Police at the Hauptbahnhof - ID checks

I don't know if it's just me, but the last 2 times i've been in the Hauptbahnhof i've been approached by a gang of police who want to see some form of ID from me. Yesterday i only had my travel pass but it was enough for them. Then one of them takes it away and phones someone, dunno why though, and the others stand guard round me, then everyone's staring assuming im some criminal! Yesterday one of them asked me if I'd been in trouble with the police before. I said no, he then proceeded to ask me if i ever smoke weed! I was proper narked off!

In fairness i dont look like a thug and have a fairly pretty face so whats the bloody problem?!? Anyone else had any similar experiences?

big fat UGH!

Not to me - I think I must walk around with "confused foreigner" look on my face at all times! But have have noticed it loads of time on the level between the S bahn and the U bahn. Maybe the police have a competition goiing to see how may people they can stop

yeah i had it on the downstairs bit yesterday near the S-Bahn. I've also had it outside the shop which does english newspapers. Incidentally it's always been a sunday, only going there to pick up a few essentials as nothing else seems to be open!

They're bored. And its a lot safer for them than catching real crims.

Closest I've ever come to getting stopped was when me and the missus got off the U-Bahn at Max-Weber Platz once. It was the missus that got IDd and had her bags searched, which is surprising because she's an angelic little thing (especially compared to me). Still, she gave the copper a bloody hard time and even got a mumbled apology!

Yah i faced this as well this weekend while i was travelling from Munich to Paris and back! I travel pretty often on this route and never was stopped in the past but this time they stopped me at Paris CDG and checked all documents and similarly when i returned to Munich this Sunday morning this happened again. But i think this is not normal as well, since i had never been checked in past 6 months inspite i travel everyweekend.

and, you know what, the first time this one copper took my passport, stood on his phone for about 15 minutes trying to contact someone but never got an answer. Then he just gave it me back and told me it was fine! Thorough checking system they have there then!

are you dark skinned? if so that explains it.. the cops here tend to target non-caucasians, even clean cut business men ... i think it happens in much of europe cuz i remember when i was in prague with a friend we were int he casino int he train station kinda being loud n stuff then abunch of cops started walking thru and they went right by us but stopped and checked ids of every darker skinned person there.

nah, I'm PALE!

This sounds weird. I've lived here for 18 years now and no one has ever asked me to ID myself (except once when wearing an AK47 strapped to my back) . Blond female, BTW. Paul, are you sure you don't look suspicious somehow? Long hair, race other than white, wearing rasta paraphinalia, etc?

nah i dont look suspicious i dont think! I style my hair and stuff but its only blonde/red but its more stylish than thuggish. Other than that just a normal white male!

I've been here for a while and happen to know a couple of coppers that work undercover and according to them the hauptbahnhof does a thriving business with drugs ... could have something to do with that

With by charming thugish looks, I have never been stopped at Hauptbahnhof.

Maybe we need to do some controlled experiments to see what you gotta wear to get stopped.

Phil

I've heard too that there's lots of dodgy business going on in and around the hbf area. there are lots of undercover bizzies there doing spot checks.
I've never been stopped though but every Sunday when I go for my paper I see lots of clusters of bizzies (and pretend U-Bahnwache bizzies) standing around and checking any non-German looking people. (eek does that mean I look German???)

Paul Schlong, are you maybe aged under 30 and were dressed in anything vaguely "punky" or "hip hop" style?

Police are ALWAYS checking at Hbf either non-caucasians or kids they think might have the odd spliff in their pocket.

If you carry substances for enjoyment that haven't had tax paid on them to the government I'd also avoid Sendlinger Tor station too.

The police doing these checks are NOT going to get a Mr Big with a suitcase full of heroin, it's just harrasment.

I'm 20 and was wearing casual clothes, jeans, trainers, t-shirt, h&m stylee. must be the drugs thing then!

Ah, maybe Schlong has permanently dialated irises?
No, wait, I've checked your profile. I see your crime! You're YOUNG!!

how did you know??

I've been in Germany more than three years (Munich 6 months) and never been stopped for ID--even though I wear my hair in dreadlocks and dye them various bright colors.

Saan must be *too* obvious.

Hmmm... this is where my anti-government streak really gets wound up... if this is the case then I'm in the mood to wear some shady looking clothes (which will go well with my dark skin) and hang out there with bags filled with powdered sugar and just wait to be stopped... would love to make them waste lots of time and resources then say "it's for baking cookies".

