U.S. Presidential Election 2008

While I agree that PM would have been more appropriate (note that I have pointed out repeatedly to horseshoe that his "personal posts" were off-topic) horseshoe is the one that has decided to make them public, thus necessitating a public response.


We'll see about that...

Not as much as you do, First Citizen

As to the pregnancy of Palin's daughter, I don't see it as a scandal. And I doubt that religious people are as incensed as some Democrats seem to be on this thread. James Dobson, a prominent conservative, recently endorsed the Republican ticket, whereas until Palin joined as VP nominee, he had withheld his support. If her daughter had decided to get an abortion, it would have been far more of an issue.

You know, I'm actually kind of glad that we are going to have this national debate as part of the presidential campaign, though I'm sorry for Sarah Palin that she volunteered her family to be the spark to ignite it.

We can all get this discussion about abortion, abstinence-only sex education, teen pregnancy and teen marriage out of the way, and maybe the dragon will be slain for ever and ever, and nobody will have to be painted as a hypocrite or Schadenfreuder ever again.

I thought this election was going to be about women and racial minorities. HA!

Politics in the US are different. It doesn't mean that, "America is so backward compared to the rest of the world, particularly europe", because of it. Apart from the fact that there are places around the world and even in Europe where religion is still a factor politically (ever heard of a place called Bavaria?).


Except that if Republicans were doing this to a Democratic candidate you'd be scandalized.

Who's whining? You forget, Palin's own community was rightly suspicious ... check post 2849. So to even assume that Obama's Camp was behind this when it became suspect long before (AND McCain was well aware of it).. is a real stretch, even for the Republicans. But I understand, anything to try to get a one up...

What influence should it have on Palin, Jules? At the very least, how about as evidence that abstinence-only sex ed, which Palin and McCain support, is maybe not working so well?

The venom is coming mainly from Obama's foot soldiers, I never said that it was his campaign per se.


I think the idea behind abstinence is to avoid unwanted pregnancies. As far as I know, this isn't the case. If she wants to have a kid and get married at 17, that's her problem.

Well, as someone said pages ago, my gob is smacked. What's astounding is that women on the left side of the aisle would suggest that another woman is a bad mother by virtue of the fact that she dares to have a career. That turns 50 years of feminism and progressive thought on its head. I suppose as long as the woman in question is a member of the political opposition then "her place is in the home". Dear me, how Victorian...or maybe even neanderthal. One suspects you had no such qualms about, say, Hillary Clinton working innumerable billable hours as a law partner while also managing her husbands campaigns and sitting on various corporate boards, not to mention her duties as first lady of AK, while Chelsea was a small child. I'm sure, for some reason "that was different".

As for Mr. Palin's ambitions, once again I suspect you've allowed your partisan passions to get the better of you. I've seen nothing to suggest that he has any ambition other than to raise his family and support his wife. If you have other evidence of some nefarious designs, please enlighten us. You've already shown your colors in suggesting Mrs. Palin is a bad mother for "allowing" her adult son to make his own career/service choices.


This is so extraordinarily lame. I mean, who the Hell are you to question another woman's paternity with nothing more to go on than vicious innuendo? Why not go ahead and pin the scarlet letter on her? Is there actually a word in the English language for woman on woman sexism? For those who are not entirely gullible, or driven by partisan zeal, here are some photos of Trig's mother giving the speech in Dallas (courtesy of the Dallas CBS affiliate).

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b48/skat...reggers_400.jpg

http://community.adn.com/sites/community.a...rge.preview.jpg

Al that being said, I still think she's a poor candidate. I only wish that Obama's most fervent followers would show the class that he's showing.

Well, that's a stretch, JW, that Bristol wanted to get pregnant. Usually, in religious families, you get married first, have baby second and preferably more than 40 weeks later.

@DanHessen: You're twisting what I said, and you know it. First, I wasn't comparing Hillary Clinton with Sarah Palin, you are. Secondly, I never said Governor Palin has no right to a career. It is my opinion that deciding to run for VP now, with a disabled infant and pregnant teenager at home, and a thin resume, is poor judgment and poor parenting. This goes for not only all the time and effort that goes into a presidential campaign, and the job itself were she to be so fortunate to get it, but also all the press attention that goes with it. This is not just any career. And I'm not the only one here saying so.

As for Mr. Palin, you don't think a VP spouse would be a feather in his cap and a boon to the family economy? Certainly our Second Ladies to the present time would disagree with you.

