What constitutes Holocaust denial?

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But don't morals vary form person to person, culture to culture?

 

If it is morally ok to lie in certain circumstances and at certain time but not others based on a given culture, then whole moral argument falls down as it is only valid for the person speaking.

 

This is why modern laws are somewhat based yet distanced from our moral compass.

 

 

Everyone decides on his or her own morals, yes. It is always a personal decision that can of course be influenced by others. And you can (and often will) be punished for 'immoral' decisions, too (not by the state but by the community you live in, i.e. people will not like you anymore).

It's the same with laws. The only difference is that the state will punish you. But you still decide which laws to follow on a personal level.

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But don't morals vary form person to person, culture to culture?

 

If it is morally ok to lie in certain circumstances and at certain time but not others based on a given culture, then whole moral argument falls down as it is only valid for the person speaking.

 

This is why modern laws are somewhat based yet distanced from our moral compass.

 

 

The are morals based on culture, for example the 10 Commandments.

 

But Kant would deny that his morals are based on culture. Please read the cateogrial imperative I wrote in some posts before.

If you lie this would mean everybody can lie.

If you kill someone -> everybody is allowed to kill people

etc.

 

You have to act as you expect others to act. (Actually Kant would say "think" he starts even "earlier")

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There is no "sometimes". If you say it´s morally right to lie once, then it is always right. Who should draw the border you, me, somebody else???

 

The catagorical imperative is "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law"

 

There is no such thing as a universal moral law, universal laws are the place of science.

 

 

Kant´s approach is the first work on moral which does not say "Do this, don´t do that" but it puts YOU resp. your mind in the centre of moral.

 

You can come up with certain moral rules with Kantian Deontology that end up being no better than some simple inflexible commands from a diety.

 

 

You still have to option to say nothing or tell the truth in a manner the other one does not believe you.

 

 

The following 2 are true under the CI

a) I have a duty to tell the truth

B) I have a duty to preserve life

 

I am hiding Jews under my floorboard, I am asked if I am hiding jews:

 

My options are:

1) say yes, perserving a but violating b

2) saying no, violating a but preserving b

3) saying nothing, preserving a but likely giving me away and violating b

 

The CI is useless as it is too inflexible to deal with these situations. It is useless.

 

Kant even states in On a Supposed Right to Tell Lies from Benevolent Motives that in a similar (pre-nazi obviously) scenario that it would be immoral to lie in this situation even though it preserves right.

 

Theoretical nonsense useless in real world moral choices.

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The CI is useless as it is too inflexible to deal with these situations. It is useless.

 

 

Come up with a moral that is more general/flexible than Kant´s. I do not know a single one. He still has the most general approach.

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It isn't flexible at all, it has no mechanism to resolve dispute between conflicting duties and inevitably places you in a position to violate some duty formulated by the CI. Deontological ethics in general are rubbish, but Kant's is useless.

 

Kierkegaard had a good comment too:

 

 

Kant was of the opinion that man is his own law (autonomy) - that is, he binds himself under the law which he himself gives himself. Actually, in a profounder sense, this is how lawlessness or experimentation are established. This is not being rigorously earnest any more than Sancho Panza's self-administered blows to his own bottom were vigorous. ... Now if a man is never even once willing in his lifetime to act so decisively that [a lawgiver] can get hold of him, well, then it happens, then the man is allowed to live on in self-complacent illusion and make-believe and experimentation, but this also means: utterly without grace.

 

A more general/flexible moral system then Kantian deontology? Utilitarianism.

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There are several systems, act vs rule utilitariansim. I prefer negative utilitarianism which is defined as actions are moral which minimize suffering rather than maximizing pleasure.

 

Even under pleasure utility though, under a social system harming others is punished by law (or social consequeneces) which will, in turn, destroy your liberty and diminish your net happiness in the end as well as your victim. Thus a rational actor would not choose that action.

