How to contest an unwarranted Mahnbescheid

23 posts in this topic

Some similar threads on TT about Mahnung and mahnbescheid, but nothing directly relevant.

 

My wife used to live in an apartment run by the idiot hausverwaltung from hell. When she moved out she settled all bills with them and moved on, forgetting as best she could what bastards they are. A few months ago they phoned her and said she owed them 21€ for heating costs that were only calculated at the year end and she was honest enough to give them her new address so they could send the bill. All easy enough so far.

 

We never heard anything more from them until this arrived in the post:

post-4088-1228736386_thumb.jpg

 

The idiots have started procedings against her to recover the 21€ before we received a bill, which apparently was lost in the post. It was not sent recorded delivery and on the admission of the hausverwaltung no reminder was sent.

 

Naturally we have no intention of paying the 60€ costs, we have written to the hausverwaltung explaining that this is now their problem, and paid them the 21€ owed. It appears the hausverwaltung are unhappy that they will now be landed with the court costs and are trying to force my wife to pay. So, what action should we take with the court process? Should we send the Widerspruch back to them or return the whole thing to the hausverwaltung and say that it's not our problem.

 

Thanks in advance.

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... Should we send the Widerspruch back to them ...

Don´t ... fill the attached Widerspruch form (or simply tick the relevant box) and mail it to the Amtsgericht where it came from

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There's good reading in the Wiki here. I hope it helps!

 

EDIT: The claimant has to prove that the costs for the court order were justified, i.e. that you were aware of the debt and in payment default.

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Thanks as ever sarabyrd, the Wiki didn't show up in a forum search. We will make sure the Widerspruch is with the court ASAP and have sent a letter to the HV explaining the error of their ways. Hopefully this will be the end of it. We heard from the HV that their employee who did this has since been fired.

 

I must admit I didn't realise this was a court order already, I thought it was some stupid crap from some idiot agency trying to look threatening (which already would have been a step too far) and kind of laughed it off.

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I will amend the Wiki entry: A court order is delivered in a yellow/puce/boogers colored envelope and bears a hand-written, illegible date of delivery. It must nonetheless be taken seriously.

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So, what action should we take with the court process?

Its not yet actually a court process. A Mahnbescheid is a standard form you can get at the post office which is basically one step up from a threatening letter. It documents the fact that someone has a beef with you but as it says in the small print "The court has not checked whether the complainant has a right to the sum demanded""

 

Should we send the Widerspruch back to them or return the whole thing to the hausverwaltung and say that it's not our problem.

Definitely fill in the rejection form provided, stating that you have already paid the €21 and that should be enough. The ball is then back ion the orther guys court and he has to then start spending money to actually tale you to court which, considering you haev actually already paid, would be very stupid indeed.

 

Seeing as this is due in two days youll need to send it registered express or deliver it personally.

 

andy M

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You don't have to state a reason for contesting the court order. Just check the box "Der Widerspruch richtet sich gegen den Anspruch insgesamt".

 

[pedant]It's a court process because the court issues the order and accepts the contest form.[/pedant]

 

Drop the form (in an envelope) into the "Nachtbriefkasten" in front of the Justizpalast in Prielmayerstrasse, across from the streetcar 19 stop. There are four flaps, use the only one that moves.

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Thanks sarabyrd - does this tip of dropping it into the nachbriefkasten in Munich work when it's Amtsgerich Coburg that are running the show? It's their address on the forms.

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The story goes on... On Valentines day Mrs. Angel received a letter from a Rechtsanwalt in Starnberg working for the Idiot Hausverwaltung from Hell saying that we paid the 21 euro that was owed but we now must pay the 60 euro kosten for the 'gerichtlichen Mahnverfahrens'. Mrs. Angel phoned the Amtsgericht Coburg who were very helpful but they essentially informed her that, as incredible as it seems, we have to pay the 60 euro costs. He stated that we can contest it but in his experience we would lose. The law is an arse and all that.

