U.S. Presidential Election 2008

ROTC ain't the military. Don't even try to equate the two. Even Conky will agree with that.

As for being worried about the draft at 6 years old, I doubt you contemplated whacking your brother so you were the only surviving male child (I don't have a brother, but my friend did). Not involved? One day I am playing kick the can with the neighborhood kids, the next two of them are KIA. My bro-in-law joined the Navy instead of being drafted and he served on the USS Forrestfire. Don't even play like shitting in your diapers and ROTC means a damn thing.

I always admit a mistake when I make it so your point is well taken about being a teenager trying to "reason through shit" so I do apologize for that but I meant everything else.

Trust me on one thing, there is info out there that you have never considered so keep an open mind while you're figuring it all out, o.k.? America is the greatest country in the world (not perfect) and it deserves the benefit of the doubt.

No, its depressing cause I am too damn old.

Now I gotta bitch slap eurovol again. When were you in combat in the Navy? How many kama kazi attacks did you survive? I actually threw I live hand grenade in ROTC. I coulda died. It was louder than shit! There's no big gasoline explosion either when they go off like you see in the movies.

Oh yeah, when exactly did your boy Obama serve? Uh huh.

I appreciate it, and I certainly believe there are many, many facts that I'm unaware of. I promise to keep my mouth shut and my eyes open until I can understand as much of the big picture as possible if you agree not to beat up on any more little girls.

Excuse me while I die laughing.

How many kama kazi attacks?

I drink so many kamikaze's I couldn't even begin to tell you the number of those fuckers that attacked me.

eurovol, WHEN DID OBAMA SERVE? McLame did serve in case you never heard about it. He got to spend five years at a nice hotel in Hanoi.

eurovol, Jack didn't serve either, but I sure like what he says here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo&feature=email

You're hopeless. You threw a hand grenade in ROTC and think Jack "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" Nicholson is a military hero.

Ahh. Sorry for being snappy, I was a bit fired up... too much limbaugh-esque dialogue and what not.

The hand grenade was a joke, do I have to spell everything out. How could anyone have taken that comment any other way? Jack isn't a military hero, just liked the words in the speech he gives in the movie.

Now, one last time. WHEN DID OBAMA SERVE THE U.S. MILITARY?. McCain served and since military service trumps all else for eurovol then that means that Obama isn't as fit to be commander in chief as McCain. Not only did McCain serve in the military he got a life long momento from the experience, namely to this day he can't raise his arms above shoulder level.

It appears that Pa Eurovol served in the Tennessee legislature for three terms as a Democrat.

He's far right I believe so the arm issue may turn out to be a problem in many American states.

What are momentos? Is there a shorter form?

Yes, McCain has been so loyal to his country and countrymen.

Then why, I ask, has his record shown that he has ignored and not supported legislature regarding Veterans? That would be at the forefront of any signed bill if the talk wasn't all GOP rhetoric about supporting the troops. Fact is, Obama makes it clear that he respects that McCain served in the military, but I find it ironic that anyone would care to use that as a benchmark for proving what a 'man' McCain is or how he is the 'better' person to become president. If a POW can't even show support to other Vets, then what does THAT say about the character of that person? Not much.

I would suggest you use another benchmark. Military servce doesn't quite cut it and McCain would do well not to tout it less his voting record be called on. Or has it been already?

One of my grandfathers got malaria, shrapnel in his face, and bayoneted in the testicles in WW2, the other got shot down and put in a kraut prison camp. Not in a million years would I trust either of them to run for political office.

Being unlucky in a war doesn't qualify you for anything.

I admire your grandfather's testicles, lilplatinum. They've shown some serious strength of character. Considering what they've gone through, yet still being able to provide offspring. Maybe I wouldn't vote for your grandfather, but I would certainly vote for his testicles.

Slowcal... good to see the College Republicans' message is still alive and well. Keep up the good fight. The underdog conservative views of the right's freedom fighters will one day overcome all of their hardships to expose campuses as the commie-nurturing hotbeds that they are. Your fellow patriots are proud (even if you did bail on the ROTC because there was no money in it).

Yeah, fathering 5 children after that is surely more impressive than Mccain's sob story.

Then how does the alleged irrelevance of McCain's military service make Obama a better candidate?

I wasn't saying it does, I don't have a pony in this race.

It doesn't, Jules. I think it's a non-issue.

Where was this argument for McCain eight years ago against Bush?

Possibly the best post in this thread.


Best to make it clear that his posts are like that, otherwise he'll shout "personal attack". It's fine to discuss the post itself however. e.g. "This post is so wrong, only a complete moron could post it." You see, I'm criticizing the post. Your post I find to be rather spot on.


Funny, as a scientist, you should probably know the role statistics play on large numbers. People are your numbers here, and so there will always exist a statistical probability of people with low IQ, just as there are some with high IQ. In effect, many people simply aren't capable of being smart. So as a smart person, presumably you have more "power", and with that comes responsibility, so therefore in my view, you should have compassion for these people, and not declare a borderline handicap a sin. Your problem should be with those who seek to manipulate these people.

