U.S. Presidential Election 2008

When you have been proven wrong, I have pointed out exactly what you have been proven wrong on. e.g., the Wellstone amendment vote in 2001. That you don't admit it is your problem.

Many government officials have potential conflicts-of-interests due to their business or other ownership interests. AFAIK, they deal with this by putting their assets in a blind trust. It's not an issue.


Yes, it is easy for you to jump to conclusions that fit your anti- McCain template. From the USA Today (not WP) article:


That's quite a bit different from being "for underage drinking". Most people who watch these broadcasts are 21 or over. Nice example of interest groups misrepresenting the issue. College kids aren't going to stop drinking just because some ads aren't shown on national and local broadcasts that everyone has access to.

Cindy McCain heads an A-B distributorship, she is not part of A-B corporate. Anyway (from the second link you provided):


Which has bipartisan support.

There is no proof, merely unfounded assumptions here (as usual). Like this froom the Join Together link:


Note the article admits McCain has recused himself in the past from alcohol industry issues. There is no reason to assume he would exert improper influence, especially if his wife's interests go into a blind trust.

That was not the point Cinzia...Latte drinkers suck, as well as proper nouns.

A huge portion of those broadcast watchers are college kids, but they are already too drunk to pay attention.

You've presented your O-P-I-N-I-O-N. You seem to keep confusing that with actually trying to 'prove someone wrong'. Opinions can be debated, facts are concrete.

It is your o-p-i-n-i-o-n that the McCains will not have a serious effect on the alcohol industry in government. It is valid concern and Public interest group are wise to raise the alarm.

As for whether you think it's a non issue...again, your o-p-i-n-i-o-n. So on that note, the stakes raise for Mccain as public interest groups review his ties.


You can claim that all day. But there is significant concern and many are not too keen on trusting the 'what if'.

So just who have you proven wrong?

My reference to proving you wrong was on statements of fact that you have claimed earlier in this thread which were proven to be untrue. As to the separate issue of your claim about worries regarding McCain and the alcohol industry, you fail to mention that it is the opinon of some activists. McCain has avoided conflicts of interest with regards to this industry throughout his 25 years in Congress, so the burden of proof lies on those who worry he would not as President.

One point I forgot to make in my previous post is that I see no evidence that Mrs. McCain has ever taken a position on the advertising issue, so to attribute it to her and a husband who has avoided conflicts of interests with regards to the alcohol industry is specious.

As for conflicts of interest that have not been properly dealt with, how about Barack personally steering $1 million in federal money to the hospital that pays Michelle over 300K annually? H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.

Really? Prove to me that Cindy McCain is not an admitted drug addict, bought up on Federal crimnal charges with involvements in her charity and payed a fine to get out a prision sentence. Start with that one please.


Some activists? Oh, okay... you mean the mothers and fathers of America that want to see government do it's job of lawfully protecting minors. They shouldn't have to be concerned about the potential next president being brow beaten by his wife about the passing of Alcohol legislation. Nice call.


Of course he has ... he was a Congressional member, he has that ability. Things change you know, when you become President and bills cross your desk and it is a challenge that McCains own people acknowledge.


Not to mention the Industry itself is lobbying congress for lower taxes.

As for conflicts of interest that have not been properly dealt with, how about Barack personally steering $1 million in federal money to the hospital that pays Michelle over 300K annually? H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.
Earmarking large sums of money to top supporters and fundraisers is a popular practice in both houses of Congress. Omg...what a shocker. Just to add ... the $1 million was requested for the construction of a new hospital pavilion at the University Of Chicago. The request was put in in 2006.


In case you were going to ask... I'll take the hot lady that supported a hospital and the care of the sick and elderly, over the one that supports just one elderly dude any day.

Warning Will Robinson, approaching SEVERE!

You are in a state of denial about what I have proven you wrong on, e.g., the Wellstone amendment vote in 2001. I have previously pointed out what you were wrong on.

As for Ms. McCain, yes, she was addicted to painkillers, and I have acknowledged that (in case you actually paid attention). As for the claim you made that she should have gone to jail, once again, I ask you to show similar infractions by first-time offenders as some kind of evidence that a first time offender for what she did/was charged with would actually go to jail. The problem is with your interpretation that she should have gone to jail- a conclusion you drew because of hatred for her and her spouse instead of an actual knowledge of how the justice system handles such cases.

How about proof of your delusional claim that the TV networks have been bribed?


Nice misrepresentation. Very few college kids are minors. Given that alcohol runs freely on college campuses, it seems to me the problem of underage drinking is far greater than advertising that people of all age groups see because it's on broadcast TV. Why aren't you up in arms demanding that alcohol be banned altogether from college campuses? Don't you think that would be more effective? The link you posted cited activists.