 

So, we received no bill, we still haven't received a bill (but paid anyway once they explained what the money was for) and now have to pay the fees for a process we didn't know was started. Does anyone have any advice?

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It depends on the date of payment. Was your payment credited before the court order was applied for? Then you don't have to pay.

 

If the court order was applied for before your payment you may have problems, depending on the events leading up to the court order.

 

I just re-read your first post: Your wife was aware of the claim but wanted to wait until she received a written invoice or notice which, however, never arrived. You paid after receiving the court order which generated costs.

 

Talk to a lawyer. Trying to thrash this out will cost you at least €60 in time, phone calls, electricity and nerves, but: Suggest to the Hausverwaltung that you split the difference. They might have sent the notice to the old address, ask for a copy of the letter in their files.

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Thanks sarabyrd, we paid after the court order was applied for because that was the first post we ever received about the process - we never received a bill. I phoned the lawyer acting for the IHFH and, surprise surprise, he's an arse too and seemed to indicate that they only wrote one letter before starting the proceedings. He hinted at a second but wouldn't be precise then got shirty when I pressed him.

 

Logic would say we shouldn't have to pay this, but what does the law say?

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One reminder is sufficient, the "three reminders before you're in default" rule is a urban myth. Find out which address the invoice and reminder were sent to.

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So one letter to ask for money, one reminder and then default? That explains why the lawyer was getting shirty about the second letter that also didn't arrive and probably wasn't sent. One letter going missing I can believe but two is very unlikely. Neither was sent einschreiben, that he did say.

 

The Amtsgericht did tell Mrs. Angel that they got our Widerspruch and haven't heard anything from the other party so I guess they gave up on that route and chose the 'bully the little people directly' option. It seems we have run into some of the world's petty arseholes...

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I think, wherever you are in the world. once you're agin the system you're screwed.

 

As we were about to leave the US I wrote to the IRS advising them of our intention to leave, our new address and phone number in Germany and I enclosed a cheque for payment of an old tax bill.

 

We received no acknowledgment from them but the cheque was cashed and we were busy here so I thought no more about it.

 

Time passed.

 

All of a sudden there was a lien on our US bank account.

 

The IRS had continued to write to our old US address. You know, the one we'd told them we were leaving. Curiously enough we didn't answer. So they set the legal process in action.

 

Despite the fact that they'd cashed the cheque so must have had sight of our letter telling them they were leaving they refused to entertain any notion of refunding the extortionate fees they had stuffed us with.

 

Made me quite wistful for old blighty. The tax office there happily ignored my written communication that I was leaving the UK and levied the 100 quid fine for not submitting a return. One snotty letter from me later and the account was refunded and I had a charming letter of apology from them.

 

Good luck - I think you'll probably get stuffed with paying the 60€. It'll come back round and bite their arse and some point.

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So one letter to ask for money, one reminder and then default? That explains why the lawyer was getting shirty about the second letter that also didn't arrive and probably wasn't sent. One letter going missing I can believe but two is very unlikely. Neither was sent einschreiben, that he did say.

Pretty off topic and by-the-by, I spoke to an insurance company today regarding an insurance whose premiums were supposed to be debited to a long defunct credit card. The company claims that it sent at least three non-payment notifications to my old address, none of which were forwarded to the new one in spite of a forwarding order valid until next July.

 

Again, I urge you to demand copies of their file copies. If they had the new address (as you claim the did) and used the old one you can try claiming negligence.

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Despite the fact that they'd cashed the cheque so must have had sight of our letter telling them they were leaving they refused to entertain any notion of refunding...

Its like if you send someone an e-mail asking two questions & they only answer the first - your error was obviously to send a cheque & a letter in same envelope - they saw the cheque & stopped there. Same thing.

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We're going through this right now and we're going to send it back saying we don't agree. What happens next? My understanding is it removed from the courts and goes back to the parties involved. But what if you can't come to an agreement? 

 

 

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The next step is they either sue you (in court) or they don't, e.g. because they think the risks/costs outweigh the potential benefits.

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