 

An irrational actor action's are irrelevant as they follow no moral system. They cause problems with other systems to, a particularly crazy masochist could twist the Catagorical Imperative to justify some nasty acts (more nasty than refusing to lie to save a life, that is).

 

(On that note I'm going home... I've had plenty of Kant discussions end up talking about Nazis, but not many Nazi discussions ending up regarding Kant :) )

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Actually it was ended by Public Proclomation 21, not by the supreme court. They did know Ex Parte Endo was coming so they probably closed the camps ahead of time, but it was by executive order not by SC ruling that camps closed.

 

Ironically Ex Parte Endo was given down on the same day as the Korematsu decision, which said it was still okay to exclude Japenese people from the west coast. (And technically this could still be used today against other minorities as it has never been overturned).

 

 

Yeah Ex Parte Endo was the very next day. PP21 was just the execs and military reading the writing on the wall and saving face <_<

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Delicious.

 

As to whether or not it is human nature to hate each other: it is irrelevant. The logical ends to your line of reasoning of, "Man is inherently self serving, so why fight it?" is that the USA should A-Bomb destroy every non-profitable trading partner and threaten the rest with likewise treatment. Hardly a scenario we should aspire to or be complacent towards.

 

I am still waiting on how you would feel about me and my kind coming after you and your kind. Would you still wax Nihilistic?

No, you would not. When you and your kind are the persecuted, you cry foul:"

 

 

I have nowhere said we should nuke anybody. I should've known this might be over some heads..

 

What I have tried to say is that there are pressures in the world - the real world we live in (and that lives through us..), that will lead to these horrible consequences.. It's practically inevitable. And IMO we are leading ourselves* precisely in that direction - in all this dumb thinking that everybody is equal, everybody can thrive(and have a house, and a car, and eat meat and drink milk, and use gas and steel and oil and wood and Amazon land for farming, and fresh drinking water...), we are deluding ourselves, and meanwhile reality will creep up on us - as it did in the first half of the 20th century, and basically blow up in our faces.. Conflict is utterly intrinsic to existence, and completely unavoidable. The Judeo-Christian ethic has led us down this road on willed blindness, and inadvertantly will lead to further cataclysms..

 

* Actually, it would be more accurate to say that the problem is precisely that we are not leading ourselves anywhere. We take this laissez-faire approach to our own species/destiny/future/fate. And why? Because to do anything else would conjure up images of the Holocaust, basically..(big step, I know.., but there's a link..) That's right.. IMO the Nazis were the first real attempt by a society to truly overcome the Judeo-Christian ethic, and to aspire to something higher(whatever you think about their ideals.. That's not what I'm talking about..) They envisaged a 1,000 year future. We don't look past next month.. I am NOT saying all the blond-haired, blue-eyed, Aryan anti-semitic stuff was TRUE..(though if it comes to a once-and-for-all clash of civilizations, I obviously want my western, Euro-centric side to come out on top...) That was all more or less contingent window-dressing compared to the deeper point I'm trying to make. Which is basically that because of our warped obsession with the Holocaust, we are not willing to take our fate in our hands, and make the hard decisions to ensure our survival - even if that only means some of us.. Instead, we rely on "faith" (i.e. admitted ignorance) in what?? - human goodwill, democracy, free markets, and whatever??.. Ha.. But as I said, meanwhile reality is seething beneath everything, and will blow up eventually. ("Faith" in free markets is precisely what led us to where we are now economically and financially...) It always does. If you doubt it, you know nothing of history or human nature..(to repeat yet again..)

 

I know all this sounds crazy and extreme. I am however no neo-Nazi. This is not about the NPD. But I mean, back to the bigger point I'm trying to make... Brush up on those issues facing us I mentioned before - global warming, a MASSIVE financial crisis we're currently "solving" by printing money out of thin air.., overpopulation, dimishing resources - VERY VERY IMPORTANT resources I might add.. - some parts of Europe will be very cold without natural gas.. (parts of China too ha ha...), global deforestation, overfishing, nuclear proliferation, and on down the list.. If these issues, which yes have been around for a while.., are growing in severity and at the same exponential rate as human overpopulation, well, we'll see what happens..

