The laws about employees and Kurzarbeit

190 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, BelleFaster said:

@LeonG, so in a reduced hours situation my employer is responsible for the 50% AND the kurzarbeitergeld? 

 

Yes, that's what it looks like to me.

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A little update. After my company spoke to their lawyers I am now back on full-time hours with full pay for the duration of my notice period. Thanks so much for the advice here, I'd have been completely lost without it. 

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Hello, anybody knows what the legislation says about traveling abroad during Kurzarbeit, especially when there is 100% Kurzarbeit so no work at all?

Would this be possible or there is some rule that you must be physically available within a certain time?

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Your employer applied for you Kurzarbeit for a certain period, e.g. weekly or monthly and this can be extended depending on the situation, but for your planned holidays Kurzarbeit doesn't apply, so the government doesn't pay. Talk to your employer when you want to take holidays: you can't just leave the country.

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16 hours ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Hello, anybody knows what the legislation says about traveling abroad during Kurzarbeit, especially when there is 100% Kurzarbeit so no work at all?

Would this be possible or there is some rule that you must be physically available within a certain time?

 

Kurzarbeit is not paid holidays.  You can't go away during your Kurzarbeit.   If you want to travel abroad then apply for holidays.

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Many of the people I know during Kurzarbeit 100% have been gone for months camping around Germany, so I don't understand why you can't go abroad also for some time, as long as you can return within one day and can also work remotely if needed.

What is the difference?

Also for most companies it is not possible to apply for holiday during Kurzarbeit 100%.

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4 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Kurzarbeit is not paid holidays.  You can't go away during your Kurzarbeit.   If you want to travel abroad then apply for holidays.

What is the definition of "go away"? Is it possible to go outside DE in the weekends? It is possible to go to Netherlands or Belgium which is like 20 km away?

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Again,  Kurzarbeit is not holidays.   You are supposed to be available to show up to work.   Of course you can do whatever you want in the days you are normally not supposed to work, same during non-working hours.

 

In real life you most probably can get away with it, but that does not make it legal.

 

Edit:   https://www.tcilaw.de/aktuelles/detail/fragen-und-antworten-zu-kurzarbeit-und-kurzarbeitergeld/    #16

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Ok thanks.

Any idea about the Vacation Days for the months of Kurzarbeit? Are there also reduced proportionally to the % of not working?

So if you have 2.5 days vacation/month, and you have 4 months Kurzarbeit 50% then you get only (4 x 2.5) x 50% ? So if you have 100% Kurzarbeit then you lose vacation for all those months?

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6 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Ok thanks.

Any idea about the Vacation Days for the months of Kurzarbeit? Are there also reduced proportionally to the % of not working?

So if you have 2.5 days vacation/month, and you have 4 months Kurzarbeit 50% then you get only (4 x 2.5) x 50% ? So if you have 100% Kurzarbeit then you lose vacation for all those months?

 

The calculation of holidays during the Kurzarbeit is a can of worms, believe it or not, there is no law in German defining this, at least not the last time I checked.    And the problem is the politicians can't get to an agreement about this.    Then according to European laws, technically you could have no right to holidays when doing Kurzarbeit 100%.   You can google "Kurzarbeit Null"  for more information.

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It is complicated, it kind of makes sense to have no holidays if you didn't work, but then at the same time the employee does not have the freedom to go anywhere he wants because technically Kurzarbeit is no holidays.  So if the Kurzarbeit extends for a long period you won't be able to take real holidays.  This issue was never legally tested because this is the first time we have companies doing "Kurzarbeit Null" for a long period of time.  The only similar case that was tested was taking a Sabbatical year and the outcome from the Urteil was the logical thing, you should not have right to holidays when you are in permanent holidays, but the two situations are not really the same.

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For me KUG 100% should be same as ALG I, which if I am not mistaken has the rule that as long as you go the the Arbeits Agentur and let them know when you would like to take holiday and they approve it, then you can take 2 weeks/year or something like that.

KUG 100% is really nice for german nationals as you can travel whenever you want so basic like holiday, but for other nationals who technically can't leave Germany to visit this is not quite like a holiday.

Any ideas for Kundigung during Kurzarbeit, is there an possibility to reduce the Kundigungfrist when finding a new job from 3 months to let's say 1 month without getting into trouble? Is it possible if only an agreement is made with the company like an Abfindung or something like that?

