TT logo
You are viewing a low-graphics version of this page. Click the headline to view full version:

U.S. Presidential Election 2008

McCain-Palin vs. Obama-Biden

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > Themes > International affairs
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152
eurovol
QUOTE (cinzia @ Sep 3 2008, 4:34 pm) *
Obama is not anywhere near the quality of the other Democrats you mentioned, in my own opinion. McCain would have been strong 8 years ago, but the same cult of personality phenomenon we're seeing this year swept Bush in to the nomination, instead.

That is your opinion and you are just pissed because Clinton lost. Obama is soo much stronger than Mondale or Dukakis that it is not even funny. Gary Hart should have been the nominee, but first the supers picked the wrong horse in '84 (like Clinton hoped for in '08) and second he couldn't get away from a sex scandal in '88 (like Clinton did in '92). laugh.gif
Jules Winnfield
You know what? I have been hearing people rant hysterically about Fox News for ages and I simply never watched it. Out of curiosity, and especially as I got sick of the regular media outlets pathetically kissing Obama's ass, I started to watch it occasionally a few months ago. What I noticed is that many of the anchors are biased and they undoubtedly push certain stories (immigration, military, law and order, etc.) in order to cater to their viewers, but apart from that, it's just a fucking television station! When I don't want to watch it or think that someone is talking crap, I take that small battery operated device called a remote control and switch channels!? As if anyone is ever forced to watch it. rolleyes.gif
Jules Winnfield
QUOTE (eurovol @ Sep 3 2008, 5:14 pm) *
Obama is soo much stronger than Mondale or Dukakis that it is not even funny.

I think that was agreed in the original exchange. If you think that Obama is a stronger candidate than Clinton, Gore or Kennedy, you should really start posting on that "Where to buy illegal drugs in Munich - Particularly marijuana" thread, because it shows that you know a lot more about hallucinogens than politics.
thefirelane
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Sep 3 2008, 5:14 pm) *
they undoubtedly push certain stories (immigration, military, law and order, etc.) in order to cater to their viewers, but apart from that, it's just a fucking television station!

Then you don't know much about Fox News. They argued in court (and sadly, won) that the FCC mandate to report truthfully has no legal enforcement. In other words, they argued that the right to freedom of speech allows them to lie.

This lawsuit was in regards to them wanting to change the facts regarding a report on Bovine Growth Hormone in order to kowtow to it's corporate producer instead of better informing the public on the facts.
cinzia
eurovol, you are so invested in making me into a bitter Hillary supporter, it's ridiculous. Again, practice what you preach about calling for non-partisanship, and apply it to your own party.

I can comprehend that Bill and Hillary Clinton are not the same person. Can you?
Jules Winnfield
Then what does that say about Dan Rather and CBS News? I mean, come on. You just have to take these news sources for what they are worth and remember that we ultimately are going to want to watch what we want to hear anyway.
Expaticus
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Sep 3 2008, 5:14 pm) *
You know what? I have been hearing people rant hysterically about Fox News for ages and I simply never watched it. Out of curiosity, and especially as I got sick of the regular media outlets pathetically kissing Obama's ass, I started to watch it occasionally a few months ago. What I noticed is that many of the anchors are biased and they undoubtedly push certain stories in order to cater to their viewers, but apart from that, it's just a fucking television station! When I don't want to watch it or think that someone is talking crap, I take that small battery operated device called a remote control and switch channels!? As if anyone is ever forced to watch it.

My parents hate it, but have never seen it because they don't have cable and there isn't a local Fox outlet on VHF.

They know they should hate it because they listen exclusively to NPR, watch PBS, and read Mother Jones ... who keep telling them Fox News is spelled with a swastika for the "x".

I've watched it, and I think it's bombastic, unprofessional and not my style ... but I still think German public TV news is 10x more left-wing propagandized than Fox is right-wing propagandized.
yanksavage
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Sep 3 2008, 11:20 am) *
I think that was agreed in the original exchange. If you think that Obama is a stronger candidate than Clinton, Gore or Kennedy, you should really start posting on that "Where to buy illegal drugs in Munich - Particularly marijuana" thread, because it shows that you know a lot more about hallucinogens than politics.

