I hate Sundays in Germany

And again - I brought up this point earlier, but it was conveniently ignored.

How is it that all food shops in my area, which are forced to shut on Sundays are all from large chains - without exception, but all the bars and restaurants, that are allowed to open on Sundays are all small, independently owned businesses?

Sure - that's why there was nobody in any of the shops when I was in Cologne for an open Sunday.

Come on - the shops were absolutely rammed. You can't tell me that those people didn't enjoy Sunday shopping

yes, real is more convenient - thats why mom and pops died in America, not Sunday openings. Thats the point I was making.

I'm not trying to say that the people didn't enjoy shopping.

Hi, welcome to the Internet where people complain about things that annoy them to vent steam. Interestingly enough, nobody cares what you think about us complaining either. Perhaps I could direct you to one of the hundreds of other threads where people are debating the merits of an issue they personally have no chance of changing?

Put English subtitles in the movies!!!

Who said Germans don't want Sunday opening? Ahh... that'll be the guys who don't want Sunday opening doing a poll of Germans to see if they don't want Sunday opening.

Same problem we had in the UK - the Church and the Conservatives kept coming up with stats saying everyone wanted "Keep Sunday Special" (that was their actual campaign slogan). The Church' main problem was they were concerned attendance at church would drop.

So, the middle class wanted Sunday special - but the average working lad wanted to be able to do what he wanted. Witness the polls in "lower brow" papers like The Sun - majority of people wanted Sunday opening.

This is all about choice and free markets. I bet those who don't want Sunday opening also don't believe is a true free market ;-)

Or maybe it was a combination of things. Not everything is so black and white only one reason that things happen. I mean you could go into the whole ramifications of having the big stores take over and be the only things left.

No, but the dubbing has got to go - it is a travesty.

Incidentally I am stuck going to Cartagena for work in a few weeks - can I buy blow on a sunday?

You could, but that would be an example of the slippery slope fallicy, because even in the soulless wasteland of America big stores are not the only things left.

And if only a very small minority actually wants Sunday shopping, then nobody will go and the shops will close of their own accord on Sundays - without the need of a regulatory law. Maybe one or 2 will stay open for the small amount of demand, but at least give them and the consumers a choice.

Obviously I don't think that scenario would ever occur, but there would be no harm whatsoever in changing the regulations even if nobody wanted to go shopping.

And ignored again...

If you go to small towns around the U.S. a lot of the time you now have a dead downtown area and a large problem trying to get a liveable wage job.

Edit: so mcdonalds is forced to close on a sunday hazza?

@LP - (to your question many lages ago even though you only asked it last night...)..

Put it this way, if a person wants to work on sunday they should be allowed. That covers everyone who thinks people should be allowed to work on Sunday and allows people with their own business to work etc.

People should also be protected from being made to work on sunday. This is the main point, shops opening on a sunday would require people to staff them. As most of the chat on this thread seems to be about supermarkets etc (not privately owned business) that would mean the business owner (the CEO or whatever).. will not be working.

The big question is not who should be working or who we want to work on a sunday, but who wants to? Generaly private business who want to take advantage of the fatc that other poeple are not working (restaurants etc - grnted, there are chain restaurants owned by companies etc).

Who wants to lose that free day with their family etc? I dont want to, who here wants to work no a sunday?

All the questions regarding 'so you disagree with trains running on a sunday etc' are just going around the question of, if they let in sunday working hours, would employees have the option of saying 'actualy, I dont want to to lose my sunday so my big/large/huge firm can make ebe more cash'.

This is why I said that if anyone wants shops to open on a sunday, they should work in a shop on a sunday. Why the fuck should people lose their sunday just because some people work long hours (and want other to work around their working lives) and some poeple cannot plan to buy stuff they need.

The problems above are crap, its crap to have to work long hours/shifts etc. I used to work nights and that made shopping hard, however I managed on my days off and I did not expect the shops to open 24 hours so I could do my shopping on the way back from work at 6am in the morning.

Would it have been nice? Yes but someone else has to get up early enough to be at work for 6am for me to be able to shop. That means someone else has to have the same or worse working hours as myself. As i hated my working hours I would not want any one else to have to do them.

If firms had there way, everything would be open as long as they could make a profit or because they didnt want the shop down the street to make a profit. This is ok if you own your business, you are working for you.

If you work for a chain and are told one day..'ok, from next week its 24/7 - get used to it' - if you dont go along you will eventualy lose your job.

@ibellingham - the argument for sunday opening is thta people want other people to work on sunday as its convenient for them - thats just as crap as being told be the government what to do. The only difference in this case is that if the government is telling me not to work on sunday, no one makes any cash, some poeple have to plan ahead.

If I have to work on sunday I lose a day with the family, someone else makes cash.

