German house price indices

[YorkshireLad6 7,152]

• Your Makler costs are too high - 3% + VAT would be typical
• Your property tax is way too high - 250-300€/year would be typical
• Insurance is too high - 400-500€/year would be typical, and would apply to renting too (hidden or direct)
• Repairs and maintenance are too low (in 20 years you'd at least need a new heating boiler)
• Investment interest is too high and doesn't take into account tax liability. You seem to be accumulating interest on a monthly basis, when most savings accounts would accumulate annually (especially at such high interest rates)
• Capital growth (in this case loss) is very speculative, and possibly unrealistic
• If you are going to take inflation into account in the case for purchasing then you also need to take it into account in the case for renting - the value of your investment is eroded by inflation - this will have a dramatic effect on the end value, using your figures.

 

[emkay 10,321]

Just in case anyone is interested, we too needed to find property value information. It's much harder than in the UK where the sold prices are public information and easily found on property websites. We went down the route of engaging a Gutachter which is likely to cost a few hundred euros. As a result of the Gutachter report, we are now facing a difficult conversation with the seller of the house as it is 20% over priced. Just to back-up the Gutachter report, we also bought a report from immobilienscout24 that is brilliant and matches the Gutachter price range exactly. At only 29 euros, a bargain!

 

http://www.immobilienscout24.de/de/immobilienbewertung/index.jsp

 

Has anyone got any tips on how to approach re-negotiation of the price? We do want to buy the house as many factors are perfect though paying 20% more than the value is out of the question.

[Small Town Boy 6,672]

How long has the property been on the market? How urgently do the vendors have to move? Any surveyor can come along and give you the answer you want to hear, but property is worth whatever people are prepared to pay for it, and if the vendor has had other interest then he's not likely to negotiate much on the price. In contrast, if it's been on the market for 18 months with no offers then you are in quite a strong position.

[AncientBrit 1,934]

If your Gutachter is correct in his purchase price recommendation, then simply calling your seller's bluff should work because nobody should have bought the place in the meantime.

I've no idea what's in your particular Gutachter's report, but if it's all innocuous stuff then you could even hand over a copy to the seller to justify your case. If necessary, the Gutachter might be willing to give you a slimmed-down version for the seller omitting anything sensitive.

[emkay 10,321]

Thanks Small Town Boy

 

It's a tricky one...the house had only been on immobilientscout for a few hours when we called to arrange viewing. Based on our verbal offer subject to Gutachter report, the seller cancelled one further viewing and took the property off the website (we checked that she did). The sellers are divorcing and want to move out 1st July so their child can finish the school year and start a new school in August in a different area. I doubt they have the funds to leave the property empty and pay for 2 rental properties. We'll see what happens....Thanks again

[Small Town Boy 6,672]

Hmm, a few hours. Not looking good for slashing €40,000 off the asking price, or whatever the figure may be. You can but try though. The worst they can say is "no". Well, say "no" and withdraw from the sale. Divorces are good though, as everyone wants things to go quickly.

[emkay 10,321]

STB...I agree, a few hours isn't long and you are spot on with your 40k. If I were selling, I certainly wouldn't have taken the property off the market so promptly! The house is worth more to us than the Gutachter valuation and we hope to find a happy compromise. The seller seems quite a fiery sort and we wonder how best to approach the matter. Obviously she knows that the Gutachter was there and will give us a valuation. We're toying with contacting her to ask to meet to talk over the report (husband is generally present though quiet) rather than arranging to meet then dropping the report on her. Just not sure what's best....

 

Thanks again

[MrNosey 5,328]

@pigsnuck

 

Why not post that Excel here so we can all play with it?

 

btw: Why didn't you include the initial 100K in your mortgage calculation scenario? This would have meant your mortgage amount would only have been about 60% of the purchase price and would have made a huge difference to your calcs (along with all of the things everyone else has previously pointed out, most notably YL6). Also why a fixed 20 year rate? What about rent increases?

[desdemona 1,412]

spreadsheets are good, but the satisfaction for owning your dream house is priceless. plus the chance of passing over the property to your kids...i for one would go for building a nice house in a nice area and lose all the money that be, because i'm a sentimental fool ;)

[bludger 104]

 

spreadsheets are good, but the satisfaction for owning your dream house is priceless.

 

Priceless? Really?

[desdemona 1,412]

You can argue that the price of that satisfaction will be the price at which i am willing to sell my house, but then i will

use the money to buy another house to get the same satisfaction back, and the cycle repeats, so in the end you cannot put a price to it.

[Small Town Boy 6,672]

 

You can argue that the price of that satisfaction will be the price at which i am willing to sell my house

 

It's not sellers who determine the value of a property.

 

Personally, as a renter, I get a lot of satisfaction from the knowledge that my landlord has to pay for any and all problems that arise and, as a landlord simultaneously, from the knowledge that fixing those problems is tax-deductible – two things you miss out on as an owner-occupier.

[pog451 2,486]

 

Priceless? Really?

 

Having been both a renter and an owner, I can underwrite this statement. The pure satisfaction of having your own place and being able to do what you like with it without some landlord gettingin the way is worth a lot to me.

[newinberlin 1]

Hello, am adding to this thread from a while ago because I can't find the info I need.

 

I am looking for house price information - indicies or stats that are based on the actual prices agreed, not asking prices and not prices from sale adverts.

 

I've tried calling the Grundbuchamt - but no one picks up the phone.

 

Looked at the Immoscout reports but these seem to be based on the prices advertised from their site (correct me if I am wrong)

 

Have also bought a Planet Home report but their latest Berlin report is from 2010.

 

Does anyone know where I can get reliable Grundbuch numbers on the prices actually paid for appartments in Berlin... possibly broken down by area/ neighbourhood.

The UK Land Registry publishes these figures for the UK... does the German land registry do the same?

 

Cheers!

[MrNosey 5,328]

I doubt it very much. Moving house is not a national sport like it is in the UK.

 

You can get some general figures that will give you trends by ordering a FREE report from here --> http://www.lbs.de/sh...en/lbs-research

(Select the report 'Markt für Wohnimmobilien 2012')

[YorkshireLad6 7,152]

The Grundbuch also does not note the price paid after a sale, only the mortgage on the property. The Finanzamt would collect this information (as every sale is taxed), but I doubt they publish the figures.

[pog451 2,486]

The report fporm 2010 will be fine as a starter. German property prices move very slowly, if at all.

 

If you find somewhere you like, do an online search for similar places closeby, make an offer and see what happens.

 

Price is what you are prepared and they are prepared to take. Lots of places stay on the market for months or years because their owners want too much.