How to get medical degree recognized and registered in Germany

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the non EU residents apply for a Berufserlaubnis (work permit) then after about 1 year or the period the Ärztekammer gives you you go to the Approbation/ Gleichfertigkeitsprüfung exam. The exam should show that your knowledge is equivalent with the UE MD studies. That (the Approbation) would be the medical licence here in Germany. It goes via Landesärztekammer (kind of the medical college) and Landesprüfungsamt (each paper needs in Germany an institution of its own :D ;.

Avoid Hessen - they require C1 level of German, and NRW & Baden-Würtemberg & Thuringen as they require further tests (german language related, +/- medical german testing - takes lots of time and these are things u learn on the go when u begin working.

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Actually this is misleading. The Landesärztekammer has nothing to do with issuing the medical licence. this is done by the appropriate authority of the Federal state (usually some short of Landesverwaltungamt or Regierungspraesidium). See here for all the authorities who can issue an approbation according to the BundesAEK. After the licence is issued you become a member of the Landesärztekammer in the place where you live and practice. But no AEK issues any short of licence. These are separate institutions, fulfilling different roles and the statement "that every paper needs an institution of its own" is very superficial and shows no understanding of the system and what the Landesärztekammer really is.

 

As of 2014 there is a bundesweit exam for non EU applicants which covers the areas of Innere Medizin and Chirurgie. Analysed in detail in Tutor wanted for Ärztliche Kenntnisprüfung.

 

The Berufserlaubnis is gradually being faced out in favour of fully approbiert candidates.

 

Also in my opinion Hessen did the right thing, and B2 is nowhere near the language standard needed to do serious medical work. Language qualifications will rise further as time goes by to address quality issues and complaints from german doctors and patients.

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on my Approbation is written that it comes from the Ärztekammer, but if you say so... :). the "every paper needs an institution" was intended to be a joke but seems that a lot of people loose their sense of humour when they've lived in Germany for a while :) In Sachsen where I lived first I've only been to Landesärztekammer for about 1 hour discussion and to bring them the legalized copies of my documents. Needed no exam, coming from a EU country. but that was a few years ago :)

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I would advice you to read your Urkunde once more. The one(s) I have access to, are all signed by the relevant authority and make no mention to any Ärztekammer. The Approbation is kammer-irrelevant and once issued valid all over germany. You can change the Kammer if you change your Lebensmittelpunkt but the Approbation remains.

 

In Sachsen the approbation is given by the Landesdirectionen. Check here straight from the horse's mouth (that is Freistaat Sachsen) if you do not believe me, though I think my previous link from the BundesAEK listing all Approbationsbehoerde is clear enough.

 

The discussion you mention takes place at this institution, and after the licence is issued, the applicant can register with the Kammer Alle Ärztinnen und Ärzte, die im Besitz einer ärztlichen Approbation oder ärztlichen Berufserlaubnis sind, gehören als Pflichtmitglieder der Sächsischen Landesärztekammer an. No Kammer can issue a medical licence, the Kammer only registers already licenced physicians. And you submit your papers at the Landesdirektionen, not the Kammer. They only want the already issued Approbation.

 

In the neue Bundeslaender, it is common for smaller hospitals to help with the bureaucracy. In this case the applicant is typically driven first to the Approbationsbehoerde and immediately after the licence is issued, to the Kammer for registration (and typically the first Dienst is in line too after that...) Thus many have the impression that their licence has something to do with the AEK, while in reality the authority of the federal state issues it. It is a common misconception for many foreign doctors. This has not changed, it was always like that. What has changed in the exam procedure for non EU physicians (bundesweit exam) and language standards have gone up.

 

I cannot understand your humour, when it comes to stating things that are not true, without doing appropriate research. These two institutions are completely separate, one being a state authority responsible for licencing physicians and the Ärztekammer being die Träger der berufsständischen Selbstverwaltung der deutschen Ärzte. Thus they are completely irrelevant, do a different job and there is no issue of overlapping responsibilities.

 

ps. it will only get more complicated with time, since hospital beds are being cut down due to the population shrinking, positions are being filled by more foreign doctors, and the better payment standards keep more german doctors from seeking better paid jobs abroad. Quality is a new constant in this equation.

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well if you compare TVÄ with what a specialist can earn abroad... Germany is good for the beginning. Once you become a specialist you can find many better options :) . The sense of humour is a wide-spread problem in Germany, that's nothing new :) I think none of the doctors I know cares what the various institution do... except LAEK sending money requirements once per year and the unuseful Ärzteblatt. You should breath deep and relax a bit.

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I am not here to argue and I have no dog in this fight. I am familiar with the administrative aspect of being a doctor in Germany (due to personal circumstances if you can call it so), and I am eager to offer some advice, because I have been also helped through this forum, when I was doing my first steps in Germany with no German. So I am trying to give something back. I don't consider not backed up by evidence statements solid advice.

 

Now to the substance of your post.

 

The "money requirement" is a deductible Werbungskost and belonging to a professional association and having certain privileges requires some financing. The Ärzteblatt is far from useless if you take the time required to read it and are interested to understand how the profession in Germany works. You forgot about all the certified Fortbildungsmöglichkeiten, events and lobbying, the exemption from the DRV and paying into a separate Rentekasse, and other things this "useless membership" is offering you.

