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Everything posted by circuits

  1. Welcome to the electrifying EV thread!   It's time to split from the Tesla thread and make one for all electric vehicles.   Tips and resources   - EV Database A list of all available EVs in Germany at the moment - if someone find a better one please post it:   - The EU Commission is pushing for banning combustion engine sales by 2035 Not sure if this will happen or how it will work but Audi will no longer make combustion engines as of 2026 and VW as of 2035. Mercedes says they'll be EV-only by 2030. In 2021, 14% of newly registered vehicles in Germany were 100% electric. In Berlin 48% of new cars in 2021 were hybrid/EVs.   - EV subsidies in Germany until 2025 If you purchase an EV, there is a government subsidy of up to €3750 that the manufacturer subtracts during the sale. This is currently valid until 2025. There's also a consumer subsidy of up to €6000 called the Innovationsprämie which is currently available until the end of 2022 (unless extended again like late last year). As soon as you receive the EV you can apply for it:   - Charging plug formats Europe generally uses Type 2 and CCS charging plugs for public chargers. SchuKo is generally for home use but if you want to charge above 2.3 kW is somewhat discouraged for continuous long-term usage as those cables and connectors can possibly become stressed and fail.   - Charging infrastructure and AC vs DC chargers As of 2022, Germany has 52.203 public chargers, of which 44.685 are AC and 7717 are DC fast-chargers. This does not include all the private chargers. In Europe, Tesla is slowly opening up its Supercharger network to non-Tesla EVs. Public AC chargers are usually 11kW or 22kW and it takes 2-4 hours to charge most EV's. Public DC fast-chargers currently range from 50-150kW and can fully charge an EV in roughly 30-60 minutes. This depends of course on how big your battery is, how much current it can absorb and what the charging curve is like. Most EVs charge quite quickly from 10-80%, after that the charging rate drops off.   - Charging network access As of July 1. 2023, Germany is mandating that all new charging stations accept EC/Credit Cards. For all others you need to sign up with a charging network access provider and many will give you access to charging networks all across Europe. Some are free to sign up, others have a monthly/yearly fee. DC chargers often cost more money per kWh than AC chargers, so it's important to assess your usage plan and pick your plan accordingly. (English and Deutsch)   - Petitioning to install a wallbox charger Even renters generally have a legal right to request their landlord/Hausverwaltung install one:     - EV owners can sell their CO2 credits for cash THG (Treibhausgasminderungsquote) CO2 credits can be sold by EV owners for up to €350/year:   Feel free to add or correct any info here as I quickly wrote this off the top of my head - and the market and technology is rapidly changing.  
  2. The average weight of an American vehicle is 4156 lbs. while the Model 3, Mach E, and VW ID series are all close to that.   The average pickup truck is about 5-5500 lbs. while the Ford F-150 Lightning EV is 6000.   Roads get redesigned/resurfaced all the time so this is just a fluff argument. Not to mention battery capacity is continually increasing every decade so the current weight difference will lessen with time.
  3. An EV-only spin-off would be a good way to unshackle themselves from their rigid bureaucratic structures.   CARIAD (aka Car I Am Digital ...) is a classic management disaster: VW realized too late that software would be the defining aspect of 21st century vehicles and in a panic created a new daughter company and hired thousands of software engineers to make their own home-grown auto OS. The deadlines were unrealistic, the pressure was too high and the results have been painfully slow.   "Insider sagen: 10 Prozent der Probleme bei Cariad sind technischer Natur, 90 Prozent kultureller."   The ID.3 GTX is an interesting counter-example: VW wasn't planning to make an AWD performance version of the ID.3 but a bunch of Azubis hacked one together as a design study. The internal and public reaction was so favourable that they changed their minds.   Re. Margins: when you're the largest vehicle manufacturer in the world I guess the focus for the lower end, low-margin EV segment is profiting on volume, right? You also have to take into account the carbon credits that VW can use to offset their non-EV production. VW's EV-only car-sharing company We Share is also another example of way of profiting from carbon credits.  
  4.   The definition of vaporware is something that will likely never be produced - not something that will be more expensive than a projected price. It's not as if Cupra is marketing the Urban Rebel as "WOW THE 25K EV!" in any of their press releases.   You're right that with current inflation we don't know what prices will be like then. Nevertheless VW is still the world's largest auto manufacturer. If any company is likely to eventually get their supply chain figured out it's VW. Theoretically  ...and they're just itching to leverage cheaper Spanish labour at their Martorell factory to make their cheaper Cupra EVs.   Unlike some CEO's, Herbert Diess so far doesn't tend to bullshit:   "price is a challenge. We are working on electric cars around 20k euros for entry segments."   fwiw this year the ID.3 Pure (45kwh) cost 22k after subsidy. Shipping times and availability have been brutal though. But hey, it actually exists haha.   I'm not a VW fanboi though. I'd buy any reliable brand of EV that had the specs I want at the right price.   One last thing: it looks like SEAT is going to be killed off by 2030 and fully replaced by Cupra. SEAT barely has presence outside of the EU and doesn't have a single EV planned while Cupra already has 3.
