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About GaryC

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  • Location UK
  • Nationality British
  • Hometown Swindon
  • Gender Male
  • Year of birth 1959

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  1. Pension from Germany and UK

    Just had another read of this.  I am not sure why the FA wants a description of the CS pension, other than to inform them that it is a Government Service pension over which the UK retains taxing rights under Article 18(2) of the double tax treaty. 
  2. Pension from Germany and UK

    Normally NIC can be paid up to 6 years after the year to which it relates, so if you paid now you could always pay for 2015/16 onwards (if I've got my maths right) but after the new state pension was introduced on 6 April 2016 a special rule was put in place to allow people to fill not-full years 2006/7 to 2015/16 Voluntary National Insurance: How and when to pay - GOV.UK (    "You’re a man born after 5 April 1951 or a woman born after 5 April 1953 You have until 5 April 2023 to pay voluntary contributions to make up for gaps between April 2006 and April 2016 if you’re eligible."   So, you should still get all years 2006/7 to 2021/22 (and later) filled if it is worth doing.  You can only pay NI in any shape or form until 5 April before you turn whatever for you is the gradually rising state pension age -  I assume at 64, yours will be 66...   Once you have your NI record and preferably the pension forecast, call the DWP Future Pensions Centre.  I think there is a normal number on GOV UK but if 0800 numbers work from Germany it's 0800 731 0181.    Voluntary National Insurance: Eligibility - GOV.UK ( And to save you searching the NI 38 is here Social Security abroad: NI38 (
  3. Pension from Germany and UK

    I don't get why the FA has any interest in those contributions.  They have no right to tax the CS pension and need to know only the amount for the purposes of Progression.  As Panda says, their only interest is via §32b
  4. Pension from Germany and UK

    Indeed, he needs 5 years but they can be satisfied by UK years as long as he has a very small number of German contributions - 1 year?  Also, the UK years for post-17 education and a few other things like, I think, Azubi, can be credited as German years using a Kontenklärung.  Then the UK years will be added to those in their entirety and any overlaps ignored to get your total "German" years.  If that is more than 35 then the pension at 63 (actuarially reduced) is available; if more than 45 the version at 63+ (not reduced) is up for grabs.  I have literally just got my Bescheid for pension at 63 using about 25 UK years to get me past the 35 mark!   The DRV will put him in the KVR unless he can demonstrate that he is otherwise covered - they assume for me as a UK resident that I am covered by the NHS but I am required to inform them if that is incorrect.  
  5. Pension from Germany and UK

    I would understand the local government (LG) and Civil Service (CS) pensions to be "occupational pensions".  True, the CS pension was "non-contributory", other than a couple of % for a widow's pension until 2002 when the "Premium Scheme" was introduced, after which members of that scheme paid 3.5% and then from about 2012 (if memory serves) the contribution increased to up to about 8.5% depending on salary (I certainly paid that much) before dropping back after 2016 and the changes to the State Pension, to 7.35%.  The LG scheme has always been contributory.  The CS pension age was 60 until the 2012 or so changes when people under 50 moved to state pension age and the LG scheme has always been state pension age.   My understanding is that the DRV treats local government and Civil Service pensions as Betriebsrenten, according to their guidance on the application of §18a SGB 4 in relation to widow(er)'s pensions.  Not sure how the FA would treat them for tax in terms of the "type of pension" but certainly agree the Double Tax Agreement treatment as described.  Should you also have a LG pension then that too is treated as a government service pension for tax treaty purposes.   I'm assuming you did not turn 60 in 2001 but some time later, hence the use of "ensuing years".  I would also assume that you are entitled to at least 17 years worth of UK state pension (plus, potentially more years credited for your post-16 non-uni education) and wonder if you have considered paying voluntary UK contributions to boost that.  Until April 2023 you can (I think) still pay voluntarily for any years from 2006/7 onwards, even if you were also contributing to the scheme in another country) so probably enough to get you near the max of approx £9,500 per annum.    You may be able to pay Class 2 voluntary NIC at £158.60 per year, to generate £267 extra annual pension per purchased year, so something of a no-brainer.  If you do not qualify for Cl. 2 then Cl.3 costs £800.80 per year, so 3 years to break even.  Have a look at booklet NI 38 on GOV UK and get hold of your NI record and a pension forecast.  Still 15 months to get things sorted but time ticks away when dealing with the CS, lol   I don't think the S1 works with only the CS/LG pensions as they rely on your employer, not the state, but as you must qualify for a UK state pension, in addition, presumably to a German one if you worked here for 20 years (which would also take your UK years into consideration under the EU coordination rules) I doubt that question will arise.  As Panda says, if you do not qualify for (or claim) the German state pension then you should get an S1.   You CS and LG pensions should be paid under PAYE.  There is no NIC to pay on those pensions.  The rental income and state pension will be covered by your personal allowance if its £12,570 is sufficient and the rental is less than £2,500 per year, otherwise you will have to complete a self-assessment tax return.     Seems you will be doing various administrative tasks over the coming months - good luck.
  6. An update on all of this.    First, the R0500 and R0660 have been updated (June 2021), so if you have pre-completed them you may need to start again!  It seems the only change is one of formatting to make them clearer but also about 3 pages longer.  Still didn't take too long to re-pre-complete the new version.   The other thing I read today is that if you are a post-2002 marriage/post-1962 baby, then you do not need to include any widow(er)'s pension(s) the survivor gets from the deceased's occupational pensions.  Apparently, this is because such income does not arise from the economic activity of the survivor in the way their own pension does but from the economic activity of the deceased. It's apparently all about the precise wording of  §97 SGB VI.    Doesn't impact us but for those it would impact, certainly one to look into in detail and/or discuss with the professionals...
  7. UK rental income on German tax returns (post-Brexit)

