markfusara

I've received the determination of property tax value following the declaration for the Grundsteuerreform. It states that the notification of the property tax assessment amount will be sent around the beginning of 2025. I'm trying to understand though if I can already know the increase in the value that's called "Einheitswert" and which is stated on the Grundsteuerbescheid. I don't see this value on the document I've received, what I see is the Grundsteuerwert which I think should be something different. I know the Einheitswert for that flat is currently a few thousand euros and the Grundsteuerwert stated on this letter is a value close to the market value of the flat...so they're quite far apart.   I'm not sure if there's a way to know this value already (it is used to calculated taxes in Italy on real estate owned in Germany) or I will simply have to wait until 2025.   Thanks

   

Hi, my brother's tenant is moving out in a couple of months and she wants to take doors and floorboards with her (also shower tab and a few other things) because she insists she's put those things in herself (surely there must have been doors..) Now, first of all I'm not sure if she's allowed to even if she did. But also, the flat was bought rented so it was in the state it is in now when he purchased it. She could claim anything as my brother has no way to know what the flat looked like before she moved in. I guess one option would be to ask the seller but he's not been very cooperative in the past. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone has any insight what the law is in this regard. Thank in advance.

  It's the opinion of this legal studio that the new value should be used to calculate the IVIE already from 2023:   https://www.avvocatoagnelli.eu/progetto-germania/fiscale/   What changes for taxpayers residing in Italy In light of the Grundsteuer reform, as of January 1, 2022, cadastral values of real estate located on German territory are redetermined as of the same date. Although these values will be used for the purpose of applying the German Grundsteuer only as of 2025, the new values will be ascertained and certified by the German tax office as early as 2022 and for the current year. The issue of taking into account the new cadastral values for the purpose of calculating the Italian tax (IVIE) is therefore open, which, as mentioned earlier, takes as a reference the cadastral value "as determined and revalued in the country where the property is located." And this presumably already with reference to the declaration to be filed in Italy in 2023.    

    Haha thanks Panda! It is indeed ingrained but I really do appreciate the precision here. Incredible research as usual. My notes say that also the HEBESATZ has to be taken in consideration:   IVIE = (0.76% * Einheitswert*HEBESATZ) - Grundsteuer   Therefore my confusion as the Grundsteuerwert can't simply substitute the Einheitswert if the Hebensatz stays in place since it would lead to an astronomical result. Or possibily is it then that being the Grundsteuerwert already the newly evaluated value the Hebensatz equlas 1 and that's it?   Anyways, the difference after this reform is astronomical for Italian residents who own properties in Germany. I'm a German resident so I don't pay this at the moment but as an example, my 38 m2 flat has an Einheitswert of 6.340 € and the Grundsteuerwert is 137.000 €.. so the IVIE comes up to 1.041,2 euros (minus Grundsteur) ... this taking the Hebensatz out of the equation.. up to know it would have been, if my calculation is right, 197,55 euros ( 6.340 * 0,76% * 410%), therefore below the threshold of 200 euros and not due at all!    

  Thanks Panda, I see that makes sense. I thought it would still be a smaller value that would then be multiplied by a certain factor to obtain the market value and / or calculate the grundsteuer. But so it will actually be the Grundsteuerwert instead, the estimated market value.   So I guess the calculation to get to the Grundsteuer amount will also be different that it is now.   And I wonder what will be considered then for calculation of IVIE, the tax Italians residents pay on property abroad. So far what it was used was the Einheitswert since it's considered the equivalent of what in Italy is called "rendita catastale". Also, since for a rented flat the Grundsteuer is paid back to the landlord by the tenants through the Jahresabrechnung, will this stay the same? Cause then the whole burden of the increased tax will be on tenants.

He has that

I know you're not lawyers working for me, I just think trying to get a legal opinion on the legal thread and getting a lot of "just be happy she's moving out" is a little useless, that's all. Someone here, as it is often the case, probably knows the law or has been in a similar situation, therefore the search for information here.

Thanks everyone for the advice. It sounds to me like she could say anything and doesn't need to prove it at all. I will suggest to my brother to ask for receipts and ask the previous owner about the state of the flat when it was rented to this tenant. And yes, I think whatever had been put in by the tenant should have been mentioned by the seller before the sale and it is indeed my brother's fault not to inquiry about it.

Don't get my wrong, WE ARE DELIGHTED she's getting out of there, she is awful. That being said, if someone asks me for money or they'll take the doors with them I'd like to understand if they have a right to do so.. especially since this is just the last examples of her shitty behaviour.    The point here is, once again, if you bought the flat rented and therefore have no idea how it looked like before the tenant moved in, they could claim anything to you, correct? So what's the rule here? Not really asking for opinions on if we should already be satisfied enough with the fact she's leaving.. I thought this was the legal thread.  Should she have receipts to prove that anything she claimed to have put in was in fact so? This would be a crucial piece of information for instance.  Thanks 

5 years more or less.