Your last sentence sums up the problem - if sunday opening is allowed people wont have the choice to work, they will eventualy have to (if its as popular as people believe it will be and the shops are full to capacity. Assuming not everyone will have to work).

Eventualy perhaps sunday will just turn into another monday? Then we will all be complaining that we have no day to just sit and relax as our days off during the week move from week to week.

No thanks. If you want sunday shopping, take a job in a supermarket - thats way you can do all the shopping you like, after work. problem solved.

@Hazza - I have no problem with businesses opening as long as the owner is working as well.

Small town America wasn't killed by Walmart, it was killed by flight to larger poplations of educated workers and the death of american manufacturing.

As for mcdonalds - (He said restaraunt, not trans fat calorie filling station) - its a good example of how the evil chain can be open on a sunday without killing all the mom and pop restaraunts.

@cb6dba

So whats the difference between a bar and a grocery store? Do you work in a bar for a few hours if you swing by for a beer on sunday? I've worked as a waiter and bartender, if I told them I didnt want to work weekends they'd tell me to go fuck myself and find another job.

No and that's the point. Small independently run restaurants and bars still manage to survive despite the fact that trading in that industry is allowed on Sundays - and they have competitors such as McDonalds, Wiener Wald, etc.

How does that work?

Also: Firemen, Police, Cinemas, Municipalities, Medical and Health care, any service oriented business, etc. etc.

uh...being that more than 33% of German commerce is FOREIGN...they not only care, but have an absolute voice in the matter. but in reality, with Sunday pay scale wages, many businesses need to be reassured that they can more than make up the difference, in what they are spending on the day's operating costs.


Bullshit, Germans do not decide what they want, they only take what they are offered. Like I said, when those rare times that things are open on Sundays, they are packed.

Remember, the backwards German thinking is that "business drives commerce" rather that the REALITY the rest of the world practices: "consumers drive commerce"; that may be the reason why their best economic year in the past 15 years was an annual rate of 1.02%

I'm still trying to figure out why people eat at mcdonalds at all

Ironically, the only time I eat at McDonalds is on Sunday when I dont feel like eating at the gas station store.

Blimey o'reilly.

I'm actually starting to wonder what planet some people live on. No-one is 'forced' to work at any time. We all have choice. Hate your job, 'cos your boss 'forces' you to work on a Sunday? Go and get another job that means you can sit around on your arse on a Sunday - and let those who DO want to take that job do it instead and earn the extra cash.

I chose a job that I knew would mean working 60-70hr weeks. No-one forces me to do it, I could leave and do a shorter week if I wanted. I know, however, that working less time = less money, so I choose to do the extra hours.

Introduce Sunday opening properly and the workers will get paid a lot more per hour than normal hours (when it was introduced in the UK I was making 3 times what my friends were making for Saturday work - and I got to only work on a Sunday, meaning I got to go out all Saturday).

I agree totally with Chat_Capone - a country putting its hands over its eyes and saying "If I can't see you you can't see me" only works for so long.

Saying anything different ignores the Global reality that is around us in every other country that has adopted Sunday opening. Which countries have suffered economically? Which ones have become on average poorer? Who in those countries have less disposable income with which to do the things they really want to do?

As a German, I'm fine with closed shops on Sunday. I doubt that it would increase business. People don't have more disposable income just because they can shop on Sundays. For the longer shopping hours during week days (which are an improvement), shops employ more temp agency employees, who are not entitled to supplements for work after 8 pm. The same would happen with Sunday opening (supplements according to tarif contracts).

Not even the retail organisation HDE wants general liberalisation of Sunday opening, they are apparently content with 4 Sundays per year. The churches and unions are opposed to Sunday shopping. The churches lodged a complaint at the Constitutional Court against Berlin's allowance for shops to open on 10 Sundays per year (including the 4 Sundays of Advent): "Kirchen klagen gegen verkaufsoffene Sonntage", SZ, 12 Nov. 2007

I think the advantage of closed shops is a better quality of life for people who would otherwise be working for a measly wage. It is good to have days where life is a bit different from week days and where most people don't have to work, which means more chances of spending time together. Otherwise, why have public holidays at all? My guess is that more Sunday shopping will be introduced despite the resistance, but after a trial period will be reduced again for lack of demand (except in cities with more expats and other disorganised people ).

Uh, lots of people? When I was a teenager, I worked at one of those horribly decadent American supermarkets that was open all week long. They had no trouble finding people eager to work the Sunday shift. I loved it for the overtime pay.

Yeah I worked at a grocery store on sundays too. What a nightmare, I never saw my family or friends and they forced me at gunpoint to work 90 hour weeks. Down with corporations, lets bring back the general store so we can recreate the halcyon days of 1876.

