Demonstration against the Stadtschloss in Berlin

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Why I don't address "these facts"? Because they're nonsense. Why will the people of Berlin be paying for the palace's upkeep? It will be a federal building. Where is this private firm that will "reap the profits"? The builders? Are you upset that they'll be private companies? Should we resurrect the VEBs who built the Palast der Republik for you? But watch out, you'll have to import Swedish steel and labor again, because your quality won't be up to snuff.

 

There's no telling what will happen to the old buildings - whether they will eventually be refurbished, sold to private individuals, or demolished. But would you rather spend €200 million of Berlin's money renovating the old buildings than have a €500 million palace given to you?

 

In the last part of your post, you seem to be trying to equate reconstruction of the palace with the banking crisis, which is a bit like comparing your ass to a hole in the ground. Can you tell the two apart?

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Are they the real palaces or the Legoland version of Prussian history that is planned for Berlin which it can't afford to maintain?

They are rebuilding palaces in Potsdam too.

 

http://www.baunetz.de/meldungen/Meldungen-Kulka_baut_Potsdamer_Stadtschloss_816663.html

 

http://www.dw-world.org/dw/article/0,,2301379,00.html

 

Berlin and Potsdam aren't going to stand still just because you can't deal with it.

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In the last part of your post, you seem to be trying to equate reconstruction of the palace with the banking crisis, which is a bit like comparing your ass to a hole in the ground. Can you tell the two apart?

I will on my part try to ignore your ignorance and abuse but: The money is coming out of my, 'arse', no matter if it is federal or from Berlin taxes, I'm paying for nonsense in a country into a hole in the ground for a fake Palace that we don't need. Considering the deficit will be 3.7 percent of gross domestic product in 2009 and Berlin is 90 billion in dept I can't see any justification in your argument. Perhaps the new govt. should just print money and spend it on decadence and decorations. Brilliant plan. I think I recall where that got us.

 

Sorry but once again you ignore what Berlin really needs which has nothing to do with your visual wants, historical lag or willful need to throw money out the window... again.

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What some expat thinks Berlin 'needs' isn't relevant. Nor are patronising references to 'Legoland fake palaces' and the like. The proposal was pushed through by active citizens (i.e. Verein) over the last 15 years against a lot of political apathy, and was finally ratified by a democratic vote (2:1) in the Bundestag. During all this time a counter-movement which had genuine popular support could have stopped it in its tracks. None was forthcoming. Even Wowi publicly pleaded with Merkel at the Neues Museum opening to confirm the new governments support for the project. Surely it's not too much to ask to accept this in good grace as legitimate and see how it turns out?

 

There is a sulfurous whiff of cultural elitism about all this. It runs: the people have chosen 'reactionary' architectural 'Kulissen', therefore the authorities should step in and stop this dangerous trend. This is the position avowed by 'critical leftists'. Those who do not adopt this position are the 'children of Thatcher and Reagan' and probably 'want the Kaiser back'.

 

Meanwhile, 500 million is dwarfed by the massive bailout of banks which are insolvent and supposedly 'too big to fail'. What do you do about that? Do you even understand the implications of the state identifying itself in extremis with the interest of bankers? The money given out so far could pay for 200 Stadtschlösser. Yet, no protests, no counter-proposals, not even the suggestion that citizens transfer their business to the Volksbanken!

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The money given out so far could pay for 200 Stadtschlösser. Yet, no protests, no counter-proposals, not even the suggestion that citizens transfer their business to the Volksbanken!

 

Perhaps they don't have enough money left to pay for a bouncy castle?

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Well said rabtazers..

 

I would probably prefer to see it left just a big green open space/park.. but yeah, I don't expect anybody to care about what I would prefer..

 

But I've slowly been learning about how Germany works.. 500 million Euros is a lot of dough, but it's also a lot of jobs.. Money from one pocket to the other..

 

Like this dumbaxx tunnel they're building in Leipzig... Now THAT is a monumental waste of money..

 

What I don't like in the whole palace story in Berlin is the lefty political angle - uproar against tearing down the Palace de Republic monstronsity, and now criticism of building something traditional...

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That's because you still have members of the old SED cadre in government, HerrDinksbumps (but hopefully not beyond 2011).

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Cheers HerrDinksbumps. Personally I would have preferred to see at least the Spreeside of the PdR integrated into the Schloss in some way, so I am by no means uncritical of the overall process.

 

However, as a footnote, given the reasonable discussion about money, I thought I'd note:

 

Total cost of bank/HRE bailout for Deutschland is 480 billion (and counting).

Total cost of Stadtschloss (taxpayer) is 550 million or so.

There are about 40 million taxpayers (private incomes).

 

So,

 

Cost of Stadtschloss per person is: €14

 

Cost of bailout per person is: €12,000

 

The end effect of the Stadtschloss rebuilding is a massive new cultural centre in the middle of Berlin, with many high skilled jobs being created over a period of several years in an economically depressed city. Theatrically it will be at the minimum interesting.

