South African rape survey

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CathyP, best would be to start a new separate thread under this part of the forum and ask someone to escort you. I am sure we have many users who would be very willing to go with you. If you leave your request here, it is possible that only very few users get to see it as not everybody clicks on this thread. You also need someone from your area. What a terrible story!

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All of them are - not just the women - that was the point - hey - americans voted in Bush - TWICE - you should have gotten this point by now.

For the record: I vigorously object to a thread once again falling victim to random anti-American sentiment when the topic has absolutely nothing to do with the US at all.

 

However, I can't accept that as only one American voter who, like almost half of the other voters, didn't vote for Bush in 2000 or 2004, that I am somehow nevertheless responsible for his actions, many of which were outside domestic and international law. I would challenge you to come up with a better analogy, but it's a nonsensical argument to begin with, and any analogy is bound to also be nonsensical.

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Voters always always get the government they deserve. That's the point. The people bear the responsibility for the society they create.

 

There's no anti-American sentiment here - just an obvious point - your people elected a warmonger - twice.

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I´d be curious to see the figures that an anonymous survey of TT men would bring up - it´s easy to go along thinking that we are all better than "them", but among the women I know at least 25% have either been raped or sexually abused at some time or other....

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Why is it so shocking that the numbers are so high of people who admit it in South Africa? Because in the western world, for men, it's nothing to be proud of. However, in Africa, it's similar to saying "yeah, we went to the pub and got smashed and rowdy". It has somehow become a cultural norm among the males - who then are pushing that "norm" on the females. It's also become the "policy" of rebels, soldiers, and rival tribes - rape the women, breed that group out of existance.

 

I heard once back in the US that it's estimated that approximately 1 in 10 women will be the victim of molestation or rape in their lifetimes. Most will never report it nor seek psychological council or support groups which are available. (I know of several women who have stated one/the other happened to them - and NEVER reported it - because they felt ashamed and like it didn't matter anyhow - no prosecution...).

 

So, when it happens, what do the women do? They feel they can't go to the police - who are mostly men - and who they feel uncomfortable discussing such with after a traumatic event. If they do go, they get blamed, or worse, ridiculed that they're lying, and prosecution seems to be rare. Why put yourself through re-living the trauma multiple times when there is no "justice"? As a result they deal with it - just as their mothers, and their grandmothers back through time. Psychologically - the damage is done, and is comparable to PTSD in many ways. Most women wonder if there wasn't something done to deserve it, try to not let it happen again - and pray that they're lucky enough to not have caught a disease or unwanted pregnancy... and believe it or not - the psychology of the event changes them forever. They will always question themselves, wonder if they're good enough - and in many cases, feel that they're destined to be a victim. Not right, but it's what happens. On a side note - I'll also point out that in many countries the rape/crisis council isn't there - so it's even worse than in the western world - where this is available to help deal with it if the person seeks it.

 

As I mentioned, western cultures aren't immune of this themselves - we've just changed how we view it and have shoved those actually raping underground (they won't admit it). In our own history, we have various evidences of cultures that conquered (vikings, saxons, germans, romans) and they thought it was fine to rape, pillage and plunder. (Where do we think the phrase came from?). It was a method used to "knock down" the pride of a people, make them subservient, encourage compliance - and... "breed them out" of existance.

 

Is there a fix to the problem? I doubt it. As long as there are peoples who want to make themselves feel "stronger" and more "powerful", harbor feelings that one group of people is subserviant (based on gender or ethnicity), as we've seen, the best we can put out there is that the culture changes so it's not "we went out and gang raped 4 women" to "I got smashed at the pub" mentality of people admitting it. Instead, they do it anyway - and just don't admit it.

 

Which is better? I don't know. Rape is Rape, whether admitted to or not.

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Voters always always get the government they deserve. That's the point. The people bear the responsibility for the society they create.

 

There's no anti-American sentiment here - just an obvious point - your people elected a warmonger - twice.

And you had a lapdog who followed him blindly in. Now we have Barack Obama and you have Gordon Brown. Care to accept the responsibility? Or did you vote for the other guy? Oh, wait a minute, he was never elected at all! What a splendid, accountable system you have.

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Can't remember Bertie Ahern following Bush into Iraq...

 

Quick definition game digression: Taoiseach - finding out you are out of milk, sugar or clean cups

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And you had a lapdog who followed him blindly in. Now we have Barack Obama and you have Gordon Brown. Care to accept the responsibility? Or did you vote for the other guy? Oh, wait a minute, he was never elected at all! What a splendid, accountable system you have.