Hate to do this, but I will agree with eurovol. Obama is polling over 50%. Clinton won the presidency with less than that, therefore eurovol is in fact correct. (Don't get used to me supporting you eurovol this is a one time deal)
Jules Winnfield
Kerry was polling at 50% at this stage in 2004.

By candidate strength, I am referring to resumes, and there's no way that Nobama's come anywhere near to the three politicians in my post.

QUOTE (Expaticus @ Sep 3 2008, 5:26 pm) *
but I still think German public TV news is 10x more left-wing propagandized than Fox is right-wing propagandized.

It's much more subtely nuanced and very sneakily biased. I agree. The thing that drives me nuts here is that you don't have a choice - you have to pay for this whether you like it or not.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 4:14 pm) *
As for hate, I would say the hate some people have for Christians is evidenced by what is being directed at Palin.

. . . . what about her "hatred" of gay people and her denial of a woman's right to choose?Right wing evangelical Christians are not derided (nb few liberals actually 'hate' christians as many of us actually are religious) for being followers of Jesus they are attacked because their views support a politics of hatred that denies rights to anyone that does not fit their narrowminded agenda.
eurovol
QUOTE (cinzia @ Sep 3 2008, 5:25 pm) *
Can you?

Can you comprehend that I am tired of your constantly belittling Obama! It is your own sour grapes posted numerous times that leads me to that one conclusion. Obama is the best candidate because he won a hard fought battle. He won. It wasn't given to him. He won. He won outright, fair and square. What more do you want him to do? Gravel at your feet? The choice is clear; either it is McCain or it is Obama. Who do you want to see win? And you don't have any other choices if you want to be on the winning team. It is not like Obama's platform is any different than Hillary's. Either you get over it and move on, or you continue to spread that insidious message of yours to the detriment of yourself and the rest of us. It is that plain and simple or do you want to see a Supreme Court that overturns a woman's right to privacy, legislates family values straight from the church pulpit and thinks force is the only solution to any problem? Keep it up and that is exactly what you are going to get. Happy Birthday!

EDIT: That goes for you too Jules and the rest of you wishy washy self proclaimed Dems.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Sep 3 2008, 4:20 pm) *
If you think that Obama is a stronger candidate than Clinton, Gore or Kennedy . . .

well I actually said Obama stands good comparison to those three. What I meant was "at this stage". It is surely specious to make direct comparisons between candidates and former office holders based on their period in office. I do not see at all why anyone could say that Obama is a worse candidate than Gore was in 2000, Clinton in 1992 and Kennedy in 1960.
Conquistador
BTC, as I understand it she has gay friends. Does not sound like someone who hates gays. Palin is opposed to abortion, yes, but as I understand it, that is her value system (protection of unborn life).

eurovol, that is, IMHO, a pathetic attempt at scaring people into voting for Obama.
Expaticus
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Sep 3 2008, 5:28 pm) *
It's much more subtely nuanced and very sneakily biased. I agree. The thing that drives me nuts here is that you don't have a choice - you have to pay for this whether you like it or not.

Sometimes it's not so subtle. Watch the "children's news" on Arte some time ... it's like a modern-day Der Sturmer of anti-american bile.

As I always say, imaging a PBS fund drive with the force of law! The Germans really do have some things completely sussed smile.gif
sgt.schmitty
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Sep 3 2008, 5:26 pm) *
Then what does that say about Dan Rather and CBS News? I mean, come on. You just have to take these news sources for what they are worth and remember that we ultimately are going to want to watch what we want to hear anyway.

sheesh, ain't that the truth!

just stating the facts here...
eurovol
QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 5:42 pm) *
eurovol, that is, IMHO, a pathetic attempt at scaring people into voting for Obama.