I've never been stopped by the cops either, but I always see them searching coloured guys. When my brother came to stay last month, he was waiting for me at the Hbf where we'd agreed to meet and he got approached by the cops for just standing there...admittedly he is a 16 yr old grungy looking kid. Anyway, he didn't understand a word of what they were saying, but I cam along and curtly told them that he was with me, and they were fine and apologised! All quite bizzarre!

I did not even thought this was done on a regular basis. If not travelling outside of the city I rarely carry anyform of ID. What happens if you have no ID on you?

I commute through Hbf daily and I see this AT LEAST once a week.

They like stopping cars on the Arnulfstrasse that contain non-white caucasian passengers and it is GURANTEED if they are in a car with plates from near the Czech border: SAD/FRG/CHA/REG etc etc.

Favourite places for harrasing rail passengers is the S bahn entrance in the 1st lower level near Müller / Hertie and the mezzanine level on the way down to the U1/U2. It's like a funnel there and the police can easily pick out their targets. Also there, it is almost impossible to avoid running into them.

Physical searches of pockets and wallets are carried out in public amidst the stream of passengers.

If you can't satisfy them, you are not unlikely to be dragged off into one of their side rooms where it is not unknown for non-caucasians to have a nasty slip and hurt themselves and witnesses are most definitely not welcome...

Grtho, I will not believe that for a second until you provide some proof. Enough with the "police are evil" hearsay.

My best mate saw a non-caucasian man being physically mistreated by U-bahn Wache at Sendlinger Tor Station. They dragged him to a corner of the stations that is rarely used at night but released him when they realised they were being watched and my friend asked a stranger to witness as well.

I have seen a non-caucasian man being beated with truncheons by 3 policeman at Stachus station, he was in a corner and defenceless and not able to offer any resitence to arrest but they kept beating him anyway.

There was a thread recently on TT about someone witnessing the harrasment of a Black man on the U-Bahn and him being physically mistreated.

I'm sure there is occasionally police violence, even if 2 out of 3 of your examples are still hearsay. But I find the way you suggest that it's not unusual for someone to get dragged to a back room and shit beaten out of them, then have it written up as an "accident" offensive. This isn't bloody Marseille.

One I personally witnessed, one my best mate personally witnessed and reported to me the next day and one a TT poster witnessed and posted on here shortly afterwards. Hardly along the lines of "a bloke in the pub told me that he'd seen Elvis working in Tengelmann's


I find the police harrasment of young people over the odd spliff and the racist harrasment of passengers at Munich Central Station offensive.

It doesn't happen every time, it doesn't necessarily gets reported as an accident, this happens quite often in a grey legal area ie: probably not legally under arrest and thus needs to be minuted.

I doubt very much that there is much research into this issue as opposed to (say) Britain where racism in the police is (to a certain extent) seen as a problem. After all, it's only "Ausländer" that can't vote isn't it.


True, in Marseille local kids get very angry, burn a few cars and put bricks through windows over police harrasment.

Yes, it would be much better if the drug pushers were left alone. Then we could have the heroin addicts move in and hang around like they do in Hamburg and Augsburg.

In Germany you are legally required to carry ID with you at all times. Not having it with you will generally not get you into any real trouble, but it is pretty stressful if they do decide to control your ID and you don't have one, because you then have to hang around until they can confirm who you are, that you're not wanted by the police, an illegal immigrant or whatever...

I have been in DE for 10yr (Frankfurt 5 / Munich 5) and have only been
asked for ID 2-3 times. The last time was many years ago, on an ICE
from FRA/MUC no less..

I agree, I have seen many questionable things going on in HBF.
Everything from guys with wads of $$$ doing deals on the Sbahn
platforms, ($$$ for Passports / $$$ for "Stuff)... To the guys who
hang around the payphones near the Shiller Str. exit making/getting
calls for hours at a time...

If anything I think they need to be out doing it more often. If they are
only doing this on Sundays, then no wonder they are missing all the
Other going's on...

what's wrong with making phone calls from payphones?

@showem
Here's the earlier thread that Grtho was referring to:
Police Racism in Munich

The "drugs" controls we are talking about here are in ALL the cases I have witnessed in Hbf (and I see it maybe once a week) were of young people aged 20-30 in casual clothing. From what I could observe (and from friends of mine who have been controlled) it was about the odd spliff and NOT people carrying (large ammounts of) (say) heroin.