 

You are mixing up your personal financial expectations with objective data on the German labour market. The TV/VKA might not be satisfactory to you, but if you take a minute to look at the German reality, it is not bad at all. What other graduate with 0 experience earns as much as a first year resident? Few and far between if you check the statistics. And not all of them have a regulated yearly pay increase as well as extra income from Dienste. It is true that you might get paid better somewhere else, however living costs are also higher to the point that depending on personal circumstances (ie not all people are single etc) the move might not be worth the costs.

 

You are making misleading statements and no sense of humour can cover that up, whether it is German or of other nationality. It is rather tasteless if you ask me to talk about things you have no idea about, and then try to blur the lines by blending in "humour" and "having no idea what each institution does".

 

I also find it again tasteless and rather rude to work and get paid in Germany, but bash the country, starting from humour and going on to institutions. The market is free and if you think you are worth more, neither did anyone make you come and work here nor are you obliged to stay. As simple as that. Taking the money and making nasty comments about the whole thing is hypocritical if you ask me.

 

I won't continue this, since it is evident you don't want to understand.

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I am also paying taxes and pension and a lot of social insurance (42% of my salary), so I find it also tasteless to accuse the expats coming here of "simply taking the money". ;). Some countries do pay the specialists more. It's a reality and the cause of the Ärztemangel in Germany. I said I find it very good for resident doctors, though. ;).

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[adminmerge][/adminmerge]

 

Hi.. I just finished my medical school in Russia, but I am a citizen of Azerbaijan. Now, I would like to do my residency on general surgery in Germany. As a note, I don't know German, but I have read in some forums that it is possible to study German in Germany after being conditionally accepted to residency in a clinic. Even if not, I am eager to study and pass German exam as soon as possible. So, my questions are:

 

1) What are the steps I have to follow to do my residency in Germany?

2) Is there any website or source explaining step-by-step how and where I should apply? Any guide?

3) Is it really possible to start studying German in Germany while still being accepted to residency?

4) If not, does it mean I should pass my German at B2 level and only then apply for residency?

5) What restrictions/limitations would I have as a non-EU applicant?

 

I would be grateful if somebody could help me on this. I have read so many forums and threads but everyone writes vaguely. Hope someone who has gone through these steps could reply. Thanks in advance.

 

Best,

Venry

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Dear Friends,

 

I am a doctor from India living in Germany (Bayern) since some years. I have got the B2 language certificate, am in the process of appearing for the Patientenkommunikationstest-C1 and would like to apply for Approbation. I have read that BW and Bayern have very strict procedures to give out Approbation for non-EU doctors. It would be of great help if you people are aware of and point out any state where I don't need to have a job acceptance letter to apply for Approbation and, as a doctor from India, would probably get Approbation without giving the Gleichwertigkeitsprüfung. I don't mind doing an Anmeldung in that state for the sake of Approbation application.

 

Please help.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

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If i remember well Berlin and Sachsen Anhalt didnt need an Einstellungszusage. Berlin because it has relaxed procedures for everything, S-A because they were desperately short of doctors. Bayern is doing the right thing, by setting high standards and expecting people to meet them...

 

I have however some bad news for you:

1. as a non EU medical graduate, you will sit and pass the Gleichwertigkeitsprüfung even if you go to Mars... You cannot get rid of that.

2. Even if you become approbiert without an Einstellungszusage, employers are not stupid. They know exactly why u did it there and not in Bayern. So this won't exactly shine on your record and the Approbation follows you for all your work life. I know people who did it the 'normal' way, were EU or German medical graduates and after a significant number of years working in Germany, are not even considered for a position in Bayern, unless it is the most obscure village in the middle of nowhere.. Market is very competitive in Bayern.

3. Really work on your German. The b2 is really not enough. the notion of foreign doctors with bad german filling gaps is outdated and will be history in some time.

4. I don't know what your residence status is and if u have a work permit, but you might be subject to the Vorrangsprüfung. With all those doctors from the new EU countries who have less complex paperwork, dont need residence and work permits and are not subject to this Prüfung, your chances are bad, unless you start considering very small hospitals where noone wants to go. or you look into places other than bayern.

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Australian doctor here looking to move to Germany. Just wondering what the 'standard of medical practice' is in Germany. How does it compare to Australia or other countries? Do the doctors in Germany have similar skills at a similar level to other doctors abroad?  

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Standard of medical care, knowledge etc. is very high in Germany.   Having lived and worked ( RN) in  Australia as well as other places-  I am impressed here.

Aussie medical system also very good, and remember that  all these MDs,, students, specialists  connect/interact with  medical colleagues elsewhere. They often spend time in other countries, so skill levels are comparable.     Specialist skills are often honed by spending months as a Fellow in  UK, Canada, US, Germany, Sweden etc.( As well as OZ!)

Lots of good advice/suggestions on moving to Germany as a Doctor. Also use search function to  research what you need to do as a NON-EU  potential visa applicant. Obviously your  qualifications will need to be assessed and recognised.