Some of your posts are spot on, some are clearly partisan rants, but in the US everything is really set up to be black or white, so I can't blame you. Whoever labeled me an Obama supporter was pretty stupid (sorry, the content of your post was stupid) - you only get 1 of 2 choices! So call me a "leaner" who can't vote anyway. That's what makes your political system broken and sick. 2 sides in a country of around 300m people? No wonder it's a mud-slinging, battle for power. You're with us, or you're against us. That's all you're allowed over there. No wonder politicians close to election day start saying whatever so they get elected. They have to, because of people like all of you who go nitpicking through every little petty detail and listen for keywords (such as church, and morals. The devil also believes in the existence of god you know). America isn't ready for mature politics. These forums sound like school yard bickering to the teacher:

-Hey, it's not my fault!
-Well, yeah, but he said that blah blah.
-No, that's not true!
-Yes it is.
-No. Well you said "blah blah blah" and we all know that Lizzie's a bitch, so how can that be true?
-Lizzie's not a bitch, you're a bitch.
- Bitch
- Shut up
- No you shut up

and so on.

Now, time to rip this to shreds.

I know, I wish we had honest politicians like... wait I'm thinking... maybe in Candyland where the honest poltiicans civilly debate in the gumdrop forrest.

You're a leaner who can't vote anyway! Your opinions are uninformed and biased. They're also made irrelevant by the first part, I'm trying to think of some critcism of the canadian system, but I never hear anything about the place or their political system. Do they have elections there? Never heard anyone talking about them, no body....no where.......ever.

Canada really only has 3 significant parties... well 4, I forgot about the Quebec separatist nutters.

We discussed your interpretation of McCain's position on the revised GI Bill some time back, and I pointed out several things that you had not considered or were not aware of which show that his position was not as you describe it. I also posted polling results that showed a 58-37% advantage for McCain among veterans.

Yes, there has been commentary on McCain's voting record pertaining to veterans' issues. Judging from the aforementioned poll results, apparently a majority of veterans don't find claims such as yours credible. Analyzing legislative votes in the US Senate can be rather complicated, e.g., John Kerry's "I was for it before I was against it". It is probably too much trouble for people who already have their hearts set against McCain to actually bother to look at why he took the stances he did and why he cast the votes he did. Presumably John McCain knows more about the military than Barack Obama.

As to the comment that "military service doesn't quite cut it" it seems to me that Obama doesn't have anything substantive of his own to show he is "the better person".


Your example would still be a personal attack, something you can't seem to get out of your system.


Au contraire- there are a number of minor party candidates if a voter wants to vote for them on principle.

Once again, calling a person who sees you as an Obama supporter "stupid" is a personal attack.

How about this, horseshoe- if you could vote in the US Presidential Election in 2008, would you vote for Barack Obama, and do you want to see him win?

@Conquistador - Is this some attempt on your part to be able to stick a label on me and then demonize/dismiss anything I have to say? In your posts you seem to have a common theme that so-called "Obama supporters" are a bunch of stubborn thugs who don't want to hear anything republicans have to say.

I personally think one of the most reasonable republican debaters here has been gatzke. But I suppose if I can't attack a person, I probably am not allowed to praise a person. That's like saying I'm only allowed to have an opinion in one direction, and that's not free speech.

Regarding voting, the rest of the world would generally agree (ok, europe at least) that Obama's the man. You can argue that these people are victims of misinformation, but I believe we are all victims of misinformation and it drives me a little batty when people declare "they know the truth", or "you are misinformed and biased", when really we must all surely be. I'm not a big fan of petty bickering, which is what one can read in this thread, but then again, when you watch shows like Crossfire on CNN (god bless Jon Stewart on that show BTW), you realize that this must just be the american way of discussion. I don't often see what comes out of it that is productive, but of course, I clearly think differently than many yanks. I was earlier in this thread labeled a socialist for re-iterating the idea that universal healthcare is a good idea, for example. Good f*cking Lord, Karl Marx himself is back from the dead and decided to post on Toytown.

I feel sorry for Obama, that in order to bring his ideas into play, he's gotta get his hands dirty with the old-fashioned way of doing politics in the states, and that means playing to the people a bit, rather than sticking to his guns, because realistically, the general american public couldn't handle it. I've never heard of any other politician really stand for a platform of reform/change and make it believable/achievable, and for me I view America as a strong country, but deeply sick from the inside out. I believe Kitty Kat had some very refreshing comments on the matter. But of course, Americans tend to react first and think later: "How dare you propose that America isn't the greatest country on earth?" This is the thinking that is similar to a leading corporation before it loses its grip. You can only be on top in business if you continue to improve / innovate. America hasn't been doing this, so they shouldn't continue with this "god bless america" crap, until they look at themselves in a sobering light, and assess what needs a real overhaul. I think today's America is still milking the reputation of the prosperous, nuclear family generation, and they no longer have the right to do so. I mean, the "patriots" are doing that. I think the patriots need to wake up and start to think critically.