  Thanks this is helpful. 

  I'm not sure what you mean. She pays low rent cause it's an old contact, end of the story. The flat costed a bit less because it was sold rented of course, which is absolutely normal. I really don't know what you're trying to say here.  I don't know if I would define the seller secretive, it's just that he's sold the flat years ago and probably doesn't care at all about being helpful with something regarding a property he doesn't own anymore. 

  I think he was but they weren't very helpful in the past. Hoping to find the info here honestly. 

  Yeah she wants money, which he's not going to pay, she was the most horrible Tennant and basically lived there for free for yeas renting one room for the price of the whole flat. She claims that there were no doors before.. which to me makes absolutely no sense. That being said, since the flat was bought while she already lived in it, we have no way to know what it looked like before.  Asking for receipts is a good idea actually as she probably doesn't have them. I mean, she could claim that she bought anything in there so if we're entitled to ask for receipt as proof she's put those things in that'd be great. Does the law say that you think? 

    Amazing, thank you so much, that's what I thought but great that I asked you since I had been told otherwise. 

Has anyone here dealt with the  Grundsteuerreform declaration for a Teileigentum? I specifically own a commercial space on the ground floor of a residential building and I'm trying to complete the GW2 form on Elster .    The information I'm asked is the "Bruttogrundfläche (m²)" and someone on the Elster forum suggested that it should be calculated as indicated on section 8 of the following article: https://datenbank.nwb.de/Dokument/383088/   I'm not sure I get the whole picture though. Is this for the whole building or only for my unit?  And also, how does a residential building with shops at the bottom classify? Mixed use?   Any indication from someone who's already encountered this would be really helpful.    I'm attaching a screenshot from Elster.  Thanks in advance

I would also just like to confirm also the information I got on the Elster forum regarding the Gebäudeart.  This is also a bit confusing as it seems to me like they are asking "type of building" but I should answer only based on my property type. So I would have thought the right answer would be "Gemischt genutzte Grundstücke (Wohnhäuser mit Mischnutzung)" as it's a commercial space on the ground floor of a residentail building but apparently I should instead put in Bürogebäude because it's used as an office? Sorry that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me but it's what I understood on the other forum and I want to double check here since @PandaMunich seems to always know and explain things really clearly. Thanks. 

Of course the administration doesn't have those numbers.. so I'll have to go with 1.55 * Nutzfläche. 

Thanks Panda, this if finally clear now. I have a pdf of the whole ground floor with measurements so I think that would be enough to calculate Nutzfläche and Konstruktionsgrundfläche (which is the total area taken by inner and outer walls if I understood correctly).   I would then need to ask the administration for the total_staircase_area and heating_room_area in order to calculate the remaining to values to add (Verkehrsfläche and Technikfläche). Sum the four values and that should be it, and hopefully lower than 1.55 * Nutzfläche. 

On the Elster forum the info I got is that:   For the other commercial properties and mixed-use properties , a conversion factor of 1.55 times the living and usable area (living area of the apartments and the usable area of the commercial units, but without a basement) can be used as an aid to determine the gross floor area.   But what classifies the usable area of a commercial unit then? If I understood correctly Panda is saying that is everything, including the outer walls. I thought it was only the space that is used for retail but that's just based on how I saw commercial properties advertised, where sometimes the front rooms size is classified as "Nutzflasche" and the rest isn't (say bathroom or a storage room). 

Sorry I stil don't get it. :(   The factor would stay the same though so if I was to measure the size of the unit the square meteres would be somehow less then the size stated on the purchase contract? 

Thanks Panda, that screenshot was posted by me on the Elster forum! I didn't get to a definitive answer though and sorry, I did repost here today (and in that thread) without realising my original post also contained a question (whole building or not) which was indeed answered on the Elster forum thread.    As for the multiplication factor and Nutzflasche, as you can see in that thread, I hadn't understood completely. The user there originally suggested using a factor of 1.5. but I guess it's 1.55, as for a flat. And as for the Nutzfläche, I thought in the case of a shop the Nutzfläche wasn't exactly the whole square meters of the property, but from what you're saying it is, including everything (bathroom corridor etc.).  Why are you saying that if I was to measure it myself it would be in my favour / smaller?     

@PandaMunich do you happen to have any idea about this? Can't seem to find anyone online who has done this successfully and even my accountant, who's usually very well informed, said this information should come from me even if they were filing the declaration on my behalf.. 

Just checking again if anyone has dealt with this here.. it seems like there's no straight way to determine this.. it's absolutely confusing...