U.S. Presidential Election 2008

A meeting of the minds.

How does it apply, Jules?

I wouldn't trust someone who never did recreational drugs... I sure won't trust Joe Biden if Obama picks him either, he is the prick that created the office of the Drug Czar.

Biden was also the one who said that the only reason that Obama is where he is, is because he's an AA...


If McCain's military experience is irrelevant, I wonder what Obama has done which is?

So you got that from him?

What's an AA

All experience is relevant. Even unimportant stuff is under the microscope, and this is the time of year when typically judgmental Americans truly go off the deep end to criticize the other candidate.

My point is, for conservatives to be on a massive campaign that trumpets McCain's military service as god's gift to America's future, then it should have been important eight years ago. But it wasn't. No one cared. But now, running against some guy that was so lowly he only helped a small community in Chicago (he didn't even make national news, the loser), it's of massive importance to the nation. Our lives depend on it.

You can attack Obama all day. I couldn't care less. I'm calling out the hypocrisy of the current conservative message.

We can definitely agree on that.
Now that will be interesting. Because deciding which is worse between the virtues of an adulterous, opportunistic hothead and as Jules puts it 'recreational drug use' will surely deteriorate this thread into a gutter filled, trash talking, insult flinging nightmare.

This isn't something conservative per se, military service is important in the US all across the political spectrum.


Uhm... Maybe it wasn't news twenty years ago, but it's the Obama crowd and MSM sycophants who are now ridiculously trumping up his community service as if it were something comparable to the accomplishments of Mahatma Gandhi!?

When evaluating a candidate, IMHO, you should look at everything that matters to you about that candidate, their personal background, their political history, their policy stances, governing philosophy, etc.

I would be curious to know from those who think McCain's military service is irrelevant for the position of Commander of Chief which things about Obama they think are irrelevant for the position of Commander in Chief, as well as what they think is relevant about both candidates?

bohemka, I was overseas doing military service in 2000 and did not follow the primaries, but I think we can agree that the international geopolitical and security situation was much different at that time, thus it is likely that previous military service was not as significant a factor for a candidate in that year.

@Jules

Really? Do a quick google search for "Obama community service." What comes up? An article from 2007 and a number of attacks calling it into question.

When's the last time anybody on here talked about his community service? I don't think anyone cares.

What things are irrelevant about Obama for Commander in Chief:

His favorite color
His favorite food
Boxers/briefs
among several thousand other things

Can we also agree that the opinions of a citizen who has military experience do not necessarily trump the opinions of another citizen who has none? Because I'm REALLY tired of that argument.

Is it not the generals, defense secretary, etc. that really come up with the plans, and it is the president that gives the thumbs up or thumbs down? With that in mind, are there not advisors there to recommend courses of action, and their potential outcomes?

Is it not the president's job to maintain a vision, and getting those under him to do the actual work? Then he stamps his authority on whether his people are maintaining his vision for the country?

I mean, there are only 24 hours in a day. One man can't do it all. The President only steers the ship, no?

I would expect military experience to be important for someone at the top of the military, but I don't see how it's gonna affect Obama's ability to make those important decisions. He's not standing alone in the White House (the President), he's got a whole team of people. It's just him that bears ultimate responsibility.

Am I way off?

No you are right.. IMO Eisenhower was the last president for whom military experience was relevant to his job.

The following suggests ample scope for an Obama bounce coming out of the convention:


I'll say it again, Evan Bayh would be a great VP choice for Obama if both feel they would be able to work well together.

John Kennedy? PT-109 was a key element of his carefully-created mystique.

Jimmy Carter? Being an Annapolis grad and naval officer clearly gave him crossover street cred in a "vote for change" election.

Yeah but to be relevant to being commander in chief I would think you need some overarching military decision making experience.. Being an officer on a sub is not much of a selling point.

Ike was supreme allied commander, at that point I'll say you probably have a selling point.

Kennedy commanded a PT boat, not too much responsibility... Enough to teach him to baloon our troops and vietnam and ensure quagmire though..

Thank you Cinzia, yes, yes, by all means yes. I'm actually the one that started all this over the last 2 or 3 pages because eurovol tried to marginalize my opinions because I didn't serve and he did. I think everyone can agree that eurovol is the MOST partisan person on this forum and I just found it the hight of hypocrisy that he supports the candidate that didn't serve when there is another candidate that did everything but die for his country.

