The laws about employees and Kurzarbeit

142 posts in this topic

 

Yes, I have asked them to leave early. And, my new employer also thought that I would be able to leave quickly. But, unfortunately my company wants me to stay the whole 3 months. I haven't discussed with them the fact that they will have to pay me my whole salary, yet. Does anyone know how that will work... I've only worked 50% in July, but they are still to pay me my full salary?? How does that work?

 

 

Spent virtually the whole of 2009 on KA and I'm pretty sure the company also gets some benefit from having its staff on KA.

The first couple of months was normal KA we would only work 3 days from 5.However then the Govt introduced "schulung" for people on KA.This basically entailed you receiving schulung at work on your KA days and for this your company then had all your mandatory contributions such as KV etc paid by the govt instead of by them.

The schulung was a joke as basically we ended up doing work under the guise of schulung while we were not getting paid full pay and the firm was getting our contributions paid for them.For example we would have production schulung which was basically doing the normal work we do but classed as schulung.What was even worse was the fact that so they could milk it even more you would do this schulung with less workers than normal so that they could do 1 schulung in the morning and 1 schulung in the afternoon thus a whole days production for probably 60% of the normal cost.

Thing is you as a worker can't really do anything about it as the company knows they have you by the balls basically.

This is when we discovered that our Betriebsrats are not really worth a wank and that IGM is pretty much subservient to our company.

There was actually nothing against the rules they were doing as we found out when an inspector from the Arbeitsamt (I think it was) turned up to check that the firm were not breaking any rules as someone had reported our company to them.They were bending them but not breaking them.

Also you may end up getting a shock if you're married with kids when you do your tax returns as some people at our firm have had to pay back hefty sums this year.

KA is good for the firms and the unemployment figure but it is not good for the workers.Yes for a couple of months it is lovely having 4 days a week off but when this runs on and on you really notice it in your pocket.

It doesn't help you at all as basically it keeps you in work for that 18 months (I think is the max) being paid a lot less than normal.Yes I know people will say well its better than unemployment which it is if you're put back in full employment after that 18 months is over but I know a lot of firms that after the KA runs out they get rid of many of their employees anyway.

Many firms actually made a better profit after being on KA than they did the year before running normally.

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Well, I gave my notice at the end of June. So techinically July is my first of three months in my notice period. But, that's what gets confusing for me. According to this website... I should get paid 100% of July. But, I just found this information out and I've only worked 50% in July. Am I still entitled to my full pay for July even if I have only worked 50%?

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Your employer is not entitled to have you working on Kurzarbeit as you do not fulfil the conditions to be registered as such. If they had you registered as on KA and collected money from the arbeitsamt for that then they broke the rules. They screwed up, you should have worked full time, and you should be paid full time, you also cannot collect KA money from the Arbeitsamt, your employer will have to pay that to you.

 

How you handle it now is up to you and your lawyer...

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Anybody know if the situation described above is still applicable (or roughly so) in April 2014?

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Now relevant in 2020 too. It will happen to my company but the BR said they have agreed with the company to protect 80% of your salary (incl. gov extras) so I dont know exactly how many hours I'm going to need to work. They also are time limiting it,hopefully back to normal after COVID-19. 

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Hello, anyone can help how to calculate contribution to medical insurance in case of Kurzarbeit and self paying the contribution directly to the Krankenkasse?

Until now I received my employer contribution together with the salary, and then payed to the TK the contribution corresponding to my brutto.

But how to calculate now?

Will the employer normally notify the Krankenkasse that they are doing Kurzarbeit?

Also from Oktober my employer already reduced the hours from 8 to 7, but TK continued to take the full amount from my account, so I guess they were not notified by my employer and now I should ask them to reimburse the difference?

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1 hour ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Hello, anyone can help how to calculate contribution to medical insurance in case of Kurzarbeit and self paying the contribution directly to the Krankenkasse?

Until now I received my employer contribution together with the salary, and then payed to the TK the contribution corresponding to my brutto.

But how to calculate now?

Will the employer normally notify the Krankenkasse that they are doing Kurzarbeit?

Also from Oktober my employer already reduced the hours from 8 to 7, but TK continued to take the full amount from my account, so I guess they were not notified by my employer and now I should ask them to reimburse the difference?

Have you called TK?

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Yes, but no clear answer from them, they basically said I still have to pay the contribution which doesn't make sense to me, as my understanding is that I will get only the netto from the ArbeitsAgentur in case of Kurzarbeit 0% and the rest of the contributions are also taken care by the ArbeitsAgentur, so basically same as Arbeitslosengeld.

But I already have given them a SEPA mandate and they are automatically take the whole contribution every month, maybe I should revoke it and wait for them to figure it out?

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Just had a conversation with TK. They still say I must pay the full contribution which is almost half the money that I will receive for Kurzarbeitgeld. This doesn't make any sense for me. Oh yes and they offered that they will not take the full amount in April, but then they will take double the amount in May.