 

Can't remember Bertie Ahern following Bush into Iraq...

 

Quick definition game digression: Taoiseach - finding out you are out of milk, sugar or clean cups

A bit off topic don't you think?

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I think grampus' point is that parnell is Irish, i.e. NOT British, therefore El Jeffo's argument doesn't hold water.

 

But as much as I like Parnell oftentimes, I can't agree with his argument here either. It's been said before, but I believe he is overlooking the totally subservient and undermined class that women are held captive of in Africa, in general.

 

 

In my opinion and experience the 1 in 4 figure is low and definitely not specific to South Africa. Stranger rape is only the smallest part of the problem, rape and molestation within the family and amoung "friends" is a far more common occurrence.

 

I'll challenge any one of you to randomly pick 4 of your girlfriends here and I can guarantee you that at least one of them has had some experience with sexual assault at one point in their lives.

Regarding ER's point above, I do believe she is correct. In addition I would note that 25% of SA men polled admitted to rape. In all likelihood, they have raped numerous women, which would mean a very significant portion of the female population have been raped. I don't think 25% of men in Germany, for example, or the US, have raped a woman. But the fact of rape not only being stranger rape is very important to note.

 

 

Why is it so shocking...

Your whole post was very well written, phoenix rose. I would just note the following:

 

 

Psychologically - the damage is done, and is comparable to PTSD in many ways.

Many victims of rape DO suffer from PTSD, not just "comparable to". Post-traumatic stress disorder is a very real result of the violence and violation of rape very often. It can take women years to get over, and sadly, some never can. When you add into the mix the plight of women in third-world countries who have no access to even the most basic of psychological help, it becomes an even greater travesty.

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Also keep in mind that the victims of rape in South Africa, are often infected with HIV by their rapists, so it could be said that rape is "equal" to a death sentence. Possibly not in our society where modern drugs can help to control the development of HIV, but they don't have access (mostly not) to these drugs. And the babies that they give birth to, even if they are born without the HIV virus, can often contract it through their mother's milk, since she will have no money for formulas to avoid infecting her baby.

 

I have seen mothers and their babies like this - you feel so helpless, the odds are stacked so much against them.

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leeza is correct - I was pointing out that Ireland hasn't belonged to Great Britain since they got all huffy back in 1916.

 

(That's the year, not the time. Please keep up at the back...)

 

But I'd also like to take the time to nominate parnell as TT's premiere Peter Serafinowicz impersonator!

 

post-37665-1245532985.jpg

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Regarding ER's point above, I do believe she is correct. ...I don't think 25% of men in Germany, for example, or the US, have raped a woman.

Uh I rather think that WAS ER's point - she believes that 25% of men (low estimate) worldwide are rapists.

 

May I just say that I've met a couple of South African women in my time - let's see now - one I pretty much fell for hook , line and sinker ...

 

Of all of them I have to say exactly zero were the shrinking violet type - including MajorBummer.

 

If the South African male friends that I have had were such outrageous chauvinists then they certainly have been hiding it well - but it may well be that I have only seen the tip of the iceberg and the rest of the menfolk in south Africa are scum as MajorBummer and some others are alluding to.

 

Also to correct Grampus - the Irish treaty of Independence came into force in 1922. There's a good chap.

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Uh I rather think that WAS ER's point - she believes that 25% of men (low estimate) worldwide are rapists.

No, that wasn't my point. My point was that I believe that at least 25% of women worldwide have been raped or sexually assaulted at one time or other. I have no idea what the statistics on the number of men (or women) doing the raping are and having never met anyone who has openly admitted to commiting such an act I couldn't even venture a guess.

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Really?

 

 

In my opinion and experience the 1 in 4 figure is low and definitely not specific to South Africa

EDIT:

 

Well ok then, it is your point after all ... I respectfully hope that it's freaking ridiculous.

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Also to correct Grampus - the Irish treaty of Independence came into force in 1922. There's a good chap.

Declared... ratified... what's a few years between neighbours?

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Of all of them I have to say exactly zero were the shrinking violet type - including MajorBummer.

If the South African male friends that I have had were such outrageous chauvinists then they certainly have been hiding it well - but it may well be that I have only seen the tip of the iceberg and the rest of the menfolk in south Africa are scum as MajorBummer and some others are alluding to.

