GMill

@PandaMunich I've just discovered something that possibly complicates or changes the discussion. The German system apparently has something called a "Liquidationsversicherung". If a company has pension obligations to its employees and goes into liquidation, it can offload these pension obligations by transferring them into a life insurance /pension policy in the individual name of the employee with some external company. This is somewhat similar to the investment I have in the UK with Standard Life except in that case the policy was planned that way from the beginning, and contributions were paid by what at that time was my own company - which only existed for a period of 18 months before being wound up again. In a Liquidationsversicherung transfer, apparently the contributions paid by an employer are considered as tax-free : "Nach § 3 Nr. 65 b) EStG sind die Beiträge des Arbeitgebers für die Übernahme der Versorgungs- verpflichtungen steuerfrei" Does any of this change the tax situation in Germany as you described above? I imagine it probably makes a difference to the Krankenkasse ie that being in the KVdR would not avoid having to pay contributions.

@Panda just an update on the Krankenkasse question. My KK is quoting §3 Absatz 1-1 and § 5 Absatz 3 of the Beitragsverfahrensgrundsätze by which apparently such a liquidation of the pension fund will be calculated on the capital gain ,not full payout which will be split over the next 1 year ie 12 months, not the 120 months that would apply to a betriebliche Altersvorsorge .. that's the current situation being currently "freiwillig versichert" However, if I wait until drawing my DE pension and pflichtversichert in KVdR then they are now saying there would be zero liability for KK contributions .. Yippee!!

Well thanks again! Incredibly useful. I'm preparing myself, nothing cashed in yet but will do it in 2024, so you've certainly forearmed me for all I might encounter! Perhaps it's worthwhile trying to get the Finanzamt to agree in advance how it's going to be handled - But yes, I'll put it directly into the KAP as you suggest.

And also, I am still not quite clear. Under the Anlage R-AUS there is a section for "Leistungen aus ausländischen betrieblichen Altersvorsourgungseinrichtungen, die mit inländischen betrieblichen Altersvorsorgungseinrichtungen vergleichbar sind" and in line 39 "Einmalleistungen aus einer ausländischen betrieblichen Altersvorsourgungseinrichtungen, soweit diese auf im Inland nicht geförderten Beiträge beruhen" Could you possibly give an example of something that WOULD have to be entered there?

One more question if I may. We now seem to be clear that closing out of a UK pension investment is not that of a "betriebliche Altersvorsorge" as understood in German tax and that it will be handled according to the Kapitalertrag. What does that mean for liability to Krankenversicherungsbeiträge? In my case I am currently freiwillig versichert in the gesetzliche Krankenversicherung , but after my official Rentenbeginn in about 18 months time will switch to being plichtversichert in the KVdR (Krankenversicherung der Rentner) - I already fulfil the conditions for that My guess is that a Kapitalauszahlung would trigger the 10 year division of the Kapitalertrag into 120 fictive monthly amounts liable to Beiträge for as long as I am freiwillig versichert but not sure if that would then continue after I join the KVdR as pflichtversichert - not sure whether that question is within your area of expertise as well

Thanks very much for your help

Sorry for the confusion with the numbers. But I wasn't mixing up things - I was referring to the line numbers in the relevant sections of the Steuerklärung because that is all that I know about and what also the tax software uses to reference things. I'm just trying to understand what the situation is for those of us who have no options for these investments in the UK, no possibility whatsoever to turn them into a lifelong pension or any kind of pension. I can prove in black and white that £9000 were paid into it - its in the policy documentation and that it is now worth about £27000. There is no fixed date when it matures, or rather there is but I can change it at any time as I want. It will never get "crystallised" in the UK except as a complete pay out of the whole amount in one go. That is the only option within the UK system for those who live outside the UK. The relevant help section for this input says "Zu den Kapitalerträgen aus Lebensversicherungen gehören der Unterschiedsbetrag zwischen derVersicherungsleistung und der Summe der darauf entrichteten Beiträge im Erlebesfall (bei Vertragsabschluss ab dem 01.01.2005= oder die rechnungsmäßigen und außerrechnungsmäßigen Zinsen aus Sparanteilen (bei Vertragsabschlüssen nach dem 31.12.2004. Wird die Leistung der Versicherung nach Vollendungdes 60 Lebensjahres (... bzw 62 ab 31.12.2011) und nach 12 Jahren Vertragslaufzeit ausgezahlt, ist nur die Hälfte des Unterschiedsbetrags zu besteuern (§ 20 Abs. 1 Nr 6 Satz 2 EStG) Not sure what "rechnungsmäßigen und außerrechnungsmäßigen Zinsen" means