You assume McCain would be influenced by his wife, yet in his 25 years in Congress has he ever not recused himself from legislation affecting the alcohol industry? Why assume the worst without evidence? Would you want people to assume that Barack would allow former terrorists such as Bill Ayers to influence his policymaking?


You say McCain has taken a position on the advertising issue? Where's your proof? Wasn't it one of your own links that said McCain recuses himself from alchohol industry issues? Yet you claim otherwise.

So things would change for Saint Barack as well. I wonder how many other Rezko would benefit.


What industry is not? Perhaps in all your Internet surfing you have come across the fact that tax legislation starts in the House of Representatives, whose legislative agenda is controlled by Democrats Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer. No industry can get a tax cut without their support.

Lots of groups with whom Barack has ties are lobbying for federal money. Is that a reason not to vote for him?


It's also not an ethical practice. Then there is Obama's help to fundraisers such as Rezko when he was in the Illinois State Senate. You seem to think that just because Barack does it, McCain would do it as well. You don't seem to have a problem with Barack's ethical lapses. Funny that.

$1 million is small potatoes for a major research hospital like the University of Chicago. That's a non-story. *yawns*

Kodos to Hillary for being a class act last night.

I just watched the speech of Mark Warner and was quite impressed. Mark Warner for Pres in 2016, anyone?

And proper latte drinkers are the WORST.

Well done last night, Hillary.

Canada once had an Obama-like figure. He was young, inexperienced, a lawyer, and a liberal, but people loved him and voted for him and he went on to be one of the most significant prime ministers in canadian history. he was popular in a time of unpopular war, and presented new ideas, healed cultural rifts. John Lennon said of him:


His wife was in countless extra-marital affair scandals, later learning it being heavily a result of having manic depression, and has since gone on to raise the awareness of the illness. so it's obviously terrible if the first lady is of "questionable" character.

He was not without his faults. For what he was criticized however, many other western countries were doing the same.

His name is Pierre Trudeau.

I would give her kudos, but if the other is better then count me in. I hear even Chris Matthews was impressed and that is saying something.

Essentially ...

I had forgotten to put the statement in quotes ... but here is the orignal poster.

Yeah, among other people, Margaret Trudeau was banging Teddy Kennedy - yet another cheese dick Democrat sex scandal.

I dunno about that, but one of these guys is Kodos

I would rather have a piece of ass than a piece of elephant.

Okay, I read the speech and then watched her performance afterward.
My summary:
I thought she was solid in her delivery and there were several humorous points; loved the Pantsuit and No Way McCain message but I thought that was sorta weak against him and his campaign. What I didn't see was her say was that she liked Obama or WHY she liked him. She said Michelle would be a great First Lady but never once mentioned that Obama would be a great president. Isn't this his convention? She totally sidestepped that. She also made no case for Obama or listed any reasons why she would vote for him...in fact, she never once said, she would vote for him, just to support him. Also, I don't know why she had to rehash her 'historic' campaign over again considering she never once ceded defeat. Why didn't she say something like "I want Obama answering that 3am call".
I don't know but it just didn't seem sincere to me and of course, my standards for her are very high. Ya know for someone that has been in politics for 35 years, she sidestepped lots of praise for the front runner. I gained a little respect for Hillary as I watched her speech, but she didn't knock it out of the park and she didn't nail it in my book. I doubt I'd ever warm up to her considering how she dragged out the primary and divided the party (even though I'm no party person). I'd like to see Obama place her for powerful positions as Obama's Aide somewhere. (I also thought that Chelsea wrote her speech).

You just shot up 1,000% in my book. That would be a perfect commercial for her to make.

As for the rest, she is still pissed that she lost (i.e. victim of sexism) and I think she has gotten a little too close to her own primary rhetoric (i.e. victim of sexism). I am more interested in Bill saying those things than Hillary. Hillary did what she needed to do and did it well. It is up to Bill to hit the home run*!

*many of Hillary's supporters were and are actually Bill's peeps!

Why should she justify her support? She's a Democrat. It goes without saying that she supports him, since he's the Democratic candidate. That's what she's telling her supporters to do. After standing against him, it would have made her support for him look less credible if she had bent over backwards to list his good points. It would have looked, if not sarcastic, at least insincere, fake and patronising.

What else do you expect from Hillary at this point? Who really needs to move on here? Instead of blaming Clinton for everything, why doesn't Obama and company focus on their own faltering campaign? After racism, I can already see that election defeat excuse number two come November will be the Clintons, in one way or another.