Thought-provoking.

The following persidents had general staff-level military experience: Washington, Jackson, W. H. Harrison, Taylor, Pierce, A. Johnson, Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, B. Harrison, Eisenhower.

That's 26%, which is significant.

Washington and Jackson were gerat.
W.H. Harrison died after a month in office, Garfield was shot six months in (Arthur ran out his tem and died soon after) and and Taylor died after 16 months.
Pierce and Grant were among the worst presidents in US history.
A. Johnson was impeached.
Hayes and Harrison didn't seem to do much of anything, and Eisenhower's star has only risen with hindsight ... at the time he was seen as a golf-playing bumbler.

So, how truly important is military experience ... even if it's general staff level?

I don't think its that important at all, I am just saying the only way to make an argument that its relevant job expertise IMO is if you held a pretty high position.

Well then Obama gets my nod. According to Jules, he used to attain pretty high positions.

It's respectable, but that's about all it is. Serving in the military isn't as honorable now as it was some years ago. Now, kids join, not necessarily to run up the ranks, but to gain valuable skills, experience and technical knowledge that they can transfer to the real world. The abuse of the military in recent times hasn't helped. Putting in your time, is not necessarily a measure of how patriotic you are, because even the best of men will leave after their service and show their true patriotic spirit in how they can transform and improve the conditions of American society. How's that for the true measure of a man. It seems to me, that the conservative push in this campaign to this 'red,white and blue, hardcore, southern-style of badboy, millitary honor' is a bit narrow and archaic.

Since there is no job training to become President, it comes down to your own interpretation doesn't it.

SlowCal, the argument that "I was in the military and you weren't, so my opinions about politics matter more than yours, because I'm a better American than you" has a long history on this forum. Just ask BadBob.

However, I don't find it glaringly inconsistent that eurovol served in the military, but supports Obama. Depends on where in his private list of important general candidate attributes military service comes in. I have my doubts that eurovol would ever vote for a Republican, no matter how many stripes and purple hearts he had.

Obama starts to look more and more like Jimmy Carter every day. They appear to have just found Billy.

So much for high falutin' names being the sole province of republicans ... "I'll see your George Herbert Walker Bush, and raise you one George Hussein Onyango Obama!"

Now we know where eurovol's stimulus check is going...

Seriously, given that he actually met Barry O, why is this man living in such abject poverty? Help a brother out, Barry.

No, I doubt we can agree to anything.

You don't personally know the presidential candidate. If you know they were military and you know something about serving in the military, that background alone can give you some insight into their character or moral makeup.

Of course, there are bad people everywhere so generalizations don't always work. But it is another piece of data when you are forming an opinion about a candidate.

Plus, I thought McCain not only was a POW, I thought I read he commanded a group of some level. The military is pretty good about developing leaders IMHO.

BTW, Zobee has McCain up by 5% here.

ORLANDO -- They came to their 109th national convention all pumped up, veterans who sacrificed for their country and for our freedom in wars big and small, whether they agreed with their commander in chief or not.

As the Veterans of Foreign Wars attempted to discern the mettle of the two men who want to be president, each arguing that the other was smearing his record, there was no doubt this was Republican John McCain's audience on Monday. The former Navy airman and Vietnam prisoner of war, who proudly proclaimed his lifelong membership in VFW Post 7401, was in his element.

Still on the fence, like so many other undecided Americans, I'm hoping to see McCain move beyond the old Bush mantra of ''you're either with us or against us'' and patch this blue-state and red-state quilt into one proud nation again.

Obama made that point to rousing applause from the vets Tuesday. It was a defining moment for those of us who aren't tied to one political party or another. To question the reasons we went to war in Iraq, to call on a timetable for withdrawal, Obama said, should never be interpreted as making an easy political call, even if most Americans agree with it.

''One of the things that we have to change in this country is the idea that people can't disagree without challenging each other's character and patriotism,'' Obama said. ``I have never suggested that Sen. McCain picks his positions on national security based on politics or personal ambition . . . Let me be clear: I will let no one question my love of this country.''

Source

Why? His brother is just a guy Obama's only met twice in his life.

Know what, gatzke? I worked at McDonald's when I was age 15-17. Anyone who worked at McDonald's knows it builds character and improves your moral makeup, and the uniform is much less impressive than the ones for military personnel. But I wouldn't run for office on it.

