1st written warning from employer

103 posts in this topic

Thanx Sosarx, hopefully a lawyer won't be necessary. The contract is only one more year so maybe I will just keep my nose clean and find something else with a little more urgency (and shut up when I should shut up).

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Hmmm.  You may have a problem, Houston.  If you are intending to find that "something else" Fritz-side, then you may need this current boss's Zeugnis.  I would get call that lawyer because he/she can tell you all about the special German "Zeugnis language."  Its another language.

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Zwischenzeugnis already in hand, Vicar. This is not a surprise. I had to write it myself as the boss knows no German (with native speaking wife helping of course). 

He still has to provide a non negative Arbeitszeugnis, eventually. 

 

Thanks all for the advice. I will talk Monday to the Betriebsrat and see if they recommend a course of action/shill.

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thanks Olsha for the advice. Be assured there are no good intentions left in this go around. I talked to the Personalrat (surprise, they are not allowed to defend temporary, i.e. the vast majority, of employees at the uni). But he pointed out that the letter is not in fact an Abmahnung. It is my chance to respond to specific charges.

 

For others in similar straights, it was made clear to me that one in this position can either:

     1. not respond (which does not indicate acceptance or admit guilt) - the employer decides without your input (thankfully not my direct boss)

     2. accept the charges and hope it is settled at that level (which could lead to an official Abmahnung or not) or

     3. defend oneself.

 

I went with three with a lawyer. It is a set fee (as far as I could understand) for a certain level of letter writing up to but not including any court appearances. He thinks that the charges (for lack of a better word) do not reach the level of getting me fired immediately. This is all I care about at this point. If I get an Abmahnung for a temporary job (that I don't really like) I don't see it as a problem. It does not follow me.

 

I also explained to him that there is 11 months left on the contract. So neither I nor the Uni want to spend a lot of resources slugging this one out. What my boss wants (since he probably doesn't get billed for the time the uni puts in trying to dismiss me, if that is what they attempt) is another thing. But he is part of a bigger system (and that is the lesson he needed to learn). The uni gets to decide if the offences are the level of an Abmahnung or if they are so egregious (don't often get to use that word) as to warrent immediate dismissal. Both the lawyer and Personalrat did not think that possible (I provided the lawyer with my 17 page defense with email documentation detailing why the charges are so spurious).

 

Even if I do go to court and sue, in such Arbeitsrecht cases you are only entitled to your job under the same previous conditions, you don't get to have your fees paid. So HEM, the insurance would have been a very smart thing. But if I was smart, I would not be in this position...

 

I also asked the Personalrat/Lawyer about getting out of my contract somehow. That really confused them both. Apparently, any change in contract that I sign to shorten my unhappy length of stay at the uni will result in me getting a 3 month Sperrfrist with the Arbeits Agentur. (I told my boss once, I can't quit and you can't fire me, trying to get him to realize we had to try and find some common ground. Unfortunately, I think he took it as a challenge).

 

 

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Hello,

On what grounds can be a Warning Letter be cancelled ?

If the facts are invented or proofed on not being reality ?

And how is this done ?

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8 hours ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Hello,

On what grounds can be a Warning Letter be cancelled ?

If the facts are invented or proofed on not being reality ?

And how is this done ?

 

Works council or union might help, but normally you would need to Lawyer up and challenge it officially.

 

However, it might be worth not doing this at this moment.

If you challenge it now there might be a chance that you can get it overturned, but you will reveal your hand to them and they might be able to then adjust the warning to counter act these challenges or it can often just result in the company going looking for another reason to give you a different written warning.

 

 

But I was once discussing a similar topic with a person who was a member of a works council, and they told me that if you challenge it later then it can have some advantages.

If you are later dismissed by the company and you take them to court then this will come up to show what a "bad" employee you were.  If you then challenge this and at this stage are able to show that this was incorrect in some way (either procedural or in your case you say the facts were fabricated) then the judge would dismiss this and deem it invalid.  This will then make your case against them very strong and likely help you to win.  This way, you don't reveal your hand to them, so they cannot prepare against it and they also are often surprised that you challenge something which they (falsely) assumed you had accepted.

 

 

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Unfortunately no work council, so alone with no help .

My feeling is that soon I will be fired based on these warnings, so in any case I have to lawyer up I guess . I hope that I can leave on my own terms but in any case even I quit they will still remain on my file ? Is there any way to remove them ?

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Hello Everybody.

 

Long story short. I have just received 1st written warning from my employer. I do have German contract (unbefristet) , however company is based outside Germany with its branch here in Berlin (GmbH).

In my team there have been several grievience/mobbing cases over last couple of years. Management is really sneaky and now with its changed structure I´ve got a feeling they want to make people resign as all of us have permanent contracts...I am sure this is a part of cutting-the-cost strategy etc.

The warning I have received is regarding relationship with my Team Leader which has always been poor (actually it was poor with all team members). They said I had used some inappropriate wording/cursing during one of our discussions which was not the case . The funny thing is that this guy was sacked in a very strange circumstances couple of days ago and company says it was due to ´legal issues´. Surprisingly, a few days after they are giving me the warning...

 

My questions are:

 

1) Can I refuse to sign the paper?

2) Is it okay that company is bringing it up after 2.5 months without having any kind of evidence? Occurence took place in December.