How is your German language knowledge?    Many professionals do speak some English, but   not all will be fluent, and other colleagues and patients will expect to communicate in German.

 

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On 10/27/2016, 2:43:41, Tifosi85 said:

Australian doctor here looking to move to Germany. Just wondering what the 'standard of medical practice' is in Germany. How does it compare to Australia or other countries? Do the doctors in Germany have similar skills at a similar level to other doctors abroad?  

 

It is an interesting question and I'm curious why it is the only one you have as a foreign trained doctor. :)

 

Although I don't think that German doctors are better than doctors from other countries, the Germans seem to believe it and foreign specialisations are generally not recognised here. Depending on your specialty,  you might be able to complete a shortened residency,  however,  it will still mean starting as an Assitentartzt (long hours). Many hospitals are understaffed and require many hours of overtime (often unpaid).

 

If you already speaks German, you might want to look at Switzerland and if you don't speak German yet, learn Norwegian. 

 

Germany can be a good choice for doctors from Eastern Europe and Asia looking to move to an OECD country , however,  makes little sense for doctors from other OECD countries. 

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@jelly Hey J, I'm also a doctor from Australia and currently in the process of trying to get my Approbation here. I have only done my internship/residency years in Australia, so I'm looking for an Assistenzärztin position here. I was just wondering if you had to do the Gleichwertigkeitsprüfung here? At the moment the Gesundheitsministerium are in the process of comparing my primary medical education to determine whether or not I have to do this Medizinkenntnisprüfung or not. I'm really hoping not, but would be interested in hearing what you had to do.

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In Germany, the medical students are really not prepared to work directly with patients. They are equivalent to biology students degrees in other countries. If they have worked in other countries after their degree they will have a LOT more experience. Keep in mind that medical education doesn't define the best physicians, but rather the level of the worst. In Germany, that bar is very low. That being said, the top 10% of physicians here in Germany exceed or achieve the standards across the globe. My perspective, Australian physicians are leaps and bounds above German physicians.

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On 10/29/2016, 7:13:20, engelchen said:

 

It is an interesting question and I'm curious why it is the only one you have as a foreign trained doctor. :)

 

Although I don't think that German doctors are better than doctors from other countries, the Germans seem to believe it and foreign specialisations are generally not recognised here. Depending on your specialty,  you might be able to complete a shortened residency,  however,  it will still mean starting as an Assitentartzt (long hours). Many hospitals are understaffed and require many hours of overtime (often unpaid).

 

If you already speaks German, you might want to look at Switzerland and if you don't speak German yet, learn Norwegian. 

 

Germany can be a good choice for doctors from Eastern Europe and Asia looking to move to an OECD country , however,  makes little sense for doctors from other OECD countries. 

 

Thanks for the responses

Engelchen - Of course, I think the same goes with any country. If you were to come to Australia as a trained specialist, they'd still make you do the same (work as an Assistenzarzt for a period of time).

Brokenm - I have spent quite a few months in Germany with other medical students and would have to say they do a lot less there (clinically speaking). Our training, at least at my Uni, was clinically very hands on. 

RedMidge - I was originally born in Germany so I can speak it. Completed all my education in Australia

 

How easy is it to get into a training program in Germany? I'm currently a junior doctor here and given what I've heard, there seems to be a huge demand for trained specialists in Germany. The current problem with Australia is that we have a glut of junior doctors coming through the system and it takes often 4-5 years just to get into a specialty program. Furthermore, the problem on the other end is that there aren't enough senior consultant positions available. I've spoken to countless final year registrars (Assistenzarzt) across multiple specialties who can't find consultant jobs. I imagine this isn't the case in Germany? Can one essentially apply directly for a program / Assistenzarzt position? 

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Just wanting to bump this thread

Have a few interviews in different states coming up. Keen to know how you went @Hichchi with regard to your Approbation application?

Any other Australian doctors working in Germany who managed to get their Approbation straight up or did you end up only getting  the Berufserlaubnis initially?

Cheers

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Hey all can anyone give me some information or point me in the direction of finding out information about working as a Radiographer in Germany.

 

My husband has a bachelor from Australia he worked in Australia for 3yrs and now he's in the Uk working as a locum but we would both prefer to live in Germany as we have close family and friends in Germany.

 

He is interested in upskilling to being a Sonographer so I don't know if it would be possible for him to study for that in Germany.

 

So yeah any information would be great! FYI My husband holds German/Australian/British citizenship so he won't need a visa.

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1 hour ago, aussiea said:

Hey all can anyone give me some information or point me in the direction of finding out information about working as a Radiographer in Germany.

 

MEDIZINISCH-TECHNISCHE(R) RADIOLOGIEASSISTENT/IN

1 hour ago, aussiea said:

My husband has a bachelor from Australia he worked in Australia for 3yrs and now he's in the Uk working as a locum but we would both prefer to live in Germany as we have close family and friends in Germany.

 

Where in Germany do you want to live? Each Bundesland has its own equivalency agency.

 

1 hour ago, aussiea said:

He is interested in upskilling to being a Sonographer so I don't know if it would be possible for him to study for that in Germany.

 

How is his German?

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