Bear in mind that Moses' campaign was not only going to allegedly win over the entire Democratic Party with its substance-rich themes of "hope" and "change", it was going to eat into all those indepedent voters who are pro-McCain. So far neither of those two things have happened and yet we still have people on this site predicting an Obama landslide come November. Incredible.

I agree it may be a great commercial, at least for BHO.

It would make her look like a hypocrite. Was she telling the truth then or is she now? Can we trust HRC now given the latest lie?

She is looking forward to 2012, so she is not compromising herself any more than she needs to.

Sounds like the PUMAs could still cause troubles, since HRC and Bill have been lukewarm for BHO.

Watch the roll call today and the reaction when they go to acclamation. That may be when you will see some fireworks.

The 3am ad could be done in a way that doesn't compromise Hillary and shows that she would rather have Obama than McCain answering the phone. Actually, I ought to whip something together myself on that. Would be cool.

The next big thing which might happen tomorrow is McCain's announcement of a running mate. With Biden as the Dem VP, I think all bets are off for Romney. Look for Charlie Crist or Jeb Bush to make a surprise visit to the Rep ticket.

I agree with eurovol that Crist is a possible choice; however, I cannot see why he would put Dubya's brother on the ticket (even though Jeb is defintely his own man and has always been widely acknowledged to have a better command of the issues). McCain needs someone that the public feels can step in as President if something happens to him, and he needs someone who can go toe to toe with Biden (admittedly not an easy task). Mark Sanford (the South Carolina governor) would fit the bill, plus make conservatives happy.

As to HRC, I think her speech was reasonable (too much fawning over Obama would have been viewed as insincere). I can understand her disappointment, but she lost fair and square, although no doubt there were some people who didn't support her because she is a woman. That said, I don't think she lost because she is a woman. I think it was a poorly run campaign and her high negatives among many liberal primary voters. She ran well later in the primaries when she developed a common touch and would probably be handily defeating McCain if she were the Democratic nominee, especially with Evan Bayh as the VP nominee.

Damnit Conky, where the hell did that come from? Hell must have froze over because most of that I agree with except for adding Bayh. I don't like him anymore.
Oh and No more Bushes - that would be easy for Obama - the Bush, Clinton, Bush, Bush family thing again. He'd be all over that. We're not the UK with family dynasties.
You just blew me away with that post. That's a first.

Just listened to her speech ... I appreciate how poised she was.

I see it being a final public closure of her conceeding the race to Obama. It wasn't too over the top, but firm. She earned my respect with her speech and I'd like to think the followers that are so dedicated to her, would listen to her solid message. Because in the end ... as she said, it's about uniting for the purpose, of making sure McCain is not the next president.

I also watched some GOP coverage of the event, and as predicted ... they keep trying to pick at the scap ... 'why wasn't she VP' to appeal to the people that are still holding grudges. Desperate for every bloody drop... courting Hillary supporters. Made me gag.

Clinton had it right though with her beginning.. "I am here as a proud mother," she declared, "a proud Democrat, a proud Senator from New York, a proud American - and a proud supporter of Barack Obama."

It was great start for the Clintons... emotional with Hillary... and the followup of Bill thou needs to have that added extra punch to McCain and a good boost for Obama.

Hillary would not be handily defeating McCain (with or without Bayh). We are in the EC season and right now Obama is comfortably up. He carries states that Hillary wouldn't and is close in Rep leaning states where Hillary wouldn't even have a chance. Hillary would need Ohio, Penn and Florida whereas Obama could win with only one and he is comfortably up in Penn (you know that state that wouldn't elect him?). Ohio and Florida are virtual ties and that is why I think McCain will pick a Floridian for the VP slot. Jeb Bush would be the most obvious choice. He connects with Latinos and he is the brightest Bush of them all. The Reps would love him on the ticket and the Conservatives and neocons too.

Absolutely. Hillary has done her bit. After Denver, she should refocus on her own priorities and let Obama take care of himself.

I still don't understand why the Obama supporters here, who hate Hillary's guts and make no secret of it, think that nevertheless it would somehow help Obama's campaign if Hillary were to continue campaigning for him. If she's such an insincere, loathesome, politics-as-usual bitch, why would associating her with Obama make Obama more appealing?

I haven't seen anyone 'hating' Clinton. I've seen frustration at some of her diehard supporters and a good few, myself included, who think Billary was not right for the presidency. But that does not equal 'hate'

Sanford had a recent mental lapse that got some media attention.

My favorite was his pork barrel protest. He brought two baby pigs into the chambers to protest. Apparently it went well, until the little piggies pooped all over the place.