@PandaMunich Thank you for that very useful confirmation - yes the contributions were only for 8 years. On the other issue of the older dormant funds. Mine is a Standard Life pension plan that only received contributions in for a 15 month period in 1998/99 - It was actually a fund in the name of my own company as an "executive plan" with a "Company scheme name" for this brief period I was working as a sole software contractor. Would it be correct for me to understand as follows? Such a plan is not actually a pension, it only becomes a pension during the process that I believe is called "crystallisation" in the UK i.e. the buying of an annuity or transfer into a UK drawdown fund. But all these options have more or less been excluded for members who are no longer resident in the UK, we are not offered any way to crystallise the investment into an actual pension. Is this then the reason that cashing in that investment is not considered under the "Renten" section of the Steuererklärung but rather as Kapitalertrag as you describe in the other thread? Because it never got to the stage of being a "Rente"? If that is so and I can put it under the Anlage KAP §30 "Kapitalerträge aus Lebensversicherung" then it seems as if I might get away with paying no tax at all as I'd be doing it in 2024 when I have a very small income - my tax software lets me put in almost €25,000 and shows no tax to pay! Hoping that is true! (I'll be 62 in 2024)

I'm coming back in on my thread here because I am still very much in the middle of these things. Condor by the way have just suddenly in the middle of QROPS transfer application decided that they are no longer going to allow full withdrawal from the fund after transfer - thanks for the advice above, I will read it carefully too. I have another related issue about a defined benefit pension that I'm already getting from a UK company. Both the Finanzamt and my Steuerberater have put this down under the Progressionsvorbehalt only as if it were not taxable in Germany. This seems to me to be nonsense - in fact the Finanzamt had already stamped a form that I sent to UK HMRC to get myself a NT tax code in the UK. Now I'm in the strange position of trying to persuade the FA that they should be taxing me. I had put the income in the R-AUS section §33 that covers "Lebenslange Leibrente aus einer ausländischen betriebliechen Altersvorsorgeeinrightung soweit diese auf im Inland NICHT geförderten Beiträgen berüht" .. which my Buhl tax software then taxes at 22% only by Ertragsanteil .. Does anyone know whether this is correct .. and if not where is the right place to enter it .. I would like to be able to clarify this with both the FA and my Steuerberater - If I am correct the it seems quite favourable to me Thanks in advance for any help on that

I have recently become aware of apparent post-Brexit loss of options on what non UK residents can do with any fund in a UK private pension scheme. The only option I am now offered by Standard Life in the UK is a complete cash payout in one go - there is no longer any option for UK annuity purchase, transfer to a drawdown account or anything else of that kind for non UK residents. From my research so far it seems that other UK companies are saying the same. The amount involved for me is relatively small (well under 100K). From what I can see, the following could be my options Take the cash payout in the UK with whatever tax implications (I can work out the normal UK tax due but am not sure how that works through into German tax via the double taxation agreement) Transfer it to a QROPS - I have found a German company that specialises in this. Not sure the implications of this if what I really then want is some kind of immediate Sofortrente or such equivalent to a UK fixed term annuity. Transfer it to an International SIPP - don't know anything much about that .. Similarly as 2) what I really want etc   Any comments, experiences, advice welcome