What constitutes Holocaust denial?

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Hollywood has always liked bashing the same old enemies of the state. Be they the old 'nazis' or 'commies' the very old 'cowboys and injuns' or the new 'muslim terrorists'. The difference is the nazis they seem to have got hold of again. I can't remember as many WWII films from the 70's or 80's as there are now. Maybe Schindler's List kick started them?

 

It's all well and good talking about the USSR, but the other allies were not exactly angels what with the firebombing and the nukes (not to mention their previous genocides). In order to win a war you surely have to be tougher and more ruthless/brutal than your enemies. I guess that has been discussed to death on other threads though.

 

The holocaust and all the WWII and WWI dead are something we should all never forget but we should also remember similar stories (be they on a greater or smaller scale) from recent and ancient history. I recentley read that on July 1st 1916 the UK lost 19,500 men. In one day. I assume the Germans also lost many that same day. So senseless. We have also visited the killing fields and tourture jail in Phnom Penh - another story we would do well to remember.

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Yesterday in Munich I was touting for some business - I hoped to maybe give a history tour to some tourists.

 

A German bloke comes up and asks about the tour. I reply "Well it's a bit of ancient archaeology, a lot of Medieval stuff and we finish in the 20th century".

 

His reply, in perfect English but with a face like thunder - "You should go back to London or America and do a tour on your crimes against people like the Indians....why do you people come here and just concentrate on the crimes of the National Socialist regime"

With that he about turned and stomped off, not wanting to argue his case.

 

Jesus, I didn't know that people like Henry the Lion, Graf von Tilly and Kaiser Bill were dirty Nazi swine.

 

I am of the opinion that not talking about the NS regime (what sticks in my craw is that I never even mentioned it - it was a general history tour I was selling) is the same as denying the camps and all that that entails. What does everybody else think?

 

I have had a few punters who have denied certain facts but they were from other parts of the world - not saying where from - and I have had to put them straight. I have also had a few Germans - not enough to be vets but old enough generally to have been in the HJ - telling me that I should stop telling lies. It is starting to p me off :angry:

 

Well, new generation of germans don't need to feel guilty cause of the holocast.Holuacast is dead wrong but he is probelary sick and tired of visitors coming to germany to talk about germany's holocast.

It's the exact thing on how Americans and British people get told every day on the bad crimes which the two nations committed: America kiddnapping and inslaves of Africans and briton invasion of the comomwealth nations.(Americans & British persons should not have to deal with the bad crime past either)

I bet you Americans and brits get sick of this being shoved in you're faces,this is how that german man is feels when the holocast is brought up by visitors,I think the three nationalites,Germans,British and Americans should respect each other more and not shove each others bad past crimes in each others faces,this goes for germans and british and Americans! MMMM,learn to love each other.

 

As for german dening the holocast,he is not actually dening it,he'd rather just forget it.

german man qoute:"Why you people come here,and just concentrate on the national socialist regime crimes" he's actually admitted that the holocast did happend during ww2.

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@joe - I don't see why modern Germany should accept any responsibility for what happened over 60 years ago. I don't see why anyone should. It was over 60 years ago - no one under the age of 70 was in much condition to fight.

 

I can understand why some people would get pissed off that this seems to be the only topic that comes up when talking abut Germany. On the other hand, it is a rather important topic.

 

However a lot of poeple died in ww2 (I thin Russia lost about 12 million, Germany maybe 5 million).

 

Add in ww1 and it just gets higher.

 

When you add all the deaths together, regardless of how, you have a f**king shit load of dead people. The 20th century was a dangerous place to live in - however so were most of them.

 

The holocaust happened but it was a long time ago. All we have to do is try to make sure that kind of shit doesn't happen again. Given what has happened in parts of Africa, maybe eastern Europe we may have already failed.

 

Does Israel lend any help to countries that have gone through interracial violence (Africa) or ethnic cleansing (eastern Europe)? If not then they are just concerned with what happened to Jews in the last century.

 

Then again, most people are guilty if only being interested in what has happened the them/their home folk.

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@joe - I don't see why modern Germany should accept any responsibility for what happened over 60 years ago. I don't see why anyone should. It was over 60 years ago - no one under the age of 70 was in much condition to fight.

 

Does Israel lend any help to countries that have gone through interracial violence (Africa) or ethnic cleansing (eastern Europe)? If not then they are just concerned with what happened to Jews in the last century.

 

Then again, most people are guilty if only being interested in what has happened the them/their home folk.

 

 

The reason why people should remember the Holocaust is explained by the motto used by those who are teaching about the Holocaust. The motto is "never again".