As for the "vicious innuendo" about Trig's mother, well, it may be that I was misled. I didn't make up the story, you know.

I hope you're not lumping me with Obama's most fervent followers. I'm not even a vague supporter. But I am offended by McCain's choice for VP, yes, and I was last Friday night.

Yeah ... just what every 17-year-old wants ... a problem.

You have a source to back that up, i.e. that the pregnancy was intentional?

Um, what about that dude Jerome Corsi, is he not a Republican swiftboater for hire? Please, this goes to the very heart of the religious agenda and to the homes of the pro-lifers. No matter how you slice it, it's not a good deal.

I highly doubt anyone will be seeing Bristol anytime soon.

They'll probably tuck her away in some Resort, only to emerge a newlywed. I'm waiting to see the familiy pics of everyone, including aunts and uncles and Grandma Palin holding her pride and joy.

DanHessen makes many good points here with which I fully agree.

I will go on the record as saying that I have no issues whatsoever with Palin, her daughter, her husband, her son or an of the life choices they have made along the way. In many ways, there's a lot to like.

However, I think it was an incredible lapse of judgement going into a very tough election for McCain to chose someone with so much baggage as a running mate right into a thinly-attended party convention and a very close election. Full stop.

I don't think this is generally accurate:

Note the following comments by James Dobson (read all of them, not just the excerpt I cite here):


Moctoj alluded to this earlier:

Are they? Ah. It's been several hours since I scanned the news outlets. But the non-fundie, non-ultra conservatives won't care. For the Great Unwashed, this is not that unusual.

By the way, I have noticed that several apparent McCain/Palin supporters have commented bitterly that this criticism is partisan in nature. Speaking for myself and probably plenty of others, that's not the case: I don't vote in the US and I view this election as a world event, not a left/right event. Or right/wrong. Imploring people to stop criticizing strikes me as a tad dangerous-- shouldn't we have more of that in general, even if it gets nasty? Does Let's Be Nice even have a place in politics today?

Not to mention, his primary ended months ago and he's sat on this decision since. So he announces to the world - here she is! Isn't she great? And come to find out, the GOP had not vetted her yet. What? How is that possible? Did he get on the internet himself and check google? Does he know how to use a computer? Come on, it's only been 72 hours since he announced her and this comes out?

Conquistdor, I like you and feel you are routinely the most unfairly maligned person on this thread.

However, this is like the classic "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a noise?' philosophical question.

Do you really think they would have put out a press release on that?

Pretty sure McCain was nowhere near the internet on this one, moctoj2. He's a self-described computer "illiterate" who has "never felt the particular need to email." That says a lot.

It was certainly implied, per se, in your posion about this being an attack from the Obama 'goons' ... or did you not write that word?

Obama supporters might want to take note of his own comments on Bristol Palin's pregnancy:


Obama's mother was unmarried when she became pregnant with him (and his father was at that time married to another woman back in Kenya). I believe his comments here are genuine and heartfelt.

Expaticus, they probably would not have, but my point was that for people who are pro-life, they understand that accidental pregnancies happen and they oppose use of abortion as birth control, thus they would view an abortion, not a pregnancy itself, as scandalous.

You'd have a point if it weren't for the continuous lamentations ad nauseum from progressive Europeans that personal matters shouldn't count in elections.

Look, I agree it's not my business what her family values are but when they affect my daughter (not that I have one but I have five nieces), it does affect me. This woman wants to be the #2 in the country!

Unfortunately, Rovian politics has been proven to be effective in getting your candidate elected. Nobody claims to like it, but it's apparently human nature to pay attention to the negatives and not the positives.

And yes, Conquistador, I think Obama's statement was sincere. But then, he doesn't have much to gain by piling on.

Yeah, but you have to be european to get that bye card (french politicians funerals with the grieving widow and the grieving mistress sitting next to each other on the reviewing stand, etc.).

Hypocricy "R" Us!

Maybe I need to become a pro-lifer so that there would actually be a baby that I could easily adopt!

You people all took typing classes, didn't you? MAN you are fast!

Let me guess (I obviously don't expect anyone to publicly discuss such a private thing) no one posting on this thread was ever born or conceived out of wedlock nor fathered/bore/conceived a child out of wedlock?