3) Isn´t it strange that one of the parties involved in the case has already left the business?

4) Given the fact that we do have disciplinary procedure in place, HR skipped all the stages (there was no formal hearing of any kind) and wrote me up right away. For me this is arbitrary...

 

I am just wondering if I should go to the lawyer but not sure if it's all worth it? I have started my job search but have a feeling they are hunting for me,in a way.

 

Thanks !

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Did you get an Abmahnung or an Ermahnung? The difference is important!

The Abmahnung is the first step towards firing, the Ermahnung not.

And neither measure requires a hearing under German law.

 

For an Abmahnung I recommend seeing a lawyer.

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14 hours ago, Metall said:

Did you get an Abmahnung or an Ermahnung? The difference is important!

The Abmahnung is the first step towards firing, the Ermahnung not.

And neither measure requires a hearing under German law.

 

For an Abmahnung I recommend seeing a lawyer.

The letter itself is in English and it says explicitly WRITTEN WARNING

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I'd be temped to ask for the letter in German.

You work in Germany so any info you have to present to anyone for anything will have to be in German. This would tip them off that you may be out looking for legal advice though.

If there are to types of warning in German and only one in English then you will eventually need to know which one you've been sent.

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Life is short. Good people can and do move on, although it is becoming increasingly difficult... Nobody can make you sign anything. So don't. Is the position worth the fight? If not, use your time and energy to get out. Don't let the bastards get you down. And don't make anything easy for them if this is their game. Lie and deny if need be - because they will. Good luck.

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2 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

I'd be temped to ask for the letter in German.

You work in Germany so any info you have to present to anyone for anything will have to be in German. This would tip them off that you may be out looking for legal advice though.

If there are to types of warning in German and only one in English then you will eventually need to know which one you've been sent.

 

Indeed. A document written in English has no legal relevance in Germany.

Don't sign it, and spend the 200 Euros for an intial consultation with a lawyer to make sure. This is your job on the line.

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5 minutes ago, Metall said:

 

Indeed. A document written in English has no legal relevance in Germany.

Don't sign it, and spend the 200 Euros for an intial consultation with a lawyer to make sure. This is your job on the line.

Will do like this, thanks a lot for your help!

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Just now, Metall said:

 

Indeed. A document written in English has no legal relevance in Germany.

Don't sign it, and spend the 200 Euros for an intial consultation with a lawyer to make sure. This is your job on the line.

On a flip side, it would be funny of that letter really (I can't say for certain) has no legal basis in Germany as it is on English (OP - check this with a lawyer) and the company send out the next two, sack the OP, OP takes them to court, company say 'we followed legal procedure', judge sees letters, says 'this isn't valid as it is in english'.

 

Fun aside, OP, go and see a lawyer, take this as kick to go and get legal insurance if you don't already have it. If you do, call them, go see lawyer and do not sign anything until you have.

 

I got a written warning once which I signed as I was going to leave the company anyway. Company didn't have any legal grounds but as I was on my way out I just wanted to keep things smooth etc. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

On a flip side, it would be funny of that letter really (I can't say for certain) has no legal basis in Germany as it is on English (OP - check this with a lawyer) and the company send out the next two, sack the OP, OP takes them to court, company say 'we followed legal procedure', judge sees letters, says 'this isn't valid as it is in english'.

 

Fun aside, OP, go and see a lawyer, take this as kick to go and get legal insurance if you don't already have it. If you do, call them, go see lawyer and do not sign anything until you have.

 

I got a written warning once which I signed as I was going to leave the company anyway. Company didn't have any legal grounds but as I was on my way out I just wanted to keep things smooth etc. 

 

 

Could be funny indeed :)

I am on my way out too, but just trying to play with them now as I've got nothing to lose. They've played nasty game since the beginning so now it is gonna be payback time :D

Jokes apart, will sleep on it and decide...

 

Thanks for your input anyway!

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25 minutes ago, Abysmo said:

Could be funny indeed :)

I am on my way out too, but just trying to play with them now as I've got nothing to lose. They've played nasty game since the beginning so now it is gonna be payback time :D

Jokes apart, will sleep on it and decide...

 

Thanks for your input anyway!

Have a think and work out which exit strategy is best for you. Ideally one that keeps you there until you fond something else.

 

And if you can afford it, go and get that legal insurance (and make sure it has employment disputes covered in there). At some point you will need a reference from them and that my be worth running through your legal insurance to make sure there are no negative phrases in there.

 

Good luck.

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For those that don't have legal insurance, the 'Arbeitnehmerkammer' offers free legal advice on employment law, which might be a good first step before paying for a lawyer.  (I haven't used their services, just saw an advert today - www.arbeitnehmerkammer.de)

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3 minutes ago, sluzup said:

For those that don't have legal insurance, the 'Arbeitnehmerkammer' offers free legal advice on employment law, which might be a good first step before paying for a lawyer.  (I haven't used their services, just saw an advert today - www.arbeitnehmerkammer.de)

Thanks sluzup for this hint! 

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On 11/03/2021, 11:05:32, Metall said:

A document written in English has no legal relevance in Germany.

 

That is not necessarily true.

 

 

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3 hours ago, engelchen said:

 

That is not necessarily true.

 

That's my knowledge, did that change? Do you have a source?

Each and every German Amt always demanded notarized translations of any non-German document from me citing exactly that statement...

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