He ain't heavy ... he's my (half) brother.

I am wondering what sort of compromises Obama is willing to make to "bring everyone together". Do any Obama supporters have any ideas as to how he is going to do this, i.e., what specific concrete concessions will he make? Or is the lofty talk just words uttered in the midst of a campaign? The Democratic platform shows no evidence of any intent to compromise, plus we have heard from some Democrats here on TT that they are trying to defeat sitting Democratic members of Congress who in their eyes have "cooperated" on one or more votes with the White House. It just doesn't come close to adding up.

cinzia, I would never let a half-brother of mine live in poverty. Punkt.

cinzia, since you seem to think military service is irrelevant for US presidential candidates, what do you think is relevant?

For those that truly think McCain is well informed.

Once again, let the record show


What else could they say...? The truth perhaps.

This from a camp that puts a full out list of his membership of Senate Committees on his resume. Explain to me please how that works, because in the real world, it's called using 'fillers'.

Hmm, I would second that question to everyone. Asides from how the member reperesents your personal beliefs (economics, private matters, etc.), what are everyone's feelings for qualifications relevent to running for office?

Personally I think that military service can make you better equipped, especially if the experience concerns an executive position. But I certainly wouldn't categorize it as a make-or-break issue...

Ideas?

But BHO is not looking after even his sibling that lives on a dollar a day.


As I have said before, military experience as an American hero is enough to get you elected once, get your foot in the door. McCain actually has a record of accomplishment in the Senate, unlike BHO. However, the experience of being a POW also gives McCain experience to tell stories and win people over and feel good to be American. Stories that don't start "I was hanging out with this guy that hates America, and he said the funniest thing..."

While flipping burgers may be torture, I really don't think it compares to spengin time at the Hanoi Hilton.

The common man probably knows both kids at McDonalds and US military officers. They can extrapolate however they want, if they wish.

I'm pretty sure that KK posted that very same link before. Turns out Obama only attended one hearing on Afghanistan himself (asking only an unrelated question about Pakistan) plus:


Not much of a feather in Obama's cap, particularly given that he is the much less experienced candidate.

Well, Conquistador, where would you draw the line in terms of which relatives get financial aid from you and which don't? Could you not foresee that giving a handout to one poor relative in Africa, with whom Obama has never had any kind of relationship, will produce scads more? OK, the half-brother gets a handout, but not a cousin, or an aunt? What if the cousin is somehow disabled and unable to work, but the half-brother is not?

I am absolutely not bothered one way or another whether a President or other national elected leader has any military service in his background. (I supported Hillary, after all.) I am more concerned with health care and education, as well as bringing a definitive end to the American occupation of Iraq. If a man with little military experience can send troops into Iraq, one with no military experience can surely bring them back out.

gatzke, you and I both know that not everyone who served in the military was tortured. So are you saying that McCain is more qualified than Obama because he was a POW, or because he was in the military? Not the same thing.

Why would I feel good to be an American because of McCain's experience as a POW, again?

Yes, what he condemned before, he now embraces. McCain's been one of the biggest 180's in this campaign, because to get from where he was ... to then embrace the policies he does now (and once revolted), he's flipped the switch to such a dynamic degreee that he's become evey bit like Bush.

You would think a brother would help a brother out.


It is nice that you feel that way. However, some people think we may actually be winning in Iraq, helping to develop an ally in the middle east that could help stand with us in the future. A hasty retreat seems like a waste at this point when things are actually turning up.

Who do you think the US will turn to if we get in a shooting war with Russia? Or if that does escalate a bit more? BHO with this massive foreign policy experience?

Obama is wealthy enough to send him a few thousand dollars a year, which would go a long ways. This half-brother was known to him to be his half-brother. As for a cousin, it's not as close a relationship as a half-brother, but if Barry O cannot help out a desperately poor blood relative, IMHO, that speaks poorly of him and creates further doubts in my mind that he will actually do things to better the long-term living conditions of the poor in the US rather than pleasing his trial lawyer, subprime mortgage industry, hedge fund, and other megamillionaire/billionaire campaign donors.

cinzia, would you let a sibling live in abject poverty?