Funny how the pro opening people are all about me me me and the anti opening people are all about society as a whole.

Funny how people make rampant overgeneralizations of people when they don't agree with their positions. Some of us don't buy that it benefits society as a whole, and if so are curious as to the hypocracy of arbitrarily allowing some institutions to open but forcing others to close.

I guess then that banks and post offices and government agencies and the stock market and everything else should be forced to stay open on weekends so "you" can use their services.

I will say it again, my German friends aren't all up in arms about Sunday's being closed, it is quite simply the expats that I hear all the bitching from because they want it like back home.

I live here because it isn't like back home and if it becomes like back home then I might as well just go live back home.

From the mouths of babes...unbelievable.

of course a German "doubts" anything that might be out of their narrow norm, they lack vision and vigor- hence why their biggest global firms are ran by non-germans. It takes thinking outside the box, progressive, broader thinking that drives the market. BENEFITS SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

again, this stupid, naive rationalization of "quality of life"...I ask you to refute the facts of "quality of life": minijobs, €400/month jobs, compared to neighboring countries the highest unemployment, continued rising costs of living and ridiculous taxation, Hartz Vier, cutting education budgets, cutting social programs, all the while making government bigger. Sounds like the "quality of life" is a theorectical concept, but doesnt exist - especially for those that have the dark reality of unemployment and those percentile that do not want to be unemployed (I know there are lazy, unmotivated losers that are perfectly fine with being spoon fed their life on the backs of others...another anomoly in the system that should be regulated). BENEFITS SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

Who gives a rat's ass about what some retail organization says? their findings are subjective rationalizing by their agenda. its total bullshit. The GEZ is another such org...full of crap.

Im sure a temp employ would take what they could get rather face the unemployment or social office. Dont speak for others without really understanding what many face in their daily lives...it cant be that "quality". Real social attitude there. BENEFITS SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

PEOPLE WORK ON SUNDAYS...it's a fact. So back to the "quality of life" bullshit theory...so some have it and others dont? So a policeman or wait staff arent entitled to this mystery "quality of life"? So this concept has a social ladder and seperation? Quality of life? why do so many frown and grump? BENEFITS SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

Sunday openings will come...I remember in the states when sunday openings were actually forbidden, it came eventually and there were always old fashioned, "if it aint broke" people who couldnt accept change. I vaguely remember, due to age, hearing the same whining arguments that didnt actually debate anything. As a result, more employment, more commerce, better economic stability. BENEFITS SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

Banks open for 1/2 day on Saturday, will obviously benefit those who are the main contributors, right? How many people that work during the week are the biggest bank customers? DUH!

Germans just have to get a bit more organized and sophisticated...some have, many are still living in 1958.

How about that "quality of life" actually becoming reality: meaning a virile economic structure that actually implements a minimum wage and get rid of all this bogus, bullshit, proven unsuccessful programs? How about regulating that Dieters dont ramble on their Handy's 24/7, disturbing others and make parents responsible for their rude, annoying and hyper-active children? Maybe my quality of life would be better if I didnt have to come in contact with so many rude, unsophisticated people grumping along, frowning, bumping into others without as much as an "excuse me". BENEFITS SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

I get the feeling that German government keeps trying to do, especially what Schröder's failure term produced, is just slap a simple bandage on a deep wound.

BENEFITS SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

Er, as opposed to 'no wage'? Like students who need that extra cash.

Society, er? Actually both groups care for the society! 'People who oppose' care for the old ways of an archaic society and 'people who want the shops open' care for a free society where everyone can choose and change (or remain as such).

EDIT: I hate generalizations, but could not resist the bait!
EDIT 2: @Capone, hear, hear!

@eurovol:

Yes because those things are all like grocery stores. (Once again, tell me why bars and restaraunts are different from grocery stores and why their workers should be forced to have soul crushing work on The Government Says You Must Rest Day)

But other people should share your opinions because it is currently the way YOU like it. Why are you all about yourself?

And a quick poll of the germans in my office showed 7 for sunday openings and 2 against. So I call your anecdotal evidence with some of my own.

In Cartagena you can buy prostitutes, cocaine and alcohol on Sundays IN THE CHURCH!!!

People being not being 'forced' to work I wonder what planet you live on. Your boss comes to you and says, I need you to work this sunday if you don't want to work this sunday i can always find someone else to do your job. You have a family to feed and jobs don't grow on trees what are you going to do? This is the basis of why we have a free day once a week.

If you also argue that people should be able to open their shops whenever they want and it should be free of government regulation. Why should they pay people more on Sunday isn't Sunday just like any other day of the week? If we say shops are only closed on Sunday because of the Church and Christians which is soo totally old fashioned. We should take the same reasoning with the extra pay, why should the Government force me to pay workers more just because it's a christian holy day?