Coming from you, thanks for the compliment. wink.gif
cinzia
eurovol, winning the nomination doesn't make Obama the best candidate. It makes him the most popular one. BIG difference.

Guess what? I'm just as tired of you constantly belittling Hillary. Nobody brought up Hillary today till you did. This is your obsession, not mine.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 4:42 pm) *
BTC, as I understand it she has gay friends. Does not sound like someone who hates gays. Palin is opposed to abortion, yes, but as I understand it, that is her value system (protection of unborn life).

she has consistently supported a federal ban on gay marriage and would also have banned gay partners having any spousal rights in Alaska had her legal advice not been that such a move wold have been unconstitutional. In 2006 when asked whether she supported the state supreme court's ruling giving gay couples spousal benefits she wrote “No, I believe spousal benefits are reserved for married citizens as defined in our constitution.”

Most of the ghgay press are under no illusions that she is the most homo-antipathetic candidate for the vice presidency in recent meory. She might have gay friends (so did Mrs Thatcher, who brought in a raft of anti-gay legislation in the UK) but she is no friend of gay rights.

And on abortion she is at least more philosphically consistent than McCain on the issue - she opposes abortion of any kind for whatever reason. I guess that also means she is opposed to IVF and stem cells too, as it is consistent with her purported religious convictions, though I cannot find any reference to that. And frankly excusing that as "her value system" sounds similar to the Baluchistan MP who recently defended burying women alive as part of the Baluchi "value system".
mgr
QUOTE (Source unspecified)
Palin Blames Daughter's Pregnancy on Media

Demands That Media Marry Bristol

Coming out on the offensive after a day of controversy, presumptive GOP
vice-presidential nominee Sarah Palin said today that the media was to
blame for making her daughter Bristol pregnant.

Possible copyright infringement removed by admin. See guidelines.
jml
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Sep 3 2008, 4:26 pm) *
we ultimately are going to want to watch what we want to hear anyway.

Ron-Paul-a-Palooza!!!

Jesse Ventura 2012. Ugh. Jesse better wait his turn after Arnold.
cinzia
And those policies are what make people like my father-in-law jump for joy over Palin. BTC.

Though FIL is a veteran, he didn't like McCain because he bought the line that he's not conservative enough. (FIL worked for Romney in the primaries.) FIL is Catholic. So Palin is a gift from god, as far as FIL is concerned. He's also a middle-aged divorcee who hasn't gotten any for years, so make of that what you will.
murphy
Another clever politician with the IQ of a fishcake heading to the whitehouse dear me..what a sad reflection
Expaticus
This is a spoof ... which should perhaps be merged with the big election thread.
sgt.schmitty
QUOTE (cinzia @ Sep 3 2008, 5:52 pm) *
winning the nomination doesn't make Obama the best candidate. It makes him the most popular one. BIG difference.

i may be just living for the moment here, but i DO think Obama is indeed the best public candidate...

i personally don't trust McCain further than i could throw him - and he's turned into one of Bush's bitches
i also don't trust the beauty queen either - too religious for my taste...

i may just "hear what i want to hear", but i really think that when people speak, they trip over their own words all the time. remember what i stated yesterday about Mark Twain and public speakers?

when someone says something, i don't pick out words and re-interpret them like all them dickheads on the youtube picking peoples' statements apart...

"proof that Obama is predjudice" or "McCain hates black people because he said this word"...

lighten up Francis!
sgt.schmitty
QUOTE (cinzia @ Sep 3 2008, 5:59 pm) *
And those policies are what make people like my father-in-law jump for joy over Palin.