  5. The main reason this new VW/Cupra model won't be released until 2025 is cost - or should I say, profit!   VW need to really get their battery manufacturing costs down, fix their supply chain issues and improve their entire manufacturing process.   Calling it vaporware is disingenuous as it implies it won't be released. VW has a decent EV track record: they announced the ID.3 in 2016 and shipped it in 2019. The SEAT El-Born was announced in 2019 and released 2 years later as the Cupra Born.    Re. tires: For better or for worse the trend for EVs having narrower tires is mainly about increasing range through less friction and drag.   Narrow tire pros: - less friction, so longer travel range due to less power usage - reduced "tramlining" - faster acceleration due to less weight/inertia (although rim size has a bigger influence) - for some drivers and vehicles better steering and handling due to less turning resistance (due to less friction)   Wider tire pros: - better traction/grip - increased stopping power - better grip in turns   As for those 21" tires on the concept car: obviously for the boy racers lol. Sure they look wild but I prefer 18" rims due to the lower price and better comfort & range.
  6. €25k in 2025 - VW's new smaller (Polo?) addition to the MEB platform:       Max range of 440km WLTP with 166kw / 234ps (0-100km/h in 6.9s) L/W/H: 4.03m x 1.97m x 1.57m   Cute. Ditch the lame video game controller pads on the steering wheel.
  7.   ...if a person wants to have a shorter trip since charging from 10% to 60% is much faster?   See charging curve above.
  8.   Hey, no problem.   The moment you start driving and the battery is cold, the software heats the battery to bring it to an optimal state for power delivery for driving.   However, if you choose a charger as a destination point the software doesn't heat up the battery to the optimal charging temperature - which allows it to charge the fastest, eg. up to ~130kw. As a hack however you can drive the car harder/faster for 10-20min before charging to raise the battery temperature.   Bjorn Nyland does a great job of covering how well the Born handles cold weather charging:   Bjorn likes to joke that the Born is the poor man's ID.3 just to rile up his viewers.   Anyhow, in interviews VW have spoken about the forthcoming option of both manually turning on battery heating or pre-heating when navigation is set to a charging station.   (Current ID.x and Borns are being shipped with OS 3.0. In a few months, they'll ship with 3.1. Cupra use a different UI skin than VW but otherwise the underlying features and functionality are identical.)   Re. range anxiety: with the Born/VW software, you can program how much battery reserve you want left when you arrive at a charging station.
  9. I was just comparing the effects of self-imposed speed limits on travel time and power consumption.   Using ABRP with a 58kwh Born (same as ID.3), I calculated a 1260km trip from Berlin to the Balkans and made some interesting observations when using VW's charging card:   Top Speed Power Time Power Cost Time savings 110km/h 177kwh 14:58 €70 120km/h 187kwh 14:26 + €3,50 -32 minutes 130km/h 196kwh 14:07 + €6,65 -51 minutes 150km/h 207kwh 13:51 + €10,50 -67 minutes 160km/h 212kwh 13:47 + €12,25 -71 minutes (160km/h is the top speed of the Born/ID.3 because of the motor's gear ratio - in fact, the only reason the ID.5 GTX can go 180km/h is because it has bigger tires lol)   tldr; on a long trip like this, travelling at a top speed of 160km/h instead of 110km/h is about 8-9% faster but costs 17-18% more for charging. Of course this depends on how many of the roads allow 160km/h, your battery capacity, your charging card rates, the outside temperature, etc.