He is very TAFF, he will tell his boss to fuck off and walk away. And he is sooo valuable employee that he will be working in a new company on Monday and making more money than before.

Truly God's country.

This is like asking why don't waiters get a lunch break at lunchtime. Their is no real point in opening a bar from nine to five, monday through Friday is their?

Many bars are open 7 nights a week (shit the reeperbahn here is pretty much 24/7) - when do their employees get a chance to rest?

You are too young to remember it is for the same damn reasons certain places were deemed to be "necessities" when the same laws were present in the States. Just cause you don't understand it doesn't mean that there isn't a real reason for the odd exceptions that promote society over the individual. You don't throw a rule out because there are allowable exceptions. That is just stupid.

New legislation for Berlin
On 9 November 2006, the parliament of the city state of Berlin passed a new Shop Opening Hours Act (Ladenöffnungsgesetz (145Kb PDF)), introduced by the centre-left coalition government of the Social Democratic Party (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands, SPD) and the socialist party DieLinke.PDS. The new law allows shops to open 24 hours a day from Monday to Saturday. Shops can also open on the four Sundays in Advent (four weeks preceding Christmas) from 13.00 to 20.00, except when the fourth Sunday falls on 24 December. In addition, shops may be permitted to open on a further four Sundays if it is deemed to be in the public interest. Two more Sundays can be added on special occasions, such as for street carnivals or companies’ anniversaries. In total, therefore, Berlin retailers may be allowed to open for up to 10 Sundays a year.

The law stipulates that employees shall not work for more than two Sundays in Advent and that, under certain circumstances, single parents may be exempt from Sunday and late night working should they so wish. Extended shop opening hours are possible at airports, train stations and petrol stations as had already been the case.

other regions are following suit

update: berlin will be deciding to life sunday restrictions due to retailers reporting high traffic/profits.

And just because you assert it is good for society doesn't make it so. Just because it is the status quo does not mean that it is intregal to preserving society. Please enlighten me as to this nebulous reason why bars and restaraunts are so inherintly different that they can be open on sundays and a grocer cannot? Or is it easier to just vaguely talk down to someone because you are older and thus wiser?

The causes of the many problems in America are a bit more complex than being able to buy a loaf of bread on a sunday.

At the end of the day its their country and they can do what they want - but I reserve the right to bitch about things that annoy me and this is my biggest pet peeve of living here.

uh, science throws "rules (theories)" out when their are exceptions. You cant have a fact, when its proven wrong only once in some exception. Or is it the "i before e, except after c" rule?

in this case, who decides what is best for the masses and what those exceptions are, even when a notable percentage differs? its all subjective and that is a FACT!

As I have posted, I enjoy my Sundays and most Saturdays avoiding high traffic areas, except beaches ;-)...however, my personal preference and desires to not stand in the way of greater society.

Politics is not science, again a stupid irrelevant non-comparison, and the people have decided via their votes. Don't like it, move to a Country where your opinion is shared by the populous and made into law. Democracy, got to love it!

Ah the ole "if you disagree with something about the country you are residing in, get out!" Spoken like a true republican. I'm going to order you a 'freedom isn't free' t-shirt.

errrr...Poltical Science is not a science? It falls under social sciences. Wow, stupid irrelevant comparison or relevant factual based comparison, huh? again, who voted? Germany is a republic, not a common-wealth, so no, the masses do not decide.

By the way, the "love it or leave it" argument is always used when their is no intelligent debate offered by the user. Nice.

Btw, uh, according to legistlatures and voters, Sundays are opening! (looks like you will be packing your bags to find somewhere to hermit without any commerce driving you nuts)

REAL democracy, not autocracy...we love it!

next?

As someone whose worthless piece of paper is in poli-sci, no - social sciences are significantly different than hard sciences.

@Kreig: Not sure what TAFF means, but I hope you will enlighten me.

Basically this whole thing comes down to one point; who should decide what is right for everyone? In this case, its the Government, the Church and conservative opinion deciding - not a fair cross section of society. Are we comfortable with that?

opinion and semantics. Still, your degree is worth more than you think.

Political science does not use the scientific method and it is a Bachelor of the Arts instead of Bachelor of Science..

um not really the exceptions that allow society to work overall in a better way. As in being fair to people who work in shops and people who work office jobs. While also allowing for essential services. The point about Restaurants and bars opening at different times than shops and offices is really an illogical argument to make for the allowance of shopping on Sunday. As I tried to point out before if bars and restaurants only opened while shops and offices were open they wouldn't make much money would they. Which is also the reason why shops stay open later than a lot of offices.

here lies the hypocrisy: government and church in the same sentence?

Germany needs to get on board with their global agreements with the EU, the UN, the Helsinki Accord and oh yeah, their own constitution.