Though FIL is a veteran, he didn't like McCain because he bought the line that he's not conservative enough. (FIL worked for Romney in the primaries.) FIL is Catholic. So Palin is a gift from god, as far as FIL is concerned. He's also a middle-aged divorcee who hasn't gotten any for years, so make of that what you will.

schaschush! talk about worst-case scenarios!

even my own parents still "do that"...

matter of fact, i don't wanna know what they think. they'll just tell me how predjudice Obama is and how everyone in American says Michelle is a complete bitch...

that'll get my blood boiling right there!!
Conquistador
QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Sep 3 2008, 5:55 pm) *
she has consistently supported a federal ban on gay marriage and would also have banned gay partners having any spousal rights in Alaska had her legal advice not been that such a move wold have been unconstitutional. In 2006 when asked whether she supported the state supreme court's ruling giving gay couples spousal benefits she wrote “No, I believe spousal benefits are reserved for married citizens as defined in our constitution.”

I am aware that she is not a supporter of same sex marriage (neither is your preferred candidate, Barack Obama) which, AFAIK, is banned by law in the Alaskan Constitution, which logically means same sex couples cannot have spousal rights (although the right to inherit and to make medical decisions can obviously be dealt with by separate legislation).

QUOTE
Most of the ghgay press are under no illusions that she is the most homo-antipathetic candidate for the vice presidency in recent meory. She might have gay friends (so did Mrs Thatcher, who brought in a raft of anti-gay legislation in the UK) but she is no friend of gay rights.

The gay press, as you put it, are political activists on these issues. Understand that it is a difference of opinion.

QUOTE
And on abortion she is at least more philosphically consistent than McCain on the issue - she opposes abortion of any kind for whatever reason. I guess that also means she is opposed to IVF and stem cells too, as it is consistent with her purported religious convictions, though I cannot find any reference to that. And frankly excusing that as "her value system" sounds similar to the Baluchistan MP who recently defended burying women alive as part of the Baluchi "value system".

Nothing needs to be excused. It is what she believes. It is legal to have your own value system, no? At any rate, you yourself state her positions are consistent with her religious convictions, i.e., her value system. And her value system is not comparable to your hyperbolic example, not least because of her defense of the lives of the innocent, which you bizarrely and illogically liken to killing people to bury them alive.

BTC, your positions are the polar opposite of hers. I think you should respect the fact that she disagrees with you. Every person has the right to their own opinion.
eurovol
QUOTE (cinzia @ Sep 3 2008, 5:52 pm) *
eurovol, winning the nomination doesn't make Obama the best candidate.

In this election, it most certainly does and this is where your Clinton prejudice constantly shows (I consider the source, not just recent words or lack thereof). This was not a gimme election like I have seen in the past (umm Mondale, Kerry). The last election that was this much rough and tumble was '92 when Bill won and at least the competition had the good sense to get out post Wisconsin.

Face it, the Clinton primary rhetoric was wrong on all counts. Obama is experienced and has the skills to be President. In my mind, legislative experience is the meat and potatoes of Government and that goes double for a State like Illinois. My father was a State Legislator for 6 years and I can gaurantee you that he has more experience than Palin does, but no where near what Obama does.

Palin is the closest thing to trailer trash since well Dubya! We seriously can't go down that road again.
Conquistador
Eurovol hits a new low (by calling Palin trailer trash).
Jules Winnfield
QUOTE (eurovol @ Sep 3 2008, 6:14 pm) *
'92 when Bill won and at least the competition had the good sense to get out post Wisconsin.

The competition was no where near as strong, and this isn't entirely true anyway, as Jerry Brown campaigned until the very end.

QUOTE
My father was a State Legislature for 6 years

Why didn't he pass a law requiring the children of public officials to understand the difference between legislature and legislator? laugh.gif

QUOTE
Palin is the closest thing to trailer trash since well Dubya!

You mean lower income voters? You mean the ones Obama was completely inept at winning over during his faultless primary campaign?
Conquistador
Apparently eurovol thought Pa Eurovol was a one-man legislature! laugh.gif
Lorelei
This whole thing shows the hypocricy of the so-called "pro-lifers". Palin's daughter is being held up as a heroine for having her baby and Palin is being held up as a heroine for having a Down's Syndrome child (Palin is apparently to be congratulated for this, according to a Republican official interviewed on the BBC World Service). If the "pro-lifers" really considered illegitimate kids or handicapped kids to be of equal value to "legitimate" or "normal" kids, they wouldn't feel the need to make the parents out to be saints for not aborting them.
cinzia
It is people like eurovol, much more than the candidate himself, who puts me off Obama.
cinzia
That's a really great point, Lorelei.

