The laws about employees and Kurzarbeit

[bbogdanmircea 18]

Just a confirmation, that Kurzarbeit does not affect ALG in case of a Kündigung, so if you worked 24 months then had 5 months KUG null then the company fires everyone you are still entitled to 12 months of ALG?

[LeonG 14,795]

17 hours ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Just a confirmation, that Kurzarbeit does not affect ALG in case of a Kündigung, so if you worked 24 months then had 5 months KUG null then the company fires everyone you are still entitled to 12 months of ALG?

 

According to  https://www.versicherung-in.de/kurzarbeit-danach-weniger-arbeitslosengeld-oder-alg-ii-3138/  the time on KUG will not affect how many months you are eligible or the amount you get.

[emkay 10,150]

I’m not sure if I understand this correctly regarding the percentage paid of the Kurzarbeit shortfall...60% with no children, 67% with children. My husband asked his HR department why his shortfall addition is only 60%.  He was told that’s because my daughter (his stepdaughter, Freibetrag on his Lohnsteuerkarte) is now over 18.  
 

Shouldn’t he receive the 67% as she was still at school when Kurzarbeit started and will start university in October? Does it make a difference that she won’t still be living at home from October and will receive her Kindergeld directly?  Is there an issue because school finished in July and she is still home and not working until October when uni starts?
 

Any advice very much appreciated. 

[RaspberryBeret 6]

Hi everyone,

 

Just bumping up this thread as I didn't quite find an appropriate addressing of my exact issue.

 

I've been working for a small company, which is now closed for the Lockdown (has been since Nov 1st) and prior to that was shut in the spring. I'm still a bit confused about the KUG situation and my employer is not at all clear or forthcoming about the actual "law" side of things.

 

Here is the situation:

- I, along with a couple of other full time staff get 60% net of our pay check monthly (so the "classic" KUG). We are all currently home, as mentioned, our place of work is closed. None of us have children.

- The company is like family-run, for the lack of a better word, and we're often in touch with ea other and are frequently asked to do this or that by our boss. Our business needs to be physically open to operate but there is a part of work with an online component, so stuff like website maintenance, ad hoc marketing bits and so on, those need & can be done remotely.

Shouldn't we get paid for this, additionally to the 60% KUG? And this should come from the company itself? 

 

I was under the impression, from my research (here as well) and talking to friends, that the 60% is like a "placeholder" of sorts, so that instead of being laid off, your employer is being given this financial aid to keep your position for you and you get something to live off of. But if there is actual work to be done, this needs to be financially addressed by the employer, does it not?

 

I don't mind at all an occasional 1-2hrs a week to keep the business going and would like the business to survive, so I have a job to come back to, but sometimes it gets to the point where there is quite a bit to do. The boss in question, while mostly nice, is really weird when it comes to this and avoids discussion or blames "lazy Germans who only want to get 60% of their pay and do nothing".

 

PS. There was a summer month when we were expected to work 90% of our contracted full time & got paid 90% of our net salary BUT 60% of that was paid by the gov't KUG and only 30% by employer. This is also not legit is it?

 

Thanks in advance and Happy Holidays!

 

 

[vivanco 173]

3 hours ago, RaspberryBeret said:

Shouldn't we get paid for this, additionally to the 60% KUG? And this should come from the company itself? 

Seems  that you are on 100% on KUG, ie. getting 60% of your net salary from finanzamt. In this case you are not suppose to work for your company. In case you are not 100% on KUG, then you are suppose to work partially depending upon the KUG criteria. 

 

3 hours ago, RaspberryBeret said:

PS. There was a summer month when we were expected to work 90% of our contracted full time & got paid 90% of our net salary BUT 60% of that was paid by the gov't KUG and only 30% by employer. This is also not legit is it?

If you work 90% then you should get 90% of salary from the employer plus 60% of the lost salary from finanzamt. So in end you get more than 90%. When I was in 20%KUG, I received around 96% of my net, but worked 80% only. 

[LeonG 14,795]

20 hours ago, RaspberryBeret said:

I don't mind at all an occasional 1-2hrs a week to keep the business going and would like the business to survive, so I have a job to come back to, but sometimes it gets to the point where there is quite a bit to do. The boss in question, while mostly nice, is really weird when it comes to this and avoids discussion or blames "lazy Germans who only want to get 60% of their pay and do nothing".

 

If you work, you should be getting your normal salary for the hours worked and kurzarbeitgeld for the rest.   An employer should let Arbeitsamt know each month how much each employee has worked.  If you worked 10 hrs. he will have to pay you for the 10 hrs. and Arbeitsamt will pay him your 60% for the hours you didn't work.

 

Also if you had 50% work or less for 3 months, your KUG should go up to 70% for the 4th month and after 6 months should go up to 80.  You can see this here: https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/m/corona-kurzarbeit/

 

It sounds like your employer doesn't feel like updating arbeitsamt how much each person is working and expects  you to pick up extra hours for free.  He's not supposed to do that.  However, he is probably bleeding cash trying to keep the business going with a substantial loss of income.  Even with KUG, it's not like he's paying nothing to keep you on the payroll.  He's still paying your health insurance. That is what my boss tells me anyway.