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According to  https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/urlaub-waehrend-der-kurzarbeit-jeder-hat-ein-recht-auf.735.de.html?dram:article_id=478517  if you have kurzarbeit 40%, you only earn 40% holidays during that period.  However, since holidays are legally calculated in weeks and not days, after you go back to full time and want to take holidays you earned while you were working 40%, they have to re-calculate your holidays in order for you to get your weeks. 

 

I find this a bit confusing.  If somebody normally has 24 days holidays and he worked full time from January until March, he has earned 6 days.  From April until August he's working 2 days a week earning only 4 days holidays for those 5 months instead of 10 days.  If he takes holidays during this time, he gets a week off for each 2 vacation days whether he uses the days earned in January or in April.  If he doesn't use his vacation, according to the above link, his vacation entitlement of 4 days earned during kurzarbeit would have to be brought up to 10 to represent 2 weeks when he goes back to full time.

 

Even worse if you have kurzarbeit zero.  You are then working zero days and earning zero vacation days, which however will have to be brought up to full vacation days once you go back to full time?

 

If someone doing kurzarbeit zero would ask for vacation entitlement, he could get a couple of weeks off using zero of his vacation days?

 

The other question is vacation pay.  During kurzarbeit 40%, would the employee who is only using 2 vacation days only get paid for 2 days and the employee who is on kurzarbeit zero get nothing?  According to  https://www.stern.de/wirtschaft/job/urlaub-waehrend-der-kurzarbeit---das-muessen-sie-beachten-9304472.html  you should get paid full from your employer during vacation while you have kurzarbeit which makes me wonder why you shouldn't use 5 days.

 

i agree that doing kurzarbeit zero, the idea is probably not that you'll be travelling the world but I don't think either that you are expected to put on your work clothes in the morning and sit all day and wait for your boss to call you.  As far as I can google, the employer can call you back to work with one day notice so if you don't go further than being able to get back in one day, you should be ok.  In some cases, workplace contract, union agreement etc. the notice to go back could be a bit longer.  

 

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I agree totally with the last paragraph from the previous post!

Can you provide a link about the 1 day notice for being back?

I could really use that in case of a prolonged Kurzarbeit and no possibility to take the vacation days earned at the beggining of the year.

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1 hour ago, bbogdanmircea said:

I agree totally with the last paragraph from the previous post!

Can you provide a link about the 1 day notice for being back?

I could really use that in case of a prolonged Kurzarbeit and no possibility to take the vacation days earned at the beggining of the year.

 

What I had found on this were not official links but more like union forums where it was being discussed and the general consensus was that they had to give you one day notice unless you already have a contract saying it's more. Some people mentioned having a few days notice in their contract and some mentioned having to arrange childcare if they were called back. However looking again now I found this https://www.juraforum.de/lexikon/abrufbereitschaft-waehrend-kurzarbeit which seems to indicate that you should be ready to work during working hours and that you might even be put on standby by your employer. Do you think your employer is likely to call you and want you to come in right away?

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Not really, I just want to understand what are the rules as it seems to me that is is not clear if you are supposed to stay at home in your work clothes and be ready day and night to go to work, or there is some reasonable time like 1 day from getting the notice to get back to work.

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https://www.igmetall-berlin.de/aktuelles/meldung/kurzarbeit-wir-beantworten-haeufig-gestellte-fragen/#:~:text=Kurzarbeitergeld%20ist%20grunds%C3%A4tzlich%20steuerfrei.&text=Zusch%C3%BCsse%20des%20Arbeitgebers%20zum%20Kurzarbeitergeld%20sind%20steuerpflichtig.,Arbeit%20dann%20wiederaufgenommen%20werden%20muss.

 

Marked in yellow.

 

But again, nothing is detailed.   I would in general assume that something reasonable like one day of notice is expected.    Except if you work in some sort of dynamic/emergency job, but then somebody would have already told you that they can call you during the day any day, or even, put it in written somewhere.

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Look, I was on Kurzarbeit 100% and my manager informed me one week ahead via email that he applied for Kurzarbeit the following week. It needed to be approved by the works' council. He would extend it as long as necessary on a weekly basis. I also had holidays planned, so he wouldn't apply for Kurzarbeit for those days, so the government didn't pay and the company paid. I also took a certification exam one day and my manager didn't apply for Kurzarbeit for that day as well. My company is with IG Metall.

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During my googling I actually found a post from some poor guy who was put on Kurzarbeit zero but was still expected to be on call out in case they needed him. He was not very happy with it.

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