Although I suppose you could argue that the greater difficulties inherent in raising a child with a disability, or as a single parent, is the moralist position here.

Some people also feel it's not just an argument of have the baby = right and abort the baby = wrong. Children with severe disabilities put a strain on marriages and can have a negative impact on the other children in a family (through no fault of their own), so it can be argued that for some families, aborting would be a better thing to do. But of course the Christian viewpoint is that everything is God's will, so you are going against it any time you abort a pregnancy.
eurovol
Are you that shallow?
eurovol
From an Alaskan that knows the GOP VP choice personally and makes for interesting reading to say the least:

QUOTE
ABOUT SARAH PALIN

I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992.
Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a
first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her
father was my child's favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a
first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more
City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the
residents of the city.

She is enormously popular; in every way she’s like the most popular
girl in middle school. Even men who think she is a poor choice and
won't vote for her can't quit smiling when talking about her because
she is a "babe".

It is astonishing and almost scary how well she can keep a secret. She
kept her most recent pregnancy a secret from her children and parents
for seven months.

She is "pro-life". She recently gave birth to a Down's syndrome baby.
There is no cover-up involved, here; Trig is her baby.

She is energetic and hardworking. She regularly worked out at the gym.

She is savvy. She doesn't take positions; she just "puts things out
there" and if they prove to be popular, then she takes credit.

Her husband works a union job on the North Slope for BP and is a
champion snowmobile racer. Todd Palin’s kind of job is highly
sought-after because of the schedule and high pay. He arranges his
work schedule so he can fish for salmon in Bristol Bay for a month or
so in summer, but by no stretch of the imagination is fishing their
major source of income. Nor has her life-style ever been anything
like that of native Alaskans.

Sarah and her whole family are avid hunters.

She's smart.

Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000
(at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about
670,000 residents.

During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running
this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been
pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had
gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had
given rise to a recall campaign.

Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6
years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over
33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the
City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation
(1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a
regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she
promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they
benefited residents.

The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration
weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed
money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it
with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage
the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said
she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a
new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a
multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece
of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was
still in litigation 7 yrs later--to the delight of the lawyers
involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the
community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it
would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that
could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing.

While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office
redecorated more than once.

These are small numbers, but Wasilla is a very small city.

As an oil producer, the high price of oil has created a budget surplus
in Alaska. Rather than invest this surplus in technology that will
make us energy independent and increase efficiency, as Governor she
proposed distribution of this surplus to every individual in the state.

In this time of record state revenues and budget surpluses, she
recommended that the state borrow/bond for road projects, even while
she proposed distribution of surplus state revenues: spend today's
surplus, borrow for needs.

She’s not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideas
or compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by
her or her staff. Ideas weren’t evaluated on their merits, but on the
basis of who proposed them.

While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected
City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from
the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents
rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's
attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew
her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the
Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.

Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for
Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of "old boys". Palin
fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as
Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people,
creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally
grateful and fiercely loyal--loyal to the point of abusing their power
to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the
case of pressuring the State’s top cop (see below).

As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla’s Police Chief because he “intimidated”
her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska's top
cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure
and she had every legal right to fire him, but it's pretty clear that
an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn't
fire her sister's ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation
for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen
contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she
later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to
replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded
for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew
her support.

She has bitten the hand of every person who extended theirs to her in
help. The City Council person who personally escorted her around town
introducing her to voters when she first ran for Wasilla City Council
became one of her first targets when she was later elected Mayor. She
abruptly fired her loyal City Administrator; even people who didn’t
like the guy were stunned by this ruthlessness.

Fear of retribution has kept all of these people from saying anything
publicly about her.