There is a (small) hard drugs scene at Hauptbahnhof, Ostbahnhof and some other railway station in Munich. Funilly enough, although the police do occassionally crack down (excuse the pun) on it heavily, they prefer to have the scene in places where it can be observed and controlled. And the people at Hbf who "push" hard drugs are small time dealers financing their own habit I'd say. hardly "Mr Big". Have crackdowns on hard drug users or harrasment of young soft drug iusers at HBF ever resulted in a "Mr Big" getting nicked? No, of course not.

Yes, and the police should be able to tell this just by looking at them. Perhaps they can get a special hat issued to them so the big bad police can leave them alone and they go about selling small-time quantities. I'm sure a few druggies supporting their habit won't bother anyone. Puleez.

What I'm saying is that the small time dealers of hard drugs at Munich Hbf are not "big bad drug dealers out to corrupt and destroy pure Germanic youth" as Herr Beckstein might say but users of the (say) heroin themselves and also caught in a viscious circle.

On this thread we were specificly talking about young people being controlled in the Hbf, primarily those suspected of maybe carrying the odd spliff for personal consumption. Pocession of small ammounts is decriminalised but Bavaria maintains a rigourous position on the issue.

Regarding the hard drug scene at Hbf, the police know it exists and alhough they do sometimes crack down they prefer it to be there where it can be observed and controlled.

Of course, what we need are "clean rooms" where addicts can use inhected drugs safely and pure heroin available on prescription for addicts rather than on the streets where it is cut with flour, brick dust or bleach! but that's my libetarian streak and a bit off topic.

maybe you look like a know crim then ??

how small?

I don’t understand, than why at Frankfurt main, one can see the Drug users openly taking and selling it on the streets around Hbf whereas here in munich it’s never so explicitly observable?

I don’t think it’s only because of police attitude. It may be something with law of individual sate.

also has something to do with the catholic conservatism that thrives in this part of the world.
bavarian police do take the nimby stance on certain matters. namely drugs.

In 1994 Bavaria became the first German state to introduce arbitrary police stop and search of individuals without the requirement for "reasonable suspicion".

The Police are allowed to conduct arbitrary stop and search operations within 30 km of the German border region, on motorways and other thoroughfares, at airports, train stations, bus stations, and in trains themselves. During these operations, police are allowed to stop any person, to ask for identification, "to look closely" at objects carried or even to search the person and vehicle.

The official reasoning behind arbitrary stop and search is the prevention of drug crime, illegal immigration, and cross border crime.

During dragnet controls on motorways and in train stations it is not possible to control every traveller so officers are forced to perform "pre-selection". Police regulations do not delineate that certain groups of persons should be controlled but the officers themselves have certainly established criteria for tracking particular groups of foreigners. It is predominantly outward appearances such as skin colour or life styles which lead to controls, especially if in the eyes of the police "something does not match". For example, if someone "whom one doesn't trust to have ever earned 100 Euro is sitting in an expensive car".

During an eight month period of controls in Bavarian trains between 1997/98 the police had a "hit rate" on drug trafficers of 3%. And another 7% of those stopped were illegal immigrants. The higher proportion of migrants and refugees compared to the drug trafficers reveals a strategy of the police which is based solely on outer appearances.

Arbitrary stop and search violates the principle of equality as laid down in the German Basic Law because, even if only indirectly, they are tied to specific groups of persons, in this case migrants. They open doors for the arbitrary criminalisation of migrants. Furthermore, the present control practice will lead to an even higher representation of foreigners in police crime statistics than exists already. This in turn, will lead to more discrimination and legal repression for migrants.

The above is a summary taken from:
StateWatch.org - Arbitrary stop and search operations in Germany

For minimum trouble these are the standard guidelines should you be controlled:

• Provide your ID card when requested
• Stay cool and polite
• Give your personal details, but no details about your activities
• Decline, firmly but politely, to give permission for a personal search
• If the police insist on a search you should first ask on what grounds and then allow them to go through with it
• Bear in mind that the police will bluff in order to get more information out of you

2 good posts CW!