I did not watch HRC, but I read:

• HRC said she would support BHO but she never said she would vote for him.
• She said Michelle would be a good first lady, but she never said BHO would be a good president.

BTW, When did HRC drop using the Rodham everywhere? I thought she was known for her hard line feminist leanings. Taking a man's name? Oppressive!

Did anyone see Carvile sporting his PUMAs? I don't like the man, but I like the look...

You are new to this by your own admission, so let me explain it too you. She has not done her "bit" yet. Her bit isn't over until November 5th. That is the way it is. It is only over for those that supported her and her alone and not the ideals or the Party.

When she ran for President under her husband's legacy.

I think his PUMA's are a subtle message if you know what I mean.

Not necessarily... Hillary will also need the Dem. support of her to be re-elected to the Senate, so it would be in her best interests to continue to show Party unity post convention.

Because it's really not about standing individuals (Obama or Hillary) it's about the Democratic Party... And what the smart dude said ...eurovol, he's right about that.

I'm not referring to you, BTC. Have a look back at the primaries thread at some of eurovol's posts.

Apparently he's not going to be satisfied until Hillary totally and repeatedly contradicts everything she said in the primaries about why she was the better candidate. Then, people like eurovol and kitty kat can snark about what she didn't say, or how she didn't say it correctly, or how she didn't have the proper facial expression when she said it. They can also say in November that Hillary's insincere support of Obama is what cost him the election.

eurovol, you still haven't answered the question about why you want to see her on the campaign trail for Obama, if she's such poison?

I'm not new to the process of presidential elections, by the way. Today is my 41st birthday. That makes this presidential campaign the fifth in which I've voted, and I've always voted for the Democratic candidate.

Happy birthday!

Completely. I've met him in person, and that's exactly the sort of thing he'd do.

But she was sure down with expressing her feminst credentials by keeping her daddy's name

What name would you have suggested she take, then, Expaticus? Eve's?

For those of you not in the United States, most of the t-shirts, buttons, and other campaign swag just had "Hillary 2008" on them.

You take things too personally.

I did not criticize her anything outside of her policies and the way she ran her campaign. PERIOD!

Hillary was not the better candidate and is not the person to be President in my mind (and I wasn't alone obviously), but that doesn't make her poison. And by fuck yes, I want her to admit her lies and innuendo that hurt the Party in the Primary and in the GE.

EDIT: Happy Birthday btw.

I sent a message for Cafferty to ask him tonight and I bet he will too.

First things first- Happy Birthday, cinzia.


Whether it would be "handily" or not, is a matter of opinion (what "handily" is would also be a matter of opinion).

Here are the states where I think Hillary would be stronger than BO: Michigan, Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Hampshire, Arkansas, Kentucky, Nevada and West Virginia. Obama is not going to win the Southern states unless it is am absolute landslide (not likely) and probably won't win Virginia unless McCain implodes. Iowa would go for any Democrat this year. That leaves Western states like Colorado, New Mexico and Missouri. New Mexico is normally pretty reliable for Democratic candidates. Missouri is a toss-up. That leaves Colorado as well as Virginia where having him on the ticket seems to make a difference. Obama does not have a realistic shot in the Great Plains states, Texas, Kentucky, Alaska or West Virginia. If he wants to waste time chasing these states and ones like Utah and Montana where he'll never win, he is a fool. He has suspended spending in some swing states, and let's see if that continues after the convention and up until Election Day (depends on several factors).


She's not up for re-election until 2012 in a heavily Democratic state. I don't think she would be abandoned en masse by Democrats unless she would endorse McCain and campaign for him. Who would even be a realistic primary challenger? Andrew Cuomo? Please.

Her mother's? Another attempt at humor squashed.

Dude, it is a moot point that you want to just flog like a dead horse and you have already thrown up a number of states where the polls say you are WRONG! I have already posted them (Michigan in particular) and several of the states you have listed she wouldn't win anyway regardless. And you are posting bullshit about suspended spending in various states (with no source). There are paid staff in all 50 states and paid staff going after overseas Americans. That is a first and Hillary would not have done that.

It was in the news about the suspended spending here and others. Suspended during convention, not known if it restarts.

I could believe the staffing in all states. Looks like they hired staff in some of the red red red states (AL, SC, etc) so maybe they can claim a "57" state presence for BHO?

California passes.

Not spending money on TV ads while you are getting wall to wall coverage...good move I say.

Makes sense. Illinois, too, so, yeah. NY next?

Montana, the big mouth state!

Quite a few Hillary delegates have already switched over to Obama.

Hillary has ended it.

Thursday night party! Everyone is taking friday off here so we can rejoice properly Thursday night, and a little reminder via Current TV. democratic messiah.