 

Read an interesting article the other day about people being worried that gas prices haven't gone down further - here in the midst of the worst economic crisis since - the Great Depression... Yeah, we don't all have huge growth figures, but we're still consuming, and there are seven billion of us.

 

And growing..

 

Fast..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You, like all bullies, are a hypocrite. When you are talking about subjecting others to your will, there are perfectly rational reasons for doing so. But when the tables turn, you cry, "Foul!"

 

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Delicious.

 

As to whether or not it is human nature to hate each other: it is irrelevant. The logical ends to your line of reasoning of, "Man is inherently self serving, so why fight it?" is that the USA should A-Bomb destroy every non-profitable trading partner and threaten the rest with likewise treatment. Hardly a scenario we should aspire to or be complacent towards.

 

I am still waiting on how you would feel about me and my kind coming after you and your kind. Would you still wax Nihilistic?

No, you would not. When you and your kind are the persecuted, you cry foul:

 

 

I have nowhere said we should nuke anybody. I should've known this might be over some heads..

 

What I have tried to say is that there are pressures in the world - the real world we live in (and that lives through us..), that will lead to these horrible consequences.. It's practically inevitable. And IMO we are leading ourselves* precisely in that direction - in all this dumb thinking that everybody is equal, everybody can thrive(and have a house, and a car, and eat meat and drink milk, and use gas and steel and oil and wood and Amazon land for farming, and clean drinking water....), we are deluding ourselves, and meanwhile reality will creep up on us - as it did in the first half of the 20th century, and basically blow up in our faces.. Conflict is utterly intrinsic to existence, and completely unavoidable. The Judeo-Christian ethic has led us down this road on willed blindness, and inadvertantly will lead to further cataclysms..

 

* Actually, it would be more accurate to say that the problem is precisely that we are not leading ourselves anywhere. We take this laissez-faire approach to our own species/destiny/future/fate. And why? Because to do anything else would conjure up images of the Holocaust, basically..(big step, I know.., but there's a link..) That's right.. IMO the Nazis were the first real attempt by a society to truly overcome the Judeo-Christian ethic, and to aspire to something higher(whatever you think about their ideals.. That's not what I'm talking about..) They envisaged a 1,000 year future. We don't look past next month.. I am NOT saying all the blond-haired, blue-eyed, Aryan anti-semitic stuff was TRUE..(though if it comes to a once-and-for-all clash of civilizations, I obviously want my western, Euro-centric side to come out on top...) That was all more or less contingent window-dressing compared to the deeper point I'm trying to make. Which is basically that because of our warped obsession with the Holocaust, we are not willing to take our fate in our hands, and make the hard decisions to ensure our survival - even if that only means some of us.. Instead, we rely on "faith" (i.e. admitted ignorance) in what?? - human goodwill, democracy, free markets, and whatever??.. Ha.. But as I said, meanwhile reality is seething beneath everything, and will blow up eventually. ("Faith" in free markets is precisely what led us to where we are now economically and financially...) It always does. If you doubt it, you know nothing of history or human nature..(to repeat yet again..)

 

I know all this sounds crazy and extreme. I am however no neo-Nazi. This is not about the NPD. But I mean, back to the bigger point I'm trying to make... Brush up on those issues facing us I mentioned before - global warming, a MASSIVE financial crisis we're currently "solving" by printing money out of thin air.., overpopulation, dimishing resources - VERY VERY IMPORTANT resources I might add.. - some parts of Europe will be very cold without natural gas.. (parts of China too ha ha...), global deforestation, overfishing, nuclear proliferation, and on down the list.. If these issues, which yes have been around for a while.., are growing in severity and at the same exponential rate as human overpopulation, well, we'll see what happens..

 

Read an interesting article the other day about people being worried that gas prices haven't gone down further - here in the midst of the worst economic crisis since - the Great Depression... Yeah, we don't all have huge growth figures, but we're still consuming, and there are seven billion of us.