Those who are teaching about the Holocaust are teaching about it because they do not want any nation to suffer the same the Jews have suffered.

Steven Spielberg has a foundation which helps people in Africa and Eastern Europe who have gone through interracial violence and genocide.

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The reason why people should remember the Holocaust is explained by the motto used by those who are teaching about the Holocaust. The motto is "never again".

 

 

Unfortunately, this doesn't work any better than Nancy's "Just Say No (to drugs)" motto.

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Unfortunately, this doesn't work any better than Nancy's "Just Say No (to drugs)" motto.

 

Well at least they don't use scrambled eggs as an example like Nancy does.

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@LB - I agree that it should be remembered, however no one around today that was not involved should or should be made to feel responsible.

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Well at least they don't use scrambled eggs as an example like Nancy does.

 

 

The best part of the 'this is your brain' campaign was that the Partnership for a *Drug-Free America took millions in donations from alcohol, tobacco, and pharmacuetical industries.

 

* Only applicable to drugs without huge powerfull lobbying committees using the government to enforce their monopoly

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Yesterday in Munich I was touting for some business - I hoped to maybe give a history tour to some tourists.

 

A German bloke comes up and asks about the tour. I reply "Well it's a bit of ancient archaeology, a lot of Medieval stuff and we finish in the 20th century".

 

His reply, in perfect English but with a face like thunder - "You should go back to London or America and do a tour on your crimes against people like the Indians....why do you people come here and just concentrate on the crimes of the National Socialist regime"

 

With that he about turned and stomped off, not wanting to argue his case.

 

 

 

 

About 15 years ago I was in Berlin and a group of us went on a tour of the main Nazi sites (Reichstag, Chancellery, Luftwaffe HQ, Hitlers bunker and so on) in central Berlin. It was given in English by an apparently very well informed Brit. There were some Germans on the tour too. They were fascinated saying that although German education was good on the theory of the third Reich and the camps, but they had nothing on the reality. They seemed to enjoy the tour a lot.

 

I can see that Munich which also had a major role and even the benefit of a lot of the buildings can still be seen, would be a fascinating place to do something like that. Don't be discouraged.

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and make sure you balance the tours out by talking about resistance groups, like the White rose. Show them dodger's alley and explain the state of desperation and fear the people lived in. Not to say that was no anti-semitism in the regular people, but (obviously) not all Germans were nazis.

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also you can say that the biggest neo-nazi population today is in the U.S. and tell about how when the neo-nazis do demonstrations in munich they are greatly outnumbered by the protesters (300 nazis to 3000 protesters i think)and everyone blows whistles, etc so no one can hear them. That's pretty cool, i think.

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Except for the scumbag left-wing extremists who take advantage of the occasion to spit on cops, smash windows, etc etc..

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Didn´t you say you´re happy about the result of the "Linkspartei" in Thuringia? I can´t figure out where you stand *lol*

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I can imagine guided tours through London about the "Horrors of Empire" would grate a few people.. Again, understandably so..."The Horrors of European Communism" tour, with accompanying infotainment-industry attention would sure do a lot to balance things out... Naziism is just such an irrestistable shiny sellable product though...

Right?.. <_<

 

You're comparing the British Empire and European Communism to the deliberate extermination of millions of people. Playing the Holocaust down is a form of Holocaust denial.

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All these posts about "Germans today should not be blamed for the Holocaust" are misleading and disingenuous. Nowhere in the OP or anywhere else in this thread did anyone say anything about modern day Germans being blamed for the Holocaust.

Rather, the OP mentions (perhaps) educating people about the Holocaust. An action well worth its time, as, learning about it helps prevent another one.

As for why it is so focused on, despite Herr Dink's implication that its the Jewish Media's hidden agenda (you should be damned ashamed of yourself,) the reason is simple: the sum totality of all of the unique features of the Holocaust, including the numbers killed, the reasons, the methods, and the wide spread compliance make it the single most spectacular example of evil in (modern?) history.

Yes, there were other acts of brutality in history. Stalin's actions towards just about everyone, the US's treatment of Native Americans and Africans, Pogroms in the late 19th century, ethnic cleansing in the last 20 years in east Europe and Africa to name a few. But none of these measure up in magnitude to what the Nazi party did. Therefore, it is natural that people are interested in What Happened.

 

d4n, in response to: "There are a lot of documentaries and information about the Nazi crimes but everybody seems to forget the communists. So I think that this guy didn't try deny anything, he was just being defensive. You know, it might come to a shock to some, but the Russian army didn't exactly eliberate Eastern Europe." I assume you havent spent a significant amount of time in the US in the last 60 years. Theres plenty of media on the horrors of the Soviets.