The EU is looking at banning German use of "Schlierfahndung" in the 30 KM zone as illegal discrimination and a hinderence to free EU movement - was reported on Bayern 3 TV a couple of weeks ago. of course the porkers and the CSU are apoplectic on the issue.

What's the big problem? Show the guy some id, or tell him you're name and address and be on your way. I can see nothing wrong with them stopping people at random and ensuring they are acting in a lawful manner. It should be done a lot more in the UK, where the police are now too frightened to stop and search anyone who isn't white for fear of being accused of racism.

Kind Regards,
Shane Cook.

Surely someone just standing in or walking through a train station IS acting in a lawful manner?

It sounds a bit wanky that you would stop someone in the street and say "Now sir, are you breaking any laws at present?", which is essentially what they are doing.

I could understand it under certain circumstances, state of emergency, that sort of thing, but it's not right normally. Sure they probably catch some illegal immigrants and so forth but for the most part it's just hassling innocent people who happen to be not white. My mate who's Indian (well he's an Essex boy really but don't tell anyone) got checked at the airport when he was there to collect his wife.

From what I hear some German woman in a posh frock who happens to live in Britain's dearest council house said as much yesterday in Central London. David Blunkett came all over the seats apparently.

Lemurs: You're in Germany. Different rules. One of them is "You must carry ID and present it if asked by authorities. Full stop." You can't accept it, you're free to leave. As to what could happen? Give them a hard enough time and they can deport you. Not an EU citizen, you're deported from the EU.

Darkknight: Exactly what I tell them. Either they accept my NYC driver's license (a legal ID in the US) or the KVR issues me an ID. I will never again carry my passport on me unless absolutely necessary (e.g., getting a visa stamp or crossing borders). I had my passport pickpockete before 9/11; it's a lot harder to get a replacement now. They always acquiesce.

scook17: Either you're a pathetic troll or you're terribly ignorant of history. You don't live in a glass house, you have curtains on your windows and you send mail in envelopes, not on postcards.

grtho: link please?

woof.

Link on some unelected German woman announcing plans for compulsory IDs in Britain that will undoubtedly lead to repression of minorities and giving a stiffy to one of the most authoritarian Home Secretaries that Britain has seen?

news.bbc.co.uk

might be a good place to start.

Good words CW.

Now not that I indulge myself, but lets just say for arguments sake I was carrying a spliff, keeping it safe for a friend of course. Presumably I don't want to be searched under any curcumstances.

How far can I go in refusing to be searched?

Like the idea of carrying some sugar.

A though I just had... now I know I'm in a different country and respect their right to have their laws (and my right to think they're police-state like, but if I'm here I have to deal with it).

Funny thing is that a few folks I chatted with at work think this is a good thing... so I asked them what they though of Bush (they hate him)... why ask? Because I'd venture a vast majority of Americans who think the police should be able to do this are Bush supporters (who only seem to remember the 2nd ammendment to the Constitution and forget the rest)... don't know the correleation, but found the idea curious

Nope. If society want to stop drug use, then it must be a zero tolerance "one spliff and you are electrocuted." approach. No distinction between crack, heroin and marijuana - oh wait no, there is already pretty much fuck all disticntion between different types of "drugs". Copper asked me if I had any "drugs" and I asked him to hold my beer and my cigarette whilst I looked. Humour obviously lost on him.
Zero tolerance in Singapore keeps it all nice and sterile. No arts, no music scene, no free thought. Perfick.

German random ID checks that I have seen (albeit not at Hbf, I don't go there its the most foul part of town) are fuck all to do with crime prevention and more to do with racism or the police getting a cheap thrill frisking young men. Never see an octogenarian getting stopped and getting searched do you.
(note to self, forget pensions, deal smack later in life. Sweet.)

Oh a quick word on "pushers". They do not exist. The person most likely to "push" a drug onto you is one of your friends, not some evil little man going "yes, yes buy some heroin, go on, it'll make you feel good"- I have never once in my life, in any city of the world seen somebody "push" drugs. Some little scrote selling junk at a train station is not even worth arresting. Will hardly have an effect on world smack consumption. After finding 1 spliff on a friend, Mr Plod here said to his 5 colleagues "Bingo", as if he had just found the proverbial smoking gun. If you are reading Mr Plod, I am happlily still smoking dope in your country, and as soon as I can be bothered to get around to it, I'll be signing on the dole, and you'll be paying for my "habit".