  10.   Yeah my dad was always into cars. His first in the 50's was a Jaguar XK140 Whereas I haven't had a car in 20y.   Re. 170kw Cupra Born with e-boost: yes, that requires the larger rims in order to accommodate the larger brakes which are taken from the ID.4. It's really not so much more expensive for the option. That version wasn't available when I was ordering so I didn't consider it.   I know a person who ordered the e-boost Born in March and it's already being delivered! What matters here is whether the dealership still has an allotment for an earlier quarter and whether VW has the parts needed to produce the version you want. I'd phone around to various dealers to find out what their Unverbindlicher Liefertermin (ULT) would be for the model + options that you're interested in.   Re. longer trips: consider charging the battery to 100% before you leave and inputting that into the trip planner.   Re. charging times: you're going to have to adjust your thinking to adapt to the vehicle's charging curve. I can't find a more recent charging curve for the 58kwh Born as it now can peak around 132kw (if your battery is already warm enough!), but this gives you an idea of how it works:   So why have an 11-minute stop when your battery is between 10 and 25% full? Because that's when it charges the fastest!   If you have longer stops earlier or later, then it may add to the overall travel time. In the end it really depends if it's more inconvenient to stop more frequently in order to have a shorter trip. With route planners you can usually choose fewer stops but longer travel.   Re. 9 1/2h vs 11 1/4h: that sounds about right. You're looking at about 15-20% longer travel times for 1000km trips. However the moment you start driving 130km/h or more your power consumption goes up disproportionately... so more stops, and more money on charging but probably about the same travel time! I just tried setting ABRP to 160km/h on a 1000km trip to France and it saved 3 minutes but used 2kwh more lol.   Re. cost: I'm sure that trip would be less if you had a charging card with better Ionity rates, possibly even around €80. For example, VW and Cupra each have a card that costs €9,99/month with these rates:   AC              0,37€/kWh DC              0,47€/kWh IONITY      0,35€/kWh   If you plug those numbers into a spreadsheet and take a guess at your yearly usage, you should get a good idea if it's worth it. For example, if I make one 2500km trip per year and half of the chargers are Ionity, I can save 150€ on that single trip. So the card pays for itself in this case.   Does stopping get annoying? I'd say it just take getting used to. Parking for free and even charging for free makes up for it
  11. Ha!   People who have 45km/h electric scooters (eg. Vespa / NIU / UNU / Horwin / Kumpan etc.) are eligible to apply for the CO2 credit subsidy aka THG Prämie of €250-400 / year.   You first have to apply for voluntary KFZ-Haftpflichtversicherung instead of the regular yearly "kleines GDV Versicherungskennzeichen" insurance/registration plates.   Then you go to the KFZ-Zulassungsstelle with your scooter's Certificate of Conformity, purchase receipt, eVB (Elektronische Versicherungsbestätigung) and personal ID.   What you then say has to be worded very precisely:   After you get the plates you can apply at any of the companies offering CO2 subsidies:   The subsidy was also ruled to be tax free for private persons:
  12.   I was interested in an ID.3 but by the time I decided to order at the end of January it was sold out until 2023. The Born however was deliverable in 2022 since it was given manufacturing priority in the same Zwickau factory as it's Cupra's first full-EV.   The ID.3 and Born are about 95% the same. Notable differences aside from the outside appearance: the Born has a nicer interior, stock sport bucket seats & alu rims, 1-2cm lower & 6cm longer, sport-tuned steering and suspension, optional 170kw e-boost version (didn't get that), but no matrix headlights option. Matrix headlights turn headlight segments on for cornering and off for oncoming vehicles.   The Born's base model has more standard features than the ID.3.   Best part of getting the Born instead of the ID.3: my car won't be mistaken for one of the thousands of VW rental We Share ID.3's on the street     I guess the Born looks, uhhh, sportier than the ID.3. My 88yo dad drives a 2018 Golf R and told me the ID.3 looks "anodyne" and boring lol.   Bottom line is that I chose the Born because I wanted a compact EV with min. 420km WLTP range as it's mainly for road trips. It's also 20-35% more affordable than the cheapest Mittelklasse, eg. Model 3 / Ioniq 5 / EV6 / Polestar / Mach-E / Q4 e-tron / iX1.
  13.   Someone in another forum just posted this comparison of the 58kwh Cupra Born and the Renault Megane EV60 Iconic from Alles Auto magazine. I was surprised to see the Megane is 12cm shorter than the Born which already seems quite compact.   My 2 cents about this comparison:   - Unlike the Megane, the Born can't tow. There are however aftermarket mods to mount a rear bike rack. - The Megane's interior is far swankier and isn't filled with so many hard plastic surfaces like the Born - For better or for worse, the entertainment system on the Megane uses Google as its OS. VW/Cupra has their own in-house OS which was crap at first but in the meantime has made great improvements. But it's still clunky and slow when compared to the Megane which also has better & larger displays - Steering, handling and suspension are hands-down better on the Born, especially if you opt for the DCC adaptive suspension - I love that the Megane has paddle to adjust the braking recuperation! I wish VW/Cupra had this - The Born has a bigger interior but less boot space than the Megan - The Megane tactile interface is far, far more generous than the Born's... blessed be the buttons and knobs! - Not sure why this magazine gave the Megane higher points for the charging speed as I've seen videos of the Born reaching 132KW at the charger   From my perspective I don't think the Megane is worth >20% more than the Born, barring potential showstoppers like Born's middling interior, lack of towing or it's OS.  