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if you are paying them directly as an employee, you must be a freiwillig member.  I suspect you have to pay the full premium as you are still over the max premium limit even under kurzarbeit.

 

When I say "over the limit" - kk fees max out at a certain income (no idea what it is now) such that premiums don't increase based on salary above that.  You'd have to go under that limit to see a reduction in your premium.

 

that is my best guess at least.

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Hello lisa13 and thanks for the answer, I don't have such a big income, only that this is the procedure with my employer, he pays me his part of the KV and PV and they I pay the full amount.

But this is a percent of the Brutto income.

Shouldn't this percent get proportionally lower or even to zero, as I am not working anymore in case of Kurzarbeit, and then the KV should receive the money from the ArbeitsAgentur?

My understanding is that Kurzarbeit 0% is same as Arbeitslosengeld just that you are not looking to work and waiting for your employer to either restart work or fire everybody, but the contributions are taken care by the state through the ArbeitsAgentur so that the company doesn't fail.

Let's say my income was around 5k Brutto, then I payed around 800 Euro for the contribution s monthly to the TK, now with the Kurzarbeit 0% I will receive around 60% of the netto, which is maybe 1600 euro, but I need to pay still 800 euro to the TK?

How does that make any sense?

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then something is very wrong.  If you are under the limit and pflichtversichert your employer is required to pay the premiums themselves.

 

https://www.tk.de/techniker/leistungen-und-mitgliedschaft/informationen-versicherte/veraenderung-berufliche-situation/versichert-als-arbeitnehmer/beitraege-fuer-beschaeftigte/beitragszahlung-beitragsabfuehrung-2005516

 

eta:  what I understood from what you said above, your hours were reduced from 8 to 7 per day.  If you have essentially been furloughed (still technically employed but down to 0 working hours for now) you should probably talk to the arbeitsamt as no, this doesn't sound right either.

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Unfortunately this is the case, and both TK and the Finanzamt didn't seem to have had any problem that I payed my contributions.

 

Weitere Details

Ist das nicht der Fall, zahlen freiwillig versicherte Beschäftigte ihren Beitrag direkt an die TK. Den Arbeitgeberanteil erhalten sie dafür als Zuschuss von ihrem Arbeitgeber ausgezahlt.

 

Although I am not sure, I have the vague impression that I am the only employee in my salary range that is selbstbezahler.

Why I don't really know, probably because my German is not perfect, and they felt that they can get away with it no problem.

The question is what I can do at this moment, and why is TK saying that I must pay the full amount?

Should I call the ArbeitsAgentur and ask if they received any notice that my company has asked for KUG?

 

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You are not Freiwillig versicherte. Your employer getting you to pay his and yours has left you in a crap place. He needs to keep paying your contribution to you, since he put you in this position. Is it even legal?

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6 minutes ago, kiplette said:

You are not Freiwillig versicherte. Your employer getting you to pay his and yours has left you in a crap place. He needs to keep paying your contribution to you, since he put you in this position. Is it even legal?

I*ve never heard of someone earning a normal wage in full time employment having their employer pay them and they then pass on that contribution to the KK.

 

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Maybe I will add this on this thread.

 

Is it true that every freelancer will be given 15K from the German Government stimulus package?

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24 minutes ago, kiplette said:

You are not Freiwillig versicherte.

 

How do you know that? The OP never disclosed how much he actually earns.

 

17 minutes ago, Keleth said:

I*ve never heard of someone earning a normal wage in full time employment having their employer pay them and they then pass on that contribution to the KK.

 

 

I actually know people who opted for public health insurance despite earning enough to go private and who are required to forward both their own and their employer's contributions to the Kasse. You might want to google Beitragsbemessungsgrenze and freiwillige Versicherung

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I am earning very close to the range I mentioned in the example, between 5k and 6k brutto per Month.

This would explain why they are doing now this game of sending me to go to TK.

What would be the normal way that things should go in my case, my understanding is that there is no difference between:

-company gives you their amount C + your amount E, you pay to TK C+E

-company takes from you amount E, company pays to TK C+E

So in both cases TK takes C+E, only in first case company does less work?

 

But how should this work in case of KUG 0% when I receive only 60% of my netto? My understanding is that for a normal employee the company gets this money from Arbeitsagentur, then pays this to the employee and TK then gets payed separately by the Arbeitsagentur?

So in my case I should still get the 60% and then TK also needs to get payed separately by the Arbeitsagentur?

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1 hour ago, bbogdanmircea said:

I don't have such a big income, only that this is the procedure with my employer,

 

19 minutes ago, engelchen said:

The OP never disclosed how much he actually earns.

 

 

I assumed he actually meant that, but maybe not, as things turn out. If he is slightly under the threshold, then is it legal for his employer to get him to forward the sum like the Freiwillige sometimes do?

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