The laws about employees and Kurzarbeit

135 posts in this topic

37 minutes ago, cybil said:

Kurzarbeiter must show up to work (unless they have a Krankenschein) whether they have anxiety about catching coronavirus or not:

https://www.arbeitsrechte.de/wie-sich-corona-auf-die-arbeit-auswirkt-anwesenheitspflicht-und-lohn/

 

 

Found this pearl here:
 

Quote

Wie ist es jedoch, wenn der Arbeitgeber während der Kurzarbeit Überstunden anordnet? Dies ist grundsätzlich unzulässig, denn indem ein Unternehmen Kurzarbeit einführt, signalisiert es: „Es ist nicht genug Arbeit da, um unsere Angestellten regulär zu beschäftigen.“ Werden aber plötzlich Überstunden während der Kurzarbeit eingelegt, stellt das einen Widerspruch dar, denn scheinbar ist doch genügend Arbeit vorhanden.

Hier begeben sich Arbeitnehmer wie Arbeitgeber auf gefährliches Terrain, denn wenn die Angestellten ihre normale Arbeitszeit (oder mehr) in Form von Überstunden ableisten, gleichzeitig aber für die „reduzierte Arbeitszeit“ KUG beziehen, erfüllt dies den Tatbestand von Leistungsmissbrauch. Ein Arbeitgeber, der Überstunden während der Kurzarbeit anordnet, macht sich deshalb des Betrugs schuldig. Der Arbeitnehmer wiederum leistet Beihilfe zum Betrug, wenn er sich auf die Überstunden einlässt. Beiden drohen Strafverfahren, welche in hohen Geldstrafen oder sogar mehrjährigen Freiheitsstrafen enden können.

 

This is very interesting. Alongside that, we are also free to take up part-time jobs it seems, as long as we inform our employer, and the extra income would be deduced from the compensation for Kurzarbeit. We were actually told we could not take any extra work. This was obviously false. The more I read into this, the more I believe our company is acting in bad faith.

 

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6 hours ago, zeox said:

 

Found this pearl here:
 

 

This is very interesting. Alongside that, we are also free to take up part-time jobs it seems, as long as we inform our employer, and the extra income would be deduced from the compensation for Kurzarbeit. We were actually told we could not take any extra work. This was obviously false. The more I read into this, the more I believe our company is acting in bad faith.

 

At Aldi Süd today there were flyers to take with you about how they are looking for employees and stating go to their website to find out more:  https://karriere.aldi-sued.de/anpacken

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So if I am 0% Kurzarbeit technically I can work for another company 8 hours?

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I am due to start a new job in a few weeks and have signed the employment contract. With the current situation, this has become complicated to say the least.  The company is in the process of putting its employees under Kurzarbeit. They would still like me to join, but basically don't have the money.

Is it possible for me to join and immediately be part of the Kurzarbeit? My contract was signed before any decisions related to this were made. Does the company still have to honour the contract even thought it has not started?

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They could try applying for it and see what happens.  Some contracts come with a clause that you can not end the contract before it starts.

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On 23/3/2020 18:13:12, bbogdanmircea said:

KUG_Calculator.png.64a4c0c7c84c53015228c

This really seems to help for the calculation, but the question how much is the Ist-Entgellt for KUG 0%, is it 0?

 

Hi,

 

here someone with "freiwillige versicherung". There are 3 issuance types:

* Obligatory (public), when incomes < 5.000 / month

* Voluntary (public), when incomes > 5.000 / month, but you decide to stay on the "public system"

* Private, when incomes > 5.000 / month

 

When voluntary, you are supposed to pay your contributions directly to your KK. Anyway, if your company is nice, they can do it for you.

 

Regarding KA, I think it is not an issue. You know, 60% from difference between regular nett and reduction. However, your employer has to continue paying their contributions (except AV). The tax basis is reduced on 80% from difference between regular and reduction. So, if reduction is 100%, the company shouldn't pay any contribution, as they are not paying you (sounds logic, right?). Anyway, you are not supposed to pay twice. This link explains it better than me (in German):

 

https://www.haufe.de/personal/haufe-personal-office-platin/praxis-beispiele-kurzarbeitergeld-5-arbeitnehmer-ist-freiwillig-gesetzlich-krankenversichert-verheiratet-und-hat-ein-kind_idesk_PI42323_HI1833825.html

 

Let's think, your KA is calculated from your nett (i.e. after taxes, RV, KV, ..., etc.), and then you have to pay KV+PV again? Then, why not paying RV as well? A bit more and you have to pay to the Government xD If you had to pay your contributions, it would be fair to calculate the KA before SVs (IMHO). Don't you? If not, it is a trap.

 

Please let us know about your case :)

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So is my xls wrong for 0% KA?

All the examples are with some percent of KA around 50-60% but not with 0% where the values are extreme.

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4 hours ago, bbogdanmircea said:

So is my xls wrong for 0% KA?

All the examples are with some percent of KA around 50-60% but not with 0% where the values are extreme.

4 hours ago, bbogdanmircea said:

So is my xls wrong for 0% KA?