  14.   Red flag: you've reached your destination. Yes, what the HUD displays is configurable.   The Ioniq 5 HUD doesn't look that different to me:    
  15.   I tried the HUD in the Cupra Born (same as the VW ID.x series). I thought I would love it but it really got on my nerves.   Similar to most others, the HUD here is an embedded display in the dash that reflects off of the inside of the windshield. I found my eyes were often refocusing between the projected image and the road. It was distracting, also because of the display micro-jitter.   For me at least, none of the overlaid information was particularly useful considering that the main dash display is an elevated pod within a very close field of view right behind the upper steering wheel. Not to mention the dash display shows all the navigation info.   Aside from the HUD's overlaid navigation arrows, the only other AR feature is marking lanes with lines and underlining cars. I don't need that, thanks.      
  16.   Nah, you're just wrong about this. If enabled, swarm data analyzes all anonymized driving behaviour regardless if it's turned on or if a VW vehicle has Travel Assist or not.   The ID.x series have an offline mode which prevents any communication with VW servers in order to comply with GDPR rules. Travel Assist without swarm data still works in this case:   "Die Online-Anteile des „Travel Assist mit Schwarmdaten“ sind nur im Rahmen der Mobilfunk-Netzabdeckung und bei entsprechenden Privatsphäre-Einstellungen nutzbar. Der Online-Anteil kann jederzeit in der We Connect ID. App deaktiviert werden. "
  17.   What's wrong with a vehicle having an internet connection that occasionally downloads new map and driving data (a meager 10kb/km)?   The maps are continually generated by all the drivers 24/7 - nevertheless, Mobileye REM doesn't require a realtime data connection to function:
  18.   VW's Travel Assist in software 3.0 and up also uses swarm data to establish lane position, so lane markers aren't needed anymore in most cases. I've seen many video demonstrations from users so far.   I appreciate that it also lets you choose where you want to drive in the lane. For example, you can nudge the vehicle closer to one side of your lane and Travel Assist will keep it in that position.
  19. Some small updates:   My Cupra Born will supposedly be produced around July because I ordered the Pilot XL package with Travel Assist - which is an option that will only begin to be first manufactured after KW25. Others are getting their orders sooner depending on the packages they ordered.   Cupra's ordering system is a total mess right now as it depends on each dealer's quarterly allotment, the options ordered, when you ordered, your position in line among those orders, and last but not least, someone at VW rolling the dice and having a laugh (aka VW Zufallsprinzip lol).     Re. Software:   VW's 3.0/3.1 software has come a long way. The route and charger planning is now among the best, speech recognition is excellent and VW are squeezing more range out of existing models. The automatic parking memory for your favourite parking spot(s) theoretically looks interesting.   Also, VW's assisted driving just got the highest Euro NCAP assisted driving rating:   That said, I'm sure the Model 3's Autopilot has improved since it was last tested:   Regardless, Tesla is still leading the way for adaptive cruise control.   ...btw the cheapest Model 3 is now €49.990 before subsidies. Speaking of which, there was talk of increasing EV subsidies next year but then that was since walked back.
  20.   Sources please? Petrol/diesel prices are going up in tandem with electricity costs.   It's also a pretty glib assertion unless you've compared the charging rates of all the different charging cards. Check out a recent comparison chart:     Citations:    
  21.   After subsidies, CO2 and tax credits, the EV I ordered has a decent range (420km WLTP) and the base version costs roughly €22k with theoretically €7.500 less operating costs than a combustion engine over 10 years:   If someone wants to totally ignore the far cheaper operating costs, that means the ID.3/Born costs more than the "Minis" car segment price range of €13-18k but is right in the middle of the next segment, the Kleinwagen:   But if you dare to include the potential savings of €7.500 in operating costs, this is definitely in the Minis price range.   And finally, for people who can't afford that outlay there are some potentially attractive lease-to-own rates if you're clever about avoiding the typical leasing traps.  
  22.   Please clarify: what is this hypothetical 7.000 euro car you're talking about? I'm talking about one that's actually available.   In all of Germany I see a very small handful of Mitsubishi Space Stars starting at 9.500 euro but otherwise the low end starts at 11.000 to 13.000 euro.   Prices have gone way up and availability is getting worse every month.