 

Finally, the idea that we should "forget it and move on" is appalling. Forgetting it is inviting it to happen again. I can speak from experience when I say that in the US, we are taught, as young children, the horrors of slavery, and the heroes of the civil war, the post civil war government, and the civil rights movement. We are taught about the terrible things done to the Native Americans (and are continually trying to make reparations on that front. See: Foxwoods) and that happened much much longer ago than the Holocaust.

We dont tell our children, "These things were your fault." We tell them, "These things were horrible. Don't do them."

 

And Dink, as for "Israel and it's supporters in the US, forever keeping the Holocaust "alive"" and this leading to us being unable "to deal with the big problems on the horizon," your teachers obviously haven't taught you enough. One of Hitler's stated reasons for hating Jews was "At the beginning of the Great War ... twelve or fifteen thousand of these Jews ... were corrupting the nation..." -Mein Kampf

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Yes, there were other acts of brutality in history. Stalin's actions towards just about everyone, the US's treatment of Native Americans and Africans, Pogroms in the late 19th century, ethnic cleansing in the last 20 years in east Europe and Africa to name a few. But none of these measure up in magnitude to what the Nazi party did.

 

 

Death toll wise Stalin not only measured up in magnitude, but exceeded old uncle Adolph's reign.

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It's the exact thing on how Americans and British people get told every day on the bad crimes which the two nations committed: America kiddnapping and inslaves of Africans and briton invasion of the comomwealth nations.(Americans & British persons should not have to deal with the bad crime past either)

I bet you Americans and brits get sick of this being shoved in you're faces, . . .

 

I don't feel slavery is shoved in Americans' faces at all, nor should it be. Slavery was an international institution, and had been for hundreds of years by the time our Civil War broke out. Obviously, it was a terrible institution, but I don't see why Americans should feel guiltier than any other Western country for the institution of slavery.

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Death toll wise Stalin not only measured up in magnitude, but exceeded old uncle Adolph's reign.

 

Possibly. There is still alot of debate on the issue. He certainly was in the same ballpark if you include the Ukraine famine, which may or may not have been 100% intentional.

 

But, like I said, at least in the US, the Soviets are not given much slack in terms of media portrayal.

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I don't know how current it is anymore, but there used to be open discussions about reparations to blacks for slavery.. In and of itself, such discussions may not amount explicitly to "having slavery shoved in my face" - but it's kind of close..

 

And I'm not ashamed of anything.

 

The Holocaust happened, and IMO there's nothing more evil about it than when some little girl gets kidnapped, raped, and murdered.. Death is individual. There are horrible tragic deaths every day. The Holocaust was just on a big, mechanized, unnvervingly efficient scale.. But fundamentally, it was nothing new. The technology, infrastructure, etc.. that enabled it might have been.. But come on - Greeks were "decimating" the populations of defeated enemies, look at the horrors the Inquisition was guilty of, then there was the whole Indian thing in South and North America... And and and... And furthermore, Stalin was just as bad as Hitler. Just because we've all been so brainwashed about racism, we have it rammed down our throat that Hitler was the worst thing ever in history. OK, so Stalin just killed millions of people on a whim, instead of millions of people belonging to one race - in both cases it was cold-blooded murder, based on wacky ideas.. But I don't buy that one was worse than the other. Just because we get brainwashed with all this stuff - from our textbooks to the likes of Spielberg - doesn't make any of it less arbitrary. It's an ideology of sorts itself - and a morality..(a contingent one, ultimately still based on poppycock Judeo-Christian "values".. - the death and corruption of us all..) IMO, an ideology with disastrous consequences down the road.. We, as a species, are overrunning the planet, breeding with no plan or sense or logic whatsoever, consuming ever more resources, destroying ever more of nature, and this won't change, partially because we're too scared to face up to the idea that we're not all that special after all, and are PART of the system of nature - not lords over it.. We're just a species. And the Holocaust was just another case of mass murder in the long brutal road of history(and nature...) It will happen again. Or it won't - this morality is so deeply seeded, that instead of curbing our numbers and consumption - with, I dare say, "holocaust-esque" efficiency(I'm not talking gas chambers, and definitely not anti-semetism.. - but at the very least enforced sterilization.., or some sort of eugenics..), we're just going to keep plowing forward til only some huge cataclysm - probably nuclear - settles it for us.. The ultimate logic - massive overpopulation(quantity over quality..) - solved by the ultimate mass-scale weapons.. Now THAT will be a Holocaust..

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