 

And growing..

 

Fast..

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Well there is no doubt this does... Iranian president at it again

 

So the leader of a country based of Muslim values , i.e. the existence of a God , is harping on again about the holocaust being unprovable and lies. That thing being very provable and very well documented.

 

More hate mongering and playing to the 'home' crowd.

 

If he had the sense to just say that the holocaust was one of the great atrocities of all time and he's sorry for what happened to other human beings but it didn't necessitate the creation of a new state he might garner some degree of respect. As it stands he's just managed to further isolate Iran when they did seem to be slowly moving in the right direction.

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back when my dad was in Germany, in the 70s, he found that people were still very sensitive about the entire thing. the one time he tried to talk about it to his landlord (a very nice, friendly small-town baker), he was made to feel as if he had inadvertently poked a raw wound, or something. the lady of the house apparently left the table in tears. of course, my poor dad felt like a right royal so-and-so!

probably the best approach is to not shove stuff down someone's throat. however, the sheer HORROR, the NIGHTMARE, should never be forgotten. especially not now, when violence is on the rise again, and we need to be vigilant.

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Herr DB: You say you are no Neo-Nazi, but you appear to be as paranoid and insecure as those who sympathise with the NPD and its policies. Cheer up old chap, it isn't as bad as all that. Reports of the end of the world have been somewhat exaggerated before, you know.

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please tell me what else is it not allowed to deny?

 

for example can i go tot jail for denial of Elvis Presley death?

 

Can i deny the few hundred years of British colonialism?

 

just to know ...what on earth can we deny or not

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A couple of years ago I went to a meeting in Berlin where Mohammed Larijani was an invited speaker. He is the brother of former Iranian nuclear weapons negotiator Ali Larijani and is pretty close to the powers that be in Iran. When an Israeli journalist tried to put him on the spot about the big H he replied 'in the West you can deny God, but you cannot deny the holocaust...' He didn't deny it himself, by the way!

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Larijani was a bit of a comedian. He's a Professor of mathematics, and told a story about one of the Mullahs asking him how he compares his two professions. He reckoned maths was like a good wife, stable and always there. Politics, on the other hand, was like an irresistible mistress who can get you into trouble...

 

On his point about denial, I guess he knows it isn't illegal to deny the holocaust in most Western countries... but I can't think of too many where you can go around idly questioning the magic 6 million number in public (ie. the media gets hold of your musings) without getting some kind of official rebuke. Atheists are definitely not ostracised to the same extent as holocaust deniers! (Although climate change deniers come close :blink:)

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Larijani was a bit of a comedian. He's a Professor of mathematics, and told a story about one of the Mullahs asking him how he compares his two professions. He reckoned maths was like a good wife, stable and always there. Politics, on the other hand, was like an irresistible mistress who can get you into trouble...

 

On his point about denial, I guess he knows it isn't illegal to deny the holocaust in most Western countries... but I can't think of too many where you can go around idly questioning the magic 6 million number in public (ie. the media gets hold of your musings) without getting some kind of official rebuke. Atheists are definitely not ostracised to the same extent as holocaust deniers! (Although climate change deniers come close blink.gif)

 

Still I think I would rather be slated by the press for saying it wasn't 6 million than stoned in the street for saying Mohammed was a paedo.

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'in the West you can deny God, but you cannot deny the holocaust...' He didn't deny it himself, by the way!

 

He does have a good point. You should be able to deny either in a free world. You should be held up as the fool you clearly are for denying the holocaust though.

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Pas - just so there is no misunderstanding, I'm not denying anything! Indeed it is foolish to deny the holocaust, especially if you live in Germany. In any case it isn't that the historical fact of the holocaust is in doubt, even for the Iranians... the sensitivity of the issue is a useful political tool for some people. Mr. Ahmedinejad, for all his sins, is very adept at attracting Western media attention!

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