don't allow anything in. No  wall power, sometimes no light, no phone, no laptop, no magazines.

It drives people nuts. But sometimes they don't have free space, so they put multiple persons on the same room, so they end up chatting all day long. In any case, it drives people nuts.

 

I have a friend, business owner, and he actually did it to an employee. In his case, I agreed. The employee was filmed damaging expensive machinery several times during lunch breaks, on purpose. He was fired, but the (commie packed) labour court forced him to hire him back. Of course he wouldn't allow him back in production, so he placed him within 4 walls until the employee accepted a settlement.

[Chelski 1,427]

4 hours ago, El Jeffo said:

I've been here 30+ years and I've never heard of it.

 

Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong people?

 

Referencing other threads, I've never understood the snow flake, or woke attitudes, new arrivals have when arriving in Germany.

 

Yes, it's a culture clash at first but grow some big balls and get in their faces. Early. It works.

 

It's a beautiful country to live in, full of beautiful people.

 

Some of them might even be German.

 

[optimista 5,778]

11 hours ago, Rushrush said:

So is this not mobbing?

 

Clearly it is. Reminds me of my boss, a full time freelancer with an office and secretary - me - in a patent attorneys chancellery. He was simply given no more work from one day to the next. I was assigned to other attorneys as my boss was producing nothing and earning nothing. I left before he did, two months later, as I had also had enough of the despicable bastards.

[mako1 858]

17 hours ago, Rushrush said:

Update: found the correct word in German, "Kündgung Schutz Klage", and found what I need. Makes a huge difference in using the correct terminology!

 

https://xn--fachanwaltfrarbeitsrecht-5sc.net/kuendigung/abfindung-aenderungskuendigung/

 

Using google translate it did a reasonable job of explaining what happens when the company wants to lay you off. Short version is you use your lawyer to try and negotiate a settlement

 

 

If you have legal insurance, you can get some help. There is also the option to go direct to the (local) Arbeitsgericht and ask for some guidance there, in German. My legal insurance recommended starting there. At the Arbeitsgericht you can start a 'Klage' (more or less a lawsuit) but that is just the opening gambit to bring the parties to a negotiation.

The Arbeitsgericht is there to decide if the the parties are following the rules and will generally try to get the parties to negotiate (under the auspices of the Arbeitsgericht). You don't get a lawyer, it's byo. Know what the rules are is the first rule.

If the payout is a better deal than the ATZ, then it might be best. But a negotiation where they know that you know what your rights are is always a good starting point.

[Lorelei 1,877]

Sorry to hear of your wife's situation, Rushrush. Hope you can find a satisfactory resolution.

 

Isolation and deprivation of work were identified as aspects of bullying by the late Tim Field, author of Bully In Sight (which I can highly recommend).

 

Quote

 

... Predictable patterns

 

Workplace Bullying tends to happen in phases that Tim Field called (1) Isolation, (2) Control and Subjugation and (3) Elimination. ...

 

Isolation ...

• being isolated and separated from colleagues, excluded from what's going on, marginalized, overruled, ignored, sidelined, frozen out, "sent to Coventry" ...
   

Control and Subjugation ...

• having all their work taken away and replaced with either menial tasks (filing, photocopying, minute taking) or with no work at all ...

 

https://www.timfieldfoundation.org.uk/index.php/what-is-workplace-bullying

 

 

Home pages for that site:

 

https://www.timfieldfoundation.org.uk/old/

https://www.timfieldfoundation.org.uk/index.php

[anne k 3,643]

Is there a Beratungsstelle für Mobbingopfer nearby? A letter from your doctor that you are suffering from Mobbing will get you ALG immediately on resigning, but you can back it up with a visit to a Mobbing expert. I have seen someone do this with the doctor's letter alone, though. https://www.heimarbeit.de/mobbing-am-arbeitsplatz-arbeitslosengeld-ohne-kuendigung-moeglich/

[anne k 3,643]

For €40 a year you can also join the Arbeitnehmerhilfe and get some legal advice, if you do not already have legal backing: https://www.arbeitnehmerhilfe.de/rechtsberatung.html

[Rushrush 284]

Quick update: we won, it takes balls of steel we did it. Not fun and could have really avoided all of this but such is life. One thing that really helped is my wife had a friend who really knew the ins and outs of how the company worked, her advice was priceless, not sure we would have won without her help!

 

[fraufruit 41,609]

Congrats!

[Metall 14,483]

We need details!

[Keleth 9,255]

Congrats on winning.

 

This is a reason why you need Betriebrats and Unions despite people thinking they´re commies and bad for business.