  23.   1. This statement doesn't really jive with the German registration statistics I posted above.   As I mentioned, you can get mass-produced popular models of EVs with a respectable range (380-420km WLTP) starting at €24k which is the top end of the compact class cost - while the average new car price is €36k. And those 2 cheaper segments only represent 25% of vehicle registrations...   2. There are various websites that help consumers calculate how much they can afford for vehicle payments and all costs depending on their income and expenses. If you enter the average German net income of €2,088, the maximum vehicle credit is listed at €45k.   If someone wants to afford a €24k vehicle, an monthly net income of at least €1,800 is recommended.    
  24.   1. So far in Germany EVs are stolen less percentage-wise. In the US, Tesla's are stolen 90% less than other vehicles.     2. Many EVs have (optionally enabled!) 24/7 data connections to the manufacturers to collect vehicle or anonymized driving data to improve their semi-autonomous driving software. Not to mention features like anti-theft tracing, "Sentry mode" and cryptographically-signed key fobs.     3. Many popular Germany vehicles now use UWB to protect their keyless entry from amplification attacks mentioned in that video you posted:   "Ultra Wideband allows for high-precision localization at distances typically up to 20 meters. When combining multiple UWB radios into a single network, UWB technology can as such be used to identify the exact position of mobile UWB-equipped consumer devices in the immediate vicinity."    
  25. Why not look at the actual numbers before making assumptions about what people can afford?   1. In 2021 only 1/3 of new car purchases were by private owners vs 2/3 which were for businesses.   2. The average price of a new car in Germany is around €36,000, while the average price of a used car is around €23,000.   3. Below is a table that I transcribed of all the relevant personal vehicles (PKW) that are registered in Germany by market segment (everything under 100K was ignored in order to focus on the most popular vehicles).   With EV subsidies there are only a small handful cheap, low-range EVs that can compete in the €13,000 - €18,000 "minis" segment. However, that cheapest segment only accounts for 6,9% of all registered vehicles.   The current popular lower-priced EVs with a decent range (eg. Renault Zoe Hyundai e-Kona, forthcoming ID.3 Pure 2022) start at €24,000 after subsidies. So in terms of new-car buyers, this is on the edge of the 2nd most affordable "Kleinwagen" segment (which altogether represents 25,4% of current registered private vehicles) but is almost the same as the average used car price.   Based on these numbers I'd say EVs are out of the price range of at least 1/4 of prospective new car buyers - and obviously higher for used car buyers: Germany: PKW Fahrzeugzulassungen 2021 / Total Personal vehicle registrations 2021 Vehicle Class Total / Percent Price Range MINIS 3,3m / 6.9% €13,000 - €18,000 Citroen C1 103k Fiat Panda 185k Fiat 500 318k Ford Ka 142k Hyundai I10 224k Kia Picanto 129k Opel Adam 150k Renault Twingo 349k Toyota Aygo 169k VW Fox 103k VW Lupo 108k VW Up 314k KLEINWAGEN 8,9m / 18.5% €18,000 - €24,000 Audi A1/S1 201k Citroen C3 163k Fiat Punto 202k Ford Fiesta 866k Honda Jazz 137k Hyundai I20 207k Mazda 2 147k Mini 504k Mitsubishi Colt 101k Opel Corsa 1,18m Peugeot 206 195k Peugeot 207 191k Renault Clio 381k Seat Ibiza 419k Skoda Fabia 814k Suzuki Swift 129k Toyota Yaris 348k VW Polo 1,47m KOMPAKTKLASSE 11,9m / 24.7% €25,000 - €35,000 Audi A3,S3,RS3 757k BMW 1 596k BMW 2 210k Citroen C4 104k Dacia Logan 119k Dacia Sandero 237k Ford Focus 839k Honda Civic 127k Hyundai I30 294k Kia CEED 180k Mercedes A 691k Opel Astra 1,13m Renault Megane 255k Seat Leon 403k Skoda Octavia 702k Skoda Rapid 111k Toyota Auris 153k Toyota Corolla 129k VW Beetle 122k VW Golf 3,69m MITTELKLASSE 6,13m / 12.7% €33,000 - €45,000 Audi A4,S4,RS4 906k Audi A5,S5,RS5 170k BMW 3 1,04m Ford Mondeo 266k Mazda 6 112k Mercedes C 1,05m Mercedes CLA 111k Opel Insignia 206k Opel Vectra 120k Skoda Superb 174k Toyota Avensis 105k VW Passat 1,00m ...and the rest: OBERE MITTELKLASSE 1,89m / 3.9% OBERKLASSE 276k / 0.6% SUVs 4,30m / 8.9% GELÄNDEWAGEN 2,77m / 5.8% SPORTWAGEN 93k / 1.9% MINI-VANS 1,94m / 4.0% GROSSRAUM-VANS 1,98m / 4.1%