When then-Governor Murkowski was handing out political plums, Sarah got
the best, Chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: one
of the few jobs not in Juneau and one of the best paid. She had no
background in oil & gas issues. Within months of scoring this great
job which paid $122,400/yr, she was complaining in the press about the
high salary. I was told that she hated that job: the commute, the
structured hours, the work. Sarah became aware that a member of this
Commission (who was also the State Chair of the Republican Party)
engaged in unethical behavior on the job. In a gutsy move which some
undoubtedly cautioned her could be political suicide, Sarah solved all
her problems in one fell swoop: got out of the job she hated and
garnered gobs of media attention as the patron saint of ethics and as a
gutsy fighter against the “old boys’ club” when she dramatically quit,
exposing this man’s ethics violations (for which he was fined).

As Mayor, she had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from
Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel
politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the “bridge to
nowhere” after it became clear that it would be unwise not to.

As Governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget
guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing
projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative
action restored most of these projects--which had been vetoed simply
because she was not aware of their importance--but with the unobservant
she had gained a reputation as “anti-pork”.

She is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party
leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated
them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a
fiscal conservative.

Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah.
They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and
predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly
stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made
point guard on the high school basketball team. When Sarah's
mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and
experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.

As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package
of legislation known as “AGIA” that forced the oil companies to march
to the beat of her drum.

Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife
Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked to
global warming. She campaigned “as a private citizen” against a state
initiaitive that would have either a) protected salmon streams from
pollution from mines, or B) tied up in the courts all mining in the
state (depending on who you listen to). She has pushed the State’s
lawsuit against the Dept. of the Interior’s decision to list polar
bears as threatened species.

McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a
heartbeat away from being President.

There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more
knowledgeable and experienced than she.

However, there’s a lot of people who have underestimated her and are
regretting it.

CLAIM VS FACT
•“Hockey mom”: true for a few years
•“PTA mom”: true years ago when her first-born was in elementary
school, not since
•“NRA supporter”: absolutely true
•social conservative: mixed. Opposes gay marriage, BUT vetoed a bill
that would have denied benefits to employees in same-sex relationships
(said she did this because it was unconsitutional).
•pro-creationism: mixed. Supports it, BUT did nothing as Governor to
promote it.
•“Pro-life”: mixed. Knowingly gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby
BUT declined to call a special legislative session on some pro-life
legislation
•“Experienced”: Some high schools have more students than Wasilla has
residents. Many cities have more residents than the state of Alaska.
No legislative experience other than City Council. Little hands-on
supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city
administrator to run town of about 5,000.
•political maverick: not at all
•gutsy: absolutely!
•open & transparent: ??? Good at keeping secrets. Not good at
explaining actions.
•has a developed philosophy of public policy: no
•”a Greenie”: no. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores
and disconnected parking lots. Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWR.
•fiscal conservative: not by my definition!
•pro-infrastructure: No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city
without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built
streets to early 20th century standards.
•pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on
residents
•pro-small government: No. Oversaw greatest expansion of city
government in Wasilla’s history.
•pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union
doesn’t make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim
that she is pro-labor/pro-union.

WHY AM I WRITING THIS?

First, I have long believed in the importance of being an informed
voter. I am a voter registrar. For 10 years I put on student voting
programs in the schools. If you google my name (Anne Kilkenny +
Alaska), you will find references to my participation in local
government, education, and PTA/parent organizations.

Secondly, I've always operated in the belief that "Bad things happen
when good people stay silent". Few people know as much as I do because
few have gone to as many City Council meetings.

Third, I am just a housewife. I don't have a job she can bump me out
of. I don't belong to any organization that she can hurt. But, I am no
fool; she is immensely popular here, and it is likely that this will
cost me somehow in the future: that’s life.

Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100
or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah's
attempt at censorship.

Fifth, I looked around and realized that everybody else was afraid to
say anything because they were somehow vulnerable.