I don't believe the figures apply to the most of the people that you would have met socially parnell. According to this link http://www.avert.org/safricastats.htm you will see that in 2007 the average HIV figures in South Africa are about 30% of the population, so roughly one in 3 of people walking the streets, although figures were "much" lower around the Cape area. About 28% of pregnant women were HIV positive, and more women than men were positive. I believe that those figures tie in quite closely with the rape figures, ie a man who rapes, will not just do this once with one woman, that he is more likely to repeat this since rape is a power act too. The HIV/Aids figures has a lot to do with the sexual behaviour of the African male and his belief that he has the right to have sex with whomever he want and whenever he wants. Just look at that idiot Zuma - she "really" actually "wanted" it. Oh and yes, he washed himself afterwards so he won't get HIV infected. :lol:

 

You are still comparing these figures with the western style world that you know. I don't know Major Bummer but I'm pretty sure that when her family worried about her walking around on her own in the evening in SA (an earlier thread) they were not just concerned that she would have her mobile phone stolen.

 

In an earlier post I made a comment about a drunken Afrikaans. Apologies, that was not meant to be a blanket judgement. Just that I have known some "gentlemen" in SW Africa, who fit this description.

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In an earlier post I made a comment about a drunken Afrikaans. Apologies, that was not meant to be a blanket judgement. Just that I have known some "gentlemen" in SW Africa, who fit this description.

Spatown, thanks for that. Yeah, the male behaviour I referred to is not only limited to Afrikaans men and obviously does not apply to all South African men, but unfortunately to the vast majority. Perhaps there is a tendency amongst Afrikaans men to be more conservative than English men, but this is a general problem in South Africa. I grew up in an English society and it was part of our daily home life. The majority of South African men still consider women to have to know their place. It doesn't matter whether their skin colour is black, brown or white, you will find this attitude all over. Like I said, this is unfortunately also true for all of Africa. The men never learned to respect women and accept them as their equals. There are many reasons for this. Until this happens, we will always have a problem with rape in Africa. The different African societies need to adapt to modern life. All over Africa the impact of modernisation can be seen, but only on a material level. The different African societies have not socially adapted with their material environment. This obviously has not worked up to know. The voice of women in Africa is not gladly heared. Just look at all the trouble Wangari Maathai has already got for speaking her mind. For those of you unfamiliar with the lady, you can read about her here.

 

Parnell, just a few words. The South African women you get to know in Germany will mostly come from highly educated and wealthy backgrounds, otherwise they wouldn't be here. We do not represent reality for South African women. Reality for the majority of South African women means not even having a basic education and doing crap work for very little money, going to her home which is a little shack, taking care of her kids on her own, living in fear of the next attack on her person and on her bit of property. She gives all her money to the education of her children, buys nothing for herself and gets used to being seen as a second class citizen. If she has more than one child, as is custom, her money will first go into the education of her boys and if anything is left, which is never the case, to the education of her girls. Chances are she has HIV, chances are her kids have HIV. I very much doubt you have ever met such women here in Germany.

 

Now it's Sunday and I certainly have better things to do than hanging around on the internet, so I won't be posting anymore today.

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@ MB

First up please remember that my country of origin is only newly wealthy - many many people grew up in desperate poverty - my Mum for one , my wife (Czech) for another - they wouldn't be the exception either. Lack of education or wealth is to my mind an excuse.

 

I have family in the continent of Africa believe it or not - my first encounters with Africans were along time before I came to Germany - including lady friends. I can't pretend to know more about you about African women - my experience is only anecdotal - as is what you have posted here - but no doubt far far greater than my own.

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This is not really about wealth Parnell. It is more about mindset, attitude and circumstances totally controlling the lives of the majority of African women. Yes, if they had more money perhaps they could buy their way out of the misery, but as you can see from people like Zuma, wealth doesn't really change their basic ingrained attitudes towards women; the average African man regards them as being at the bottom of the totem pole, mainly because that makes him feel stronger and more powerful. Rape is about power over the woman.

 

Honestly, you cannot compare poverty in Africa with poverty in the West, even in those areas that have suffered economic and political oppression.

 

The threat of rape is ever present in African life. I gave a pepper spray to the two teenage daughters of my housekeeper for the times when she wasn't at home (she preferred to live at our house for a few nights at a time than always travel). They used it when their older cousin (drunk and on drugs) broke down the door of the house to try to rape them (and it worked, well probably that and the piercing screaming of the girls for the neighbours!). Despite the undoubted poverty that existed, would that have happened in Ireland?

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