So tell us Cinzia, you think it's not a woman's place to knock on any glass ceilings? I mean, Heaven forbid! She's a woman! And a mother! Her place is in the kitchen. Somebody please cue up the theme song to Ozzie and Harriet. I feel a dose of 1958 nostalgia coming on.

Conquistador, so you don't believe it's fair to judge a candidate's values or decision making ability based on their familial relations, or more specifically how they treat said members? Certainly the risks taken by Palin during labor (for what exactly?) warrant examination.


And I think most everyone else's point is that it's another example of conservative's blindly continuing on a course despite clear evidence in front of their faces that their espoused policies don't work.

Not unusal? So it is okay to preach abstinence to Americas children and then your minor child ends up knocked up?
Not only is it unusal, but it's immoral and dishonest to preach a lifestyle that is proven to have not worked in your own home. Where you have the strongest ability to control the situation and educate your family. If it fails at home, it fails our children at large. We are doing our kids a disservice by ignoring that underage sex is a fact of life.

Of course they're going to play it down... 'it's an ordinary family in extraordinary circumstances' bull. Thank god the rest of America has sense to see the hypicrosy in it.

Case In Point... Christianity Today

Agreed. But how many unintended abortions are ever announced in the way that this unintended pregnancy was to ever be judged as scandalous in the first place?

"If a tree falls in the forest ..."

Way too much knocking for one evening

I told you already once that you are deliberately misunderstanding me.

It is a parent's job to take into consideration the needs of their children when they make decisions that affect their families. In my opinion, Sarah Palin and her husband made a very poor decision as parents, to accept the nomination for VP, knowing what was coming. Bristol Palin is five months, not five days, pregnant. They know what Sarah has stated in the past for the press in terms of family values, abstinence-only sex education, etc.

If you think their judgment was just fine, or irrelevant, you are free to disagree with that as loudly as you want. But you are not free to mischaracterize my statements.

If Governor Palin had decided to run for president or VP in 2012, with a 4-year-old child with disabilities and a daughter who had gotten pregnant four years ago, at the age of 17, I would have been happy to consider her resume. This is not a woman thing.

You know, I can speak from a feminist perspective and also from a perspective of one who believes you take care of your family before ANYTHING else. So it is not difficult for me as a feminist to feel Palin is doing a disservice to her infant son and pregnant daughter by persuing this position at this time.

I don't suggest we should ignore them; however, we should view them within their entire context. BTW, if the same people now condemning Palin don't think exposing Obama's young daughters to the racist hate speech of Jeremiah Wright was an issue, I think they need to re-examine their perspective.

As to Palin mere's pregnancy, she is pro-life, so her going through with her pregnancy was consistent with her beliefs.


As regards abortion, I don't think that statement is applicable here. Abortion isn't the solution for the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies- reducing unwanted pregnancies through greater use of birth control and making sure kids are well-informed is.

cinzia, I think it's pretty clear Palin and her husband have long been able to balance family life with their careers, so I think they know better than us what they are doing to deal with this within their own familial sphere.

I'll bet the answer to your question is is "a few of us".

But answer to the question "how many of the people posting on this thread ever born or conceived out of wedlock nor fathered/bore/conceived a child out of wedlock ran for the second-highest office in the free world" would doubtless be "none of us."

Which is how it should be. We all deserve better.

Wheel, I like that photo. I wish that was Sarah Palin, working away back in her governor's office in Alaska.

Although I think we have to teach children what all of their options are to prevent unwanted pregnancies, I think this criticism is unfair. Palin believed in abstinence to prevent unwanted pregnancies long before her daughter became pregnant. Truth is, abstinence (if it is actually observed, and, yes, we all know that is unlikely for most young people) is the most foolproof way to prevent unwanted pregnancies and STDs. If Bristol Palin had practiced abstinence, she would not have become pregnant.

From Gawker: Sarah Palin is the Harriet Miers of VP candidates.

Conquistador, you know as well as the rest of us that the issue is abstinence-ONLY sex education, not sex education with an abstinence component.

Palin backs abstinence-only sex education, meaning she is in favor of blocking crucial information for teenagers that they might not get outside of school, to prevent pregnancy in case of sex. My parents cerainly advocated abstinence for their three daughters. I will advocate it for mine. I hope her boyfriends' parents will have also encouraged abstinence. But I sure expect to be giving a full and accurate education on preventing pregnancy at home, and I hope that her school will also be giving other kids the same education.