CAVEATS
I am not a statistician. I developed the numbers for the increase in
spending & taxation 2 years ago (when Palin was running for Governor)
from information supplied to me by the Finance Director of the City of
Wasilla, and I can't recall exactly what I adjusted for: did I adjust
for inflation? for population increases? Right now, it is impossible
for a private person to get any info out of City Hall--they are
swamped. So I can't verify my numbers.

You may have noticed that there are various numbers circulating for the
population of Wasilla, ranging from my "about 5,000", up to 9,000. The
day Palin’s selection was announced a city official told me that the
current population is about 7,000. The official 2000 census count was
5,460. I have used about 5,000 because Palin was Mayor from 1996 to
2002, and the city was growing rapidly in the mid-90’s.

Anne
August 31, 2008
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 5:09 pm) *
I am aware that she is not a supporter of same sex marriage (neither is your preferred candidate, Barack Obama)

Barack Obama has NEVER supported a federal ban on gay marriage and never will. He also supports civil unions, something that Palin supposedly opposes, and he has previously been a consistent supporter of gay rights legislation in Illinois. Palin on the other hand has used the denial of gay issues as a rallying cry for the religious right.

QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 5:09 pm) *
which, AFAIK, is banned by law in the Alaskan Constitution, which logically means same sex couples cannot have spousal rights (although the right to inherit and to make medical decisions can obviously be dealt with by separate legislation).

I think you are confused. A case had been brought to the Alaska Supreme Court where there was an eventual ruling that gay spouses should have equivalent spousal rights to heterosexual couples. Palin supported a referendum calling on the supreme court ruling to be overturned. However, despite the fact that the referendum got a majority and the bill had been submitted, Palin had to veto it because she was advised that to pass the legislation was now unconstitutional. Which makes it all the more laughable that the Log Cabin Republicans are now unbelievably claiming that her veto is an example of how she has positively legislated in favour of gay rights.

QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 5:09 pm) *
The gay press, as you put it, are political activists on these issues.

!!! And I bet you think gay people are biassed on this "issue" too. The gay press actually spans political opinion from left to right and always has. Some are gay activists but most are not.

QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 5:09 pm) *
Understand that it is a difference of opinion.

eh? I never said it wasn't. If I was black and she was a racist do you think I should respectfully excuse it because her "religion" told her to hate black people?

I can understand her position but I reserve the right to disagree with it as trenchantly as I can.

QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 5:09 pm) *
Nothing needs to be excused. It is what she believes. It is legal to have your own value system, no? At any rate, you yourself state her positions are consistent with her religious convictions, i.e., her value system.

look if she was just sarah palin from down the road then yes I would probably excuse her bizarre religious views as just that. However, she is a candidate for the vice presidency who will be second in line to be leader of the free world behind a frail pensioner - I think that entitles gay americans and those of us who take an interest in these things to be very alarmed by her candidacy.

QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 5:09 pm) *
And her value system is not comparable to your hyperbolic example, not least because of her defense of the lives of the innocent, which you bizarrely and illogically liken to killing people to bury them alive.

It was you who claimed that one should excuse her views on abortion as they were based on her "value system". I was just pointing out that a similar (and equally reduntant) justification had recently been used to excuse burying women alive. Personally, I find it appalling when any politician uses their religion to impose their value system on people who do not follow that religion.

QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 5:09 pm) *
BTC, your positions are the polar opposite of hers. I think you should respect the fact that she disagrees with you. Every person has the right to their own opinion.

If she campaigns on a political platform and puts forward ideas for legislation she should expect those to be challenged and debated. I really do not see why you seem to think everyone who disagrees with her should just zip up and sa "well she can't help it because of her beliefs and I should just respect that and stay quiet". Sheesh!
cinzia
QUOTE (eurovol @ Sep 3 2008, 6:45 pm) *
Are you that shallow?

No. You're that repugnant.
moctoj2
Euroval, thanks for Anne's letter. Eyes wide open, that woman. I want to give her a hug for spelling it out.
spatown
QUOTE (cinzia @ Sep 3 2008, 4:34 pm) *
B the same cult of personality phenomenon we're seeing this year swept Bush in to the nomination, instead.