All the examples are with some percent of KA around 50-60% but not with 0% where the values are extreme.

On 23/3/2020 18:13:12, bbogdanmircea said:

KUG_Calculator.png.64a4c0c7c84c53015228c

This really seems to help for the calculation, but the question how much is the Ist-Entgellt for KUG 0%, is it 0?

 

 

In my opinion, "Zuzüglich des Arbeitnehmeranteilaus dem fiktiven Entgelt" doesn't apply here, as your KA is calculated taken into account RV, KV, PV and AV, right? (i mean 60% from your brutto - KV - PV - RV - AV) So you have already "paid". You shouldn't pay twice while your 7% for KV is already taken into account in your KA.

 

You can take a look to your payroll and you will find a separate part with SV-Arbeitgeberbeiträge or something like this, which doesn't influence your salary ("is a consequence of").

 

Anyway in order to calculate how much your company will pay (SV) when 0%:

 

Brutto-Soll. 5200

Istentgelt 0

Diff. 5200

Fiktives Entgelt (80%) for KA 4160

 

SV Entgelt 0 (your company is not paying you!)

SV Fiktives Entgelt 4160

SV Global Base (reduced by 80%) 4160

 

Then, as in your payroll, they (not you) have to pay x% for KV, y% for PV, z% for RV and 0% for AV. You have alraedy paid your part.

 

If your KA is calculated without KV+PV (not sure if it is possible, even for mandatory insurance), then you should pay around a 7% of 4160 to your KK as KV. But in this case your KA should be higher! as your contribution to KV was not discounted to calculate the KA.

 

Anyway, it is only my interpretation :)

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On 24.3.2020, 19:12:48, bbogdanmircea said:

So if I am 0% Kurzarbeit technically I can work for another company 8 hours?

Yes that is possible. The governemnt said you are very welcome to look for a new job during this time  especially in the area of farming, caring for elderly people or in supermarkets.

But if you receive Kurzarbeitergeld, some of your earned money goes back to the state

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Hello everyone, 

 

Id like to enquire your advice which is greatly appreciated.

 

The  way we work with our employer is that we have minimum salary on our contract (800€) but our income is commission based and varies month to month.

Our employer originally told us that kurzarbeitergeld will be based on an average salary of last 3 months combined but now came back that it might be based on 60% of minimum salary reflected in the contract. We are still waiting for the final feedback but was wondering if anyone has insight into this situation? 

Thank you very much in advance. 

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Legally the salary to be taken into account is specifically the one for the month for which Kurzarbeit is applied for (i.e. if you're on Kurzarbeit in May and don't generate into commission then the minimum salary is applied as the base for the calculation).

 

If you're on partial Kurzarbeit (reduced hours) and do generate commission-based income then that component is only taken into account if it is regularly paid out within the month in which it is generated (i.e. e.g. annual boni or a quarterly payout does not apply).

 

§106 SGB III

 

Quote

Soll-Entgelt ist das Bruttoarbeitsentgelt, das die Arbeitnehmerin oder der Arbeitnehmer ohne den Arbeitsausfall in dem Anspruchszeitraum erzielt hätte

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So we are in kurzarbeit. We have been told that under no circumstances during kurzarbeit, we should turn on our company laptop or use our company phones.

 

Does anyone know if today is a kurzarbeit day and can we switch on our company phones?

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18 hours ago, kato said:

Legally the salary to be taken into account is specifically the one for the month for which Kurzarbeit is applied for (i.e. if you're on Kurzarbeit in May and don't generate into commission then the minimum salary is applied as the base for the calculation).

 

If you're on partial Kurzarbeit (reduced hours) and do generate commission-based income then that component is only taken into account if it is regularly paid out within the month in which it is generated (i.e. e.g. annual boni or a quarterly payout does not apply).

 

§106 SGB III

 


Thank you so much Kato for taking your time to clarify this. 

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1 hour ago, RenegadeFurther said:

Does anyone know if today is a kurzarbeit day and can we switch on our company phones?

Today is a public holiday, you shouldn't be working regardless of KA rules.

 

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2 hours ago, pappnase said:

Today is a public holiday, you shouldn't be working regardless of KA rules.

 

 

I regularly work public holidays, and get tax-free cash for it on top of the salary.

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When it comes to KA your company has said not to switch on phones .. etc as when you do it can be considered as working and will affect your hours, or the hours you've been working, regardless of which days.

I work for Lufthansa and have the same instructions, I'm not even allowed to reply to any e-mails vis the LH system.

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1 hour ago, silty1 said:

I regularly work public holidays, and get tax-free cash for it on top of the salary.

Well yes, but it's "overtime" and you can't work overtime when you are on KA.

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57 minutes ago, pappnase said:

Well yes, but it's "overtime" and you can't work overtime when you are on KA.

 

Nah, it's not overtime, if it's "tax-free" it's cash-in-hand illegal work.

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12 hours ago, kato said:

 

Nah, it's not overtime, if it's "tax-free" it's cash-in-hand illegal work.

 

Not necessarily. I work at the airport and all Züschläge are tax free, so this means the extra payments for Sundays, working after 8pm and also public holidays.

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