If a self-proclaimed conservative potential future Vice President of the United States can't manage to keep her daughter from sleeping around, then I seriously worry about her command presence in other situations.

"Bristol, I told you a thousand times not to play with plutonium!" "Screw you, mom! [door slams and tires on Iranian boyfriend's motorcycle screetch outside]."

ditto here. As I said, she is peaking too early. But hey, I'm sure she figures that this opportunity will never come her way again.

They'll get to that right after they're finished with the biology textbooks that show kids feeding apples to the dinosaurs 4,000 years ago.

I just thought it was funny how the guy who drags up Obama's half brother suddenly sees the light on family issues and posts quotes saying they are off limits


Considering there is no risk of death due to hate speech, I don't think there's much of a comparison there. Besides, the Christian right wing of America is hardly one to criticize anyone for exposing children to hate speech at church.

cinzia, you also know that the education curricula of this sort is handled at the local level, with state input in some cases. This isn't something she could impose on her own even if she wanted to- it's her personal belief.

TFL, if you should note the differences between non-support for an adult half-brother a world away and Palin's daughter's pregnancy (or for that matter her going through with her pregnancy, as more than a few women her age have). If Palin had chosen to have an abortion, I would have understood why, but it's her call. She chose not to.

As for hate speech, it can kill (normally indirectly) but what were the chances of either her or her baby dying as a result of her going through with her pregnancy (also note the above comments in this post).

One last thing, TFL, not being Christian, and therefore not being a churchgoer (last time I attended a service I was a minor) I don't generally know what gets said in churches. That said, I doubt hate speech is de rigueur in most US churches.

Nope, not unusual. Frequency and morals are not proportionate, and honesty is an illusion in politics, media, and American society generally, where personal responsibility lacks imagination generally (SUVs and McDonalds's, anyone?). YOU, moctoj, influence your nieces far more than Sarah Palin and her pregnant child could ever dream of doing.

And speaking of morals, I think that is precisely what's wrong with America: believing morals are sacred and fragile, and meanwhile buying People and US magazine, and checking TMZ to see what crazy trouble Brittney's gotten into this week. The hypocrisy starts way before Palin's 17 year old daughter, who is probably just living her damn life trying to be happy and normal. You get exactly the leaders you deserve, because they wouldn't sell it if you wouldn't buy it. (By "you" I don't mean you, personally). Likewise, Palin gets exactly the media attack she deserves, the American people get exactly the choices they deserve.

I'm not mischaracterizing anything. You've been banging the "bad mother" gong from the beginning. Most notably with the ridiculous notion that she's a bad mother by "allowing" her adult son to make his own adult decisions. Not only that, you cast aspersions on the character of the father, with a big fat zero to back it up. Seriously, where do you get off doin' that?

Whether or not it's in the bests interests of their daughter to apply for this particular job...I don't know. I don't know what sort of support network they have amongst their family and I also suspect you don't know and don't care. AS long as there are some political points to be scored, to Hell with actual details. By the wway, do you think it was cool for Hillary to work the equivalent of four jobs when her kid was a toddler?

My parents preached abstinence. It's the birth control that they used in between having 4 kids (how unfortunate for them). My mom was smart when I started asking the tough questions as a teen, and she said "I can't control what you are going to do, but PLEASE promise me that you will never get pregnant out of wedlock, e.g. use birth control". I was so shocked by her being reasonable for once, that I took those words to heart, and I never did. The OVERLY tough parental approach rarely works. I suppose Palin has learned this the hard way...

Conquistador, since the question, and her answer, was part of a candidate questionnaire when she was running for governor in 2006, I guess this is somewhat important to Alaskans. Her daughter is Alaskan.

McCain put Palin on the ticket because of her social conservative bona fides. Live by the conservative bona fides, die by them, I say.

You would. I don't see it as unfair at all. Bristol Palin obviously did not and is now knocked up. Does one look to the parents or do you look to the school curriculum? The parents obviously. Is it a measure of their parenting, not necessarily, but it is a measure of the old addage 'don't preach what you can't practice'. Was McCain's judgement sound knowing this could possibly taint his campaign? I'm sure he was banking on the news not being leaked or talked about as hard. He's into taking big gambles right now.

Conquistador... the point is, you somehow tried to equate "exposure to hate speech" with the massive risks Palin took during the period she was in labor with her child. I don't think the two are remotely comparable.