 

The end effect of these bailouts...?

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The end effect of these bailouts...?

 

Keeping the global banking system - and thus the global economy - from collapsing? Don't get me wrong - I'd like to hang the people responsible from the highest tree (and even more so since they've resumed their business-as-usual attitude) - but I don't see any reasonable alternative to the bailout once the doo-doo actually hit the fan.

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I see the Exberliner is organising a whole Save Berlin 09 festival aimed at stopping the Schloss.

 

Time to cancel my subscription I think.

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Would that not make you appear a little petty and ironic becoming an Ex Ex Berliner?

I've always thought that magazine was plain wrong due to it's title and of course... internship policy. :blink:

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I read an article a few days ago where they mentioned that Berlin City was going to have to pay 38 million as their share of the costs to start with. The Berlin Govt. are supposed to also find the money if the glass dome is to sit on top and the classic Palace facade is to be a feature which could put another 100 million on the price tag. Also note there has been an investigation into certain deals based around it which of course is to be expected with the current regime.

 

When the Berlin Govt. is unable to fund this it appears it will just be a rather large building filling a space with just as much cultural, historical and artistic relevance as any other neubau in the city.

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Do you have problems reading German?

 

The glass dome is a cost saving measure, which would be replaced with the historical one if and when more funding is secured. This is in order to fulfill the main term of the contract, which is that the three facades and the Schlüterhof are reconstructed.

 

As far as I know the 550 million is inclusive of the Baroque elements, which as you say are around 80-100 million. These are supposed to be funded by private donations, but whether the Bundesregierung will have to step in or not is an open question - time will tell.

 

http://www.morgenpost.de/kultur/berlin-kultur/article1199132/Stella-haelt-Stadtschloss-Kuppel-fuer-moeglich.html

 

The Spree side is pretty ugly though. I really think the PdR looked better, as would have Kolhoffs entry, or even a simplified reconstruction of the Renaissance elements.

 

Finally, don't forget the reconstruction of the Bauakademie next door...

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Do you have problems reading German?

Oh I can read it but understanding the mentality of senseless people throwing invisible money out imaginary windows and into their mates pockets for some nonsense until 2016 sort of escapes me.

 

It's perhaps the fashion in which the Berlin Morgan Post reports the saga or that you seem obsessed with some nonsense construction but not the lack of Kitas which even 30 million could go a long way to making a difference in the city never mind fixing up a few youth clubs and the likes.

 

Then again the Tagesspiegel sort of clears things up on this one just so you have the info.

 

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/Stadtschloss-Franco-Stella-Humboldt-Forum-Mitte;art772,2933653

 

I thought you said we were getting it all for free and now it's costing 38 million and that's just the start of it. I'm not sure what line of sales you are in. Did you lose your job in MFI or did you do calculations for the Euro Fighter?

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Well, if you're concerned about the Kitas, you should have noticed by now that the Senate has recently agreed to spend 223 million more (2010-2012) than envisaged due to the results of the Volksentscheidung on the issue. This is what happens in a democratic society, where people organise around an issue - as was the case with the Stadtschloss. If you feel strongly about the issue, nothing is stopping you from collecting the signatures and running a Volksbegehren process yourself.

 

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/Landespolitik-Kita-Erzieherinnen-Klaus-Wowereit;art124,2934193

 

http://www.volksentscheid.de/news/#102

 

The ones who are throwing invisible money into their mates pockets would be the bankers.

 

PS: Who is Morgan Post?

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due to the results of the Volksentscheidung on the issue. This is what happens in a democratic society

Aye like Tempelhof??? The people who didn't vote won the decision where as the people who did lost even though they had the majority. That was rather odd don't you think?

 

As for budget plans for the future of Kitas well the Gods of the budget laugh at our plans for tomorrow when the revenues aren't there in a downturn and hard decisions will have to be made a few years down the line.

 

Once again you did say the fake Stadtschloss was a gift to Berlin. It appears not to be the case unless when someone you know comes round with a present and asks you to pay a lump to receive it and you are having problems paying your own rent and food 70 billion in debt.

 

PS. I think Morgan Post is the hangover from tomorrow that you get tonight and the day after for years to come.

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Aye like Tempelhof??? The people who didn't vote won the decision where as the people who did lost even though they had the majority. That was rather odd don't you think?

 

Not really. How can a referendum be said to be representative if only a small proportion of the population votes? Would you accept as legitimate a government where only 22% of the population voted? The reality is most people just weren't that bothered with 'saving' Tempelhof - people seem to prefer a huge park over constant air and noise pollution in the middle of the city. The minimum percentage of 25% of voters isn't that hard to reach - just look at the Pro-Reli campaign (29%).

 

I won't contribute further to a pointless argument, other than to point out the 32 million is 5.8% of the total cost. So 94% of the cost is being borne by the federal government/private donations.

 

So it would be equivalent to buying a car for €100 that is worth €2000 - sounds like a pretty good deal, for Berlin anyway (no doubt some Bavarian farmers would disagree).

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