 

[ahammed 30]

@LeonG can you please advice me on my certain Kurzarbeit condition? I have a notice period of 3 months as written in my job contract. Recently I found a new job and want to switch after 2 months. My current employer which is a Diensleister is putting me on Kurzarbeit from January this year without any agreement or consent with me. I asked them several times if they can send an agreement to release me after 2 months. But they don't communicate with me in phone or in email. They also don't want me to pay after my resignation. They asked me to be still in Kurzarbeit. What should I do now?

 

I wanted to take a lawyer, but it seems very costly because I don't have the insurance.

[Keleth 9,279]

1 hour ago, ahammed said:

putting me on Kurzarbeit from January this year without any agreement or consent with me.

They don´t need your consent as far as I know because usually it´s a case of kurzarbeit or arbeitslos.

 

[LeonG 14,795]

3 hours ago, ahammed said:

@LeonG can you please advice me on my certain Kurzarbeit condition? I have a notice period of 3 months as written in my job contract. Recently I found a new job and want to switch after 2 months. My current employer which is a Diensleister is putting me on Kurzarbeit from January this year without any agreement or consent with me. I asked them several times if they can send an agreement to release me after 2 months. But they don't communicate with me in phone or in email. They also don't want me to pay after my resignation. They asked me to be still in Kurzarbeit. What should I do now?

 

I wanted to take a lawyer, but it seems very costly because I don't have the insurance.

 

The kurzarbeit is based on helping you stay employed with your employer so as soon as they let you go or you give your notice, you are no longer entitled to it because your employment with them is ending.  For example, if you give your 3 month notice now, they would have to pay you your full salary but obviously can also require you to come in to work.

 

As far as I know, they do need your agreement to put you on kurzarbeit, however, the alternative would be a layoff.

 

To get out in exactly two months, you could suggest to your employer that you do an aufhebungsvertrag.  They will probably not want to do it until in 2 months though because then they can keep you on Kurzarbeit for 2 months, however, the alternative for them is that you give your notice and they will have to start paying you in full.

 

[ahammed 30]

On 4/24/2021, 3:38:47, Keleth said:

They don´t need your consent as far as I know because usually it´s a case of kurzarbeit or arbeitslos.

 

@Keleth, thanks for your reply. I checked on internet and found that employees consent is very important. Obviously alternative is layoff.

[ahammed 30]

On 4/24/2021, 5:38:02, LeonG said:

 

The kurzarbeit is based on helping you stay employed with your employer so as soon as they let you go or you give your notice, you are no longer entitled to it because your employment with them is ending.  For example, if you give your 3 month notice now, they would have to pay you your full salary but obviously can also require you to come in to work.

 

As far as I know, they do need your agreement to put you on kurzarbeit, however, the alternative would be a layoff.

 

To get out in exactly two months, you could suggest to your employer that you do an aufhebungsvertrag.  They will probably not want to do it until in 2 months though because then they can keep you on Kurzarbeit for 2 months, however, the alternative for them is that you give your notice and they will have to start paying you in full.

 

@LeonGThanks a lot. I had a meeting last week with the director. The agreement is: I don't give a Kündigung and stay in Kurzarbeit for next 2 months. Or if I give them notice I have to move 300 KM away from my residence in 1 day notice and start working for them. The work can be as a cleaner even although I am an engineer. I asked them to provide me a related job based on my qualification but they don't have any. I agreed with them that I can be in Kurzarbeit but they need to pay me at least the Progressionvorbehalt.  They did not agree. The director said it is a blackmail to them although if I ask for it but I think the opposite is true. I find it not proper to take kurzarbeit money from government when I want to resign but they threatened me to join their office far away from my last assigned project in 1 day notice and do odd jobs. When I worked with them, they promised a lot of things but unfortunately they never kept the commitment. I feel like as I am a foreigner I have no further scope to come to a better agreement. The worst place I worked ever.

[bbogdanmircea 18]

Hello, is it possible during the Weekend in Kurzarbeit to leave Germany and fly and return on Monday, or you must stay in Germany.

What is the reasonable time that you have to be available for your employer?

[Keleth 9,279]

6 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Hello, is it possible during the Weekend in Kurzarbeit to leave Germany and fly and return on Monday, or you must stay in Germany.

What is the reasonable time that you have to be available for your employer?

Is the weekend a normal working time for you ?

[bbogdanmircea 18]

No, I don't work weekends, forgot to mention this.

[LukeSkywalker 7,595]

In the weekend you can go crazy during Kurzarbeit. The Monday you should plan as holiday. The employer will not apply for Kurzarbeit on that day then. My employer applied for Kurzarbeit on a weekly basis.

[bbogdanmircea 18]

Thanks!

What if it is KUZ0? Should you give notice that you go, is it reasonable for you to return Tuesday if they ask you to work on Monday?

How grey is this area?

[Keleth 9,279]

7 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

No, I don't work weekends, forgot to mention this.

Yer like he says,weekend is yours if  its not a normal working day.

[Keleth 9,279]

12 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Thanks!

What if it is KUZ0? Should you give notice that you go, is it reasonable for you to return Tuesday if they ask you to work on Monday?

How grey is this area?

I´d try answering if I knew what that was

 

[bbogdanmircea 18]

Kurzarbeit 0 or 100% depends how you see it.

[LukeSkywalker 7,595]

If you apply for holiday, Kurzarbeit doesn't apply. It doesn't matter if you're on 0%, 50% or 100%. I was on 100% last year and took my planned holidays like scheduled. Holiday means not available for work.