    Not my area of expertise but an extra 2,200€ per year, just for the progressionsvorbehalt?  That seems a lot.  Are you sure you have the numbers in the correct boxes?  
  8. UK rental income on German tax returns (post-Brexit)

    This may also be the case in the UK but it is a "depends", so worth checking and, I am not sure how the 3% second property interest rules would then work - I am sure it is documented somewhere on GOV UK...
  9. UK rental income on German tax returns (post-Brexit)

    I think you need to be careful with that suggestion as you may find the acquirer is liable for Stamp Duty Land Tax in the UK. The amount depends on the value transferred and any consideration given, including taking on some or all of any borrowing secured against the property.  Also, if the acquisition means the acquirer has an interest in more than one property, wherever that other property is located in the world, then an additional 3% SDLT is payable on the total value.    I would look very carefully at the rules and the maths to establish whether I'd end up paying a fortune to save virtually nothing - don't forget that in the cases you are all talking about the saving in Germany is through a reduction in the amount feeding into the calculation of the tax rate, not the amount subject to tax at that rate, so you savings are likely to be fractions of one percent on the tax rate.    So, how much do you save on progression if you can set-off, say, £3,000 in the rental income calculation? Maybe about 0.5 to 0.75% difference in your German tax rate, if other income is about 50,000€?  So, perhaps 250 to 350€ in tax?  (I may not have my numbers quite right here but you get the point).  Compare that to shelling out perhaps £8,750 (£225,000 property valuation as an interest in a second property gives 2% on £100,000 and 3% on the full £225,000) in hard cash in relation to the change of ownership?  If the property is valued at more than £250,000 then you can add another 3% to the SDLT calculation for amounts over £250,000.  Time to get your spreadsheet out!  
  10. Pension from Germany and UK

    Having taken another look, that is indeed what I had found.  Thanks for confirming the position.  At least I don't need to get cross at Brexit this time...  
  11. Pension from Germany and UK

    Panda,  if I understand what I have been reading correctly, then, following an EuGH decision, NIC-type payments (Pflichtbeiträge an eine berufsständische Altersversorgungseinrichtung) should also be tax-deductible for those subject to limited liability treatment, though, I think/fear, only for payments into schemes in EU/EWR countries?   Presumably therefore, if a UK resident subject to limited liability in Germany makes NIC payments they are not deductible against their German taxable income - another gift from the Brexit gift that keeps on "gifting"...  And annoying, as I must make quite significant NIC payments between now and 2024, which would have reduced my German tax exposure quite nicely for 2022 to 2024, but hey ho...
  12. Pension from Germany and UK

    Excellent - all makes sense now...  
  13. Pension from Germany and UK

    Good stuff.  But have you also checked whether you can pay Class 2 at £158 per year, rather than Class 3 at £800?  If you can it is a complete no-brainer to pay up missing years.  Also, if you have access to the Government Gateway, you can see your NI record and Pension Forecast online.  If you only left the UK a few years ago, you may well have already set it up and it should still work.  
  14. Pension from Germany and UK

    Great, thanks for clarifying
  15. Pension from Germany and UK

    Panda, I assume the same goes for my other half who is electing for unlimited liability treatment and who will be paying a voluntary NIC year in 2022?