You have your preferences, and others have theirs. Some have a preference for a Commmander-in-Chief with military experience, some don't. It's up to you as an individual to decide what is important to you, and others will do the same. Cinzia, you stated a desire to see military service removed from consideration in the campaign, and that is what I have addressed.

Here are some links on Obama flip-flops (there are still some raw feelings among liberal Democrats about Barry O's betrayal on the FISA bill):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8022402094.html
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11535.html

That's fine and dandy, gatzke, but McCain's experience being tortured in a POW camp has what to do with whether he can somehow straighten out the mess in Iraq? The man thinks Iraq borders Pakistan, FFS.

Conquistador, you asked what was important to me in a candidate, I obliged. I never said everyone has to have the same priorities.

Yes, I would conceivably let a sibling with whom I have had no relationship live in abject poverty. It's not my responsibility who my father knocked up and what might have come of it.

It is not difficult to be more qualified than BHO.

You are correct, military service and being a POW are both different things. In this case, both support McCain.

McCain he had the chance to leave and he stood with the other prisoners rather than take the easy way out. This shows immense character to me. I could not make that same decision, so I respect the man and his service.

Plus he served as an officer, which I think is also admirable.

What were those BHO accomplishments you mentioned?

And Barry O thinks he visited 57 states and that he'll be dealing with foreign leaders for the next 10 years. Ho-hum.

Here are some more Obama gaffes:
http://www.gop.com/BarackGaffes/

No, but his experience does give you insight into his character and dedication.

Iraq is coming to a close. I thought Bush was setting up milestones for troop removal? Things are scaling back. US casualties are down. How straight do you want it? We (hopefully) now have an ally in the war against Islamo-facisty-US-haters.

I personally think the US never should have invaded. Things could be taken care of from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Look it up, gatzke. I'm not an Obama supporter, and I've been unhappy with his apparent lack of experience since the primaries.

I just don't think that McCain having been in the military means he is more qualified than Obama. If McCain showed immense personal character for not having "taken the easy way out," as you say, then I think he's a super guy, but I would think that was a heartwarming story whether he was American or not. Whatever bravery he may have shown arguably has nothing to do with his American passport.

How is it that a man who is reaching for the highest office of the land still raises questions about his ethical and moral behavior?

A question of Ethics or is this acceptable to the American people

But to his advisers, even the appearance of a close bond with a
lobbyist whose clients often had business before the Senate committee
Mr. McCain led threatened the story of redemption and rectitude that
defined his political identity.

I can agree with you lack of support for BHO. However, I am pretty happy at his recent exposure.


His military experience gives us insight into the man without actually knowing him. It also helps us assume that he has some life experience to draw from.

Just like I don't know BHO, but he seems to surround himself with people that hate America. That gives me insight into his character as well.

As for McCain, military background is not the only thing that makes him qualified. His distinguished senate record is something to point to. What can BHO point to? He tried to point to working with McCain against his party in the debate, but that was quickly outed since he abandoned that stance and came into the fold. McCain has been a maverick and may actually get stuff done.

Obama- ethics questions with Rezko, his own sweetheart mortgage deal from the mortgage industry (while a US Senator) and personal associations with known terrorists. And virtually no experience- the weak response to Russia'a aggression in Georgia was so impressive.

What about James Johnson, KK? You know, one former member of the Obama VP search committee who was involved in scandals at Fannie Mae.

As for lobbyists, it seems Obama has a past with them as well:

You may want to quote that when you paste verbatim. I thought that was yours, not from the link.

And we have been through this one. There was no proof of anything, just staffers that were concerned about appearances. The media came down pretty hard on that hit job story, since it had no proof, just empty allegations.

Why not point to McCain's first wife? He just pointed out that is his greatest moral failing. That is more reasonable, even though I find it amazing they are still on good terms. How many ex's are like that?

Maybe adultery is against the law, I think it varies state to state. I am pretty sure coke is against the law in all states... I know all my buddies like to get high and eat arugula.

Honestly speaking here.. a bunch of BS. You know as well as I do that McCain's record is far from distinguished, one could note, even without getting the specifics, that McCain dislikes Vets and Kids. And that's just a general jist of the record ...

Once a marverick/Independent ... now a Republican/GOP. The policies are vastly different and the man has not a hilt of his former title.

Saying McCain dislikes veterans and kids is vicious slander. You should be ashamed of yourself for making such ludicrous statements, not least because he has fathered (I believe) five kids and adopted three!