The laws about employees and Kurzarbeit

68 posts in this topic

37 minutes ago, cybil said:

Kurzarbeiter must show up to work (unless they have a Krankenschein) whether they have anxiety about catching coronavirus or not:

https://www.arbeitsrechte.de/wie-sich-corona-auf-die-arbeit-auswirkt-anwesenheitspflicht-und-lohn/

 

 

Found this pearl here:
 

Quote

Wie ist es jedoch, wenn der Arbeitgeber während der Kurzarbeit Überstunden anordnet? Dies ist grundsätzlich unzulässig, denn indem ein Unternehmen Kurzarbeit einführt, signalisiert es: „Es ist nicht genug Arbeit da, um unsere Angestellten regulär zu beschäftigen.“ Werden aber plötzlich Überstunden während der Kurzarbeit eingelegt, stellt das einen Widerspruch dar, denn scheinbar ist doch genügend Arbeit vorhanden.

Hier begeben sich Arbeitnehmer wie Arbeitgeber auf gefährliches Terrain, denn wenn die Angestellten ihre normale Arbeitszeit (oder mehr) in Form von Überstunden ableisten, gleichzeitig aber für die „reduzierte Arbeitszeit“ KUG beziehen, erfüllt dies den Tatbestand von Leistungsmissbrauch. Ein Arbeitgeber, der Überstunden während der Kurzarbeit anordnet, macht sich deshalb des Betrugs schuldig. Der Arbeitnehmer wiederum leistet Beihilfe zum Betrug, wenn er sich auf die Überstunden einlässt. Beiden drohen Strafverfahren, welche in hohen Geldstrafen oder sogar mehrjährigen Freiheitsstrafen enden können.

 

This is very interesting. Alongside that, we are also free to take up part-time jobs it seems, as long as we inform our employer, and the extra income would be deduced from the compensation for Kurzarbeit. We were actually told we could not take any extra work. This was obviously false. The more I read into this, the more I believe our company is acting in bad faith.

 

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6 hours ago, zeox said:

 

Found this pearl here:
 

 

This is very interesting. Alongside that, we are also free to take up part-time jobs it seems, as long as we inform our employer, and the extra income would be deduced from the compensation for Kurzarbeit. We were actually told we could not take any extra work. This was obviously false. The more I read into this, the more I believe our company is acting in bad faith.

 

At Aldi Süd today there were flyers to take with you about how they are looking for employees and stating go to their website to find out more:  https://karriere.aldi-sued.de/anpacken

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So if I am 0% Kurzarbeit technically I can work for another company 8 hours?

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I am due to start a new job in a few weeks and have signed the employment contract. With the current situation, this has become complicated to say the least.  The company is in the process of putting its employees under Kurzarbeit. They would still like me to join, but basically don't have the money.

Is it possible for me to join and immediately be part of the Kurzarbeit? My contract was signed before any decisions related to this were made. Does the company still have to honour the contract even thought it has not started?

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They could try applying for it and see what happens.  Some contracts come with a clause that you can not end the contract before it starts.

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On 23/3/2020 18:13:12, bbogdanmircea said:

KUG_Calculator.png.64a4c0c7c84c53015228c

This really seems to help for the calculation, but the question how much is the Ist-Entgellt for KUG 0%, is it 0?

 

Hi,

 

here someone with "freiwillige versicherung". There are 3 issuance types:

* Obligatory (public), when incomes < 5.000 / month

* Voluntary (public), when incomes > 5.000 / month, but you decide to stay on the "public system"

* Private, when incomes > 5.000 / month

 

When voluntary, you are supposed to pay your contributions directly to your KK. Anyway, if your company is nice, they can do it for you.

 

Regarding KA, I think it is not an issue. You know, 60% from difference between regular nett and reduction. However, your employer has to continue paying their contributions (except AV). The tax basis is reduced on 80% from difference between regular and reduction. So, if reduction is 100%, the company shouldn't pay any contribution, as they are not paying you (sounds logic, right?). Anyway, you are not supposed to pay twice. This link explains it better than me (in German):

 

https://www.haufe.de/personal/haufe-personal-office-platin/praxis-beispiele-kurzarbeitergeld-5-arbeitnehmer-ist-freiwillig-gesetzlich-krankenversichert-verheiratet-und-hat-ein-kind_idesk_PI42323_HI1833825.html

 

Let's think, your KA is calculated from your nett (i.e. after taxes, RV, KV, ..., etc.), and then you have to pay KV+PV again? Then, why not paying RV as well? A bit more and you have to pay to the Government xD If you had to pay your contributions, it would be fair to calculate the KA before SVs (IMHO). Don't you? If not, it is a trap.

 

Please let us know about your case :)

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So is my xls wrong for 0% KA?

All the examples are with some percent of KA around 50-60% but not with 0% where the values are extreme.

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4 hours ago, bbogdanmircea said:

So is my xls wrong for 0% KA?

All the examples are with some percent of KA around 50-60% but not with 0% where the values are extreme.

4 hours ago, bbogdanmircea said:

So is my xls wrong for 0% KA?

All the examples are with some percent of KA around 50-60% but not with 0% where the values are extreme.

On 23/3/2020 18:13:12, bbogdanmircea said:

KUG_Calculator.png.64a4c0c7c84c53015228c

This really seems to help for the calculation, but the question how much is the Ist-Entgellt for KUG 0%, is it 0?

 

 

In my opinion, "Zuzüglich des Arbeitnehmeranteilaus dem fiktiven Entgelt" doesn't apply here, as your KA is calculated taken into account RV, KV, PV and AV, right? (i mean 60% from your brutto - KV - PV - RV - AV) So you have already "paid". You shouldn't pay twice while your 7% for KV is already taken into account in your KA.

 

You can take a look to your payroll and you will find a separate part with SV-Arbeitgeberbeiträge or something like this, which doesn't influence your salary ("is a consequence of").

 

Anyway in order to calculate how much your company will pay (SV) when 0%:

 

Brutto-Soll. 5200

Istentgelt 0

Diff. 5200

Fiktives Entgelt (80%) for KA 4160

 

SV Entgelt 0 (your company is not paying you!)

SV Fiktives Entgelt 4160

SV Global Base (reduced by 80%) 4160

 

Then, as in your payroll, they (not you) have to pay x% for KV, y% for PV, z% for RV and 0% for AV. You have alraedy paid your part.

 

If your KA is calculated without KV+PV (not sure if it is possible, even for mandatory insurance), then you should pay around a 7% of 4160 to your KK as KV. But in this case your KA should be higher! as your contribution to KV was not discounted to calculate the KA.

 

Anyway, it is only my interpretation :)

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