Excuse me, what personality???

QUOTE (Conquistador @ Sep 3 2008, 5:14 pm) *
As for hate, I would say the hate some people have for Christians is evidenced by what is being directed at Palin.

That is such a rubbish statement. The woman is being judged on her own personality and abilities or not as the case may be - why muddle it up with Christianity?

QUOTE (eurovol @ Sep 3 2008, 6:46 pm) *
From an Alaskan that knows the GOP VP choice personally and makes for interesting reading to say the least:

That is an absolutely flabbergasting report. It sounds very convincing - and those pieces would appear to fit into the jigsaw. I wonder if it is. huh.gif
mlovett
QUOTE (eurovol @ Sep 3 2008, 5:46 pm) *
From an Alaskan that knows the GOP VP choice personally and makes for interesting reading to say the least:

link, please?
eurovol
QUOTE (cinzia @ Sep 3 2008, 7:00 pm) *
No. You're that repugnant.

That settles it, shallow and apparently a bit of a grudge holder. I am a DEMOCRAT, not a Repugnant and it is not my fault Hillary LOST! None of these things makes Obama less than he is, but your constant belittling of him does in the minds of many. You need to realize that!
yanksavage
Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100
or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah's
attempt at censorship.

Looks like petty payback
eurovol
QUOTE (mlovett @ Sep 3 2008, 7:18 pm) *
link, please?

Read the letter and do the googling yourself. I am not posting her email address. Although, it is probably swamped or shut down by now.
eurovol
QUOTE (yanksavage @ Sep 3 2008, 7:19 pm) *
Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100
or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah's
attempt at censorship.

Looks like petty payback

Looks like transparency to me. She had the courage to say it and let it stand on its own. Seems you judge a bit too carelessly based on less than you know about Sarah Palin herself. You want a hot babe, then elect Paris Hilton. I got a video link to her candidacy if you want it.
Kommentarlos
QUOTE (eurovol @ Sep 3 2008, 7:22 pm) *
You want a hot babe, then elect Paris Hilton. I got a video link to her candidacy if you want it.

I think I posted the link to that a couple of hundred pages back on this thread.

You have got to admit - she does have good hair and her new hair extensions look super. A clear winner.
mlovett
QUOTE (eurovol @ Sep 3 2008, 6:20 pm) *
Read the letter and do the googling yourself. I am not posting her email address. Although, it is probably swamped or shut down by now.

Didn't realize it was an email, sheesh! You didn't mention the source, surprising, from a scientist. tsk tsk.
yanksavage
QUOTE (eurovol @ Sep 3 2008, 1:22 pm) *
Looks like transparency to me. She had the courage to say it and let it stand on its own. Seems you judge a bit too carelessly based on less than you know about Sarah Palin herself. You want a hot babe, then elect Paris Hilton. I got a video link to her candidacy if you want it.

You are just angry because Palin has more experience than Obama
MonksTown
QUOTE (yanksavage @ Sep 3 2008, 7:34 pm) *
Palin has more experience than Obama

I'm not sure she has?

It's not her experience or lack of it that turn me off.
It's her politics which are positively repugnant.
Expaticus
QUOTE (mlovett @ Sep 3 2008, 7:28 pm) *
Didn't realize it was an email, sheesh! You didn't mention the source, surprising, from a scientist. tsk tsk.

Take the first sentence, quote it, and jam it into google. You get c. 20 hits. including the identical text and the name of the author who issued this from a Hotmail account.

It could be real, but looks a bit like that Kurt Vonnegut "Wear Sunscreen" thing at first glance.
Kommentarlos
QUOTE (MonksTown @ Sep 3 2008, 7:40 pm) *
It's not her experience or lack of it that turn me off.

Shouldn't this be in Adult Chat?
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152
You are viewing a low fidelity version of this page. Click to view the full page.