Just an "uninformed", "biased" guy who just put words to a screen. They can affect you, infuriate you, make you puke, or make you log off, but I don't think that what I've just said is all that unreasonable.

Your good points are overshadoweded by your gaping overgeneralizations of 300 million people. And when people take the bait and comment on your gross overgeneralizations you then propose that as evidence that the other 299,999,999 of that persons fellow countrymen are overreactive.

Picking one television show out of the thousands aired that day and using it as a representative of millions of peoples psyches is equally specious.

Criticise America's system all you want, I agree we're pretty fucked up at the moment. But don't act like you are an expert enough student of humanity that you can paint millions of non homogenous people with one brush stroke.

I'm sorry, is there any way to talk about 300m people without it being overgeneralized??

Horseshoe was asked two simple questions in my previous post in order to clarify whether or not he supports Barack Obama. Instead of answering the questions, he posted this:

Given horseshoe's unwillingness to answer the two simple questions, we have to rely on previous statements he has made about Obama and McCain:



In light of the above posts and ones horseshoe has made criticizing Republicans, I don't think it's "stupid" to infer that horseshoe supports Obama. Horseshoe was given a chance to clarify whether or not he is a supporter of Obama, so if he declines the chance to do so, it's entirely reasonable to look at his own previous comments.

Not really, which is why you should try to avoid assigning character traits to mass groups of people and comment on poltiics instead.

But, you are probably confused by playing too much ice hockey and eating too much poutine - thats what Canadians tend to do, right

I brought up McCain's military service simply because eurovol tried to use his own service in the Navy to marginalize my positions on U.S. history since WW II. He seemed to think that because I hadn't served in the military my opinions on events like the Korean war and Vietnam weren't relevant. So I find it interesting that he is supporting the candidate to be commander in chief who also hasn't served in the military while there is a TRUE war hero running. I was having fun pointing out eurovol's hypocrisy

I don't support McCain and won't vote for him (I'm not voting for the other guy either, I'm voting independent) but anyone who denigrates his service for political reasons is beyond disgusting. He spent over five years at the Hanoi Hilton. None of you would have been able to endure that treatment.

Especially because I was an unfertalized egg at the time.

Nobody's dismissing his service. And nobody's dismissing his service for political reasons. Am I missing something? Who is?

He is a true stud to put up with what he did and make it out, but honestly, that doesn't even make him the best candidate to mow my lawn.

IMHO, McCain is a hero because he did not take the opportunity offered him by the North Vietnamese to be released (since they would only release him and not all others held). He suffered excruciating physical and psychological pain because he did the right thing, kept solidarity with his fellow POWs and prevented the North Vietnamese from using him as a propaganda pawn. Just imagine what the effect on the morale of POWs would have been if he had accepted the offer of release.

He is a hero. No question.

e-mails are circulating calling him a hero and Obama a whimp, because he never served. I don't think it matters. But if it does, where was this argument eight years ago? Some dude that owned a baseball team and dreamed of being the commissioner was able to prove he was more worthy of the position of president.

This posting is so absurd. Yeah right, McCain doesn't support Vets. Give me a proverbial break!!! Who knows what legislature this person is talking about. These days all kinds of pork crap is thrown in to good legislation which forces politicians to vote against otherwise good law. Everyone knows this. One thing is for sure, if McCain had given a speech in Berlin he would have had the good sense to go visit the wounded vets at the hospital in Wiesbaden.

The only reason why Bush became the Republican candidate in 2000 was name recognition. In politics there isn't anything more important than that. They needed someone who could beat Gore and they didn't have anyone with as much name recognition. This is also why Obama gave that speech at the 2004 Democratic convention. It was to introduce this unknown to the country.

Conquistador, if you already knew the answers to your questions then why did you ask?

Why do you launch an offensive on me because you can't take any criticism of yourself? I, in my short history on TT, have never seen you let one comment about you go. You always have some sort of rebuttal. Some sort of last word. Weird. Maybe you should go talk to someone about that - improve yourself somehow.

Just drop it. I already said I'd rather just move on and have a (somewhat) constructive conversation. Like, tell me why you have to establish my political allegiance for example. What purpose does that serve?

@lilplatinum - of course that's all we do. Hockey playing, poutine eating, joint smoking, "terrorist" harbouring, moonshine drinking polarbear f*ckers. Wow, I'm so offended. You made a generalization. So did I. I thought everyone knew what a generalization is and what it implies. Is it wrong to state an impression you get from people? Is that any less valid? Are you actually assuming I base my impressions on one episode of Crossfire? Jeez. It's this kind of nitpicking pettiness that really gets annoying.

Keep picking away if you have to, or filter out what you see as rubbish, and take the words that leave an impression and have stimulated thought (as we do with eurovol), make you realize things you haven't thought of before. That's what a forum like this is for (for me anyway) - to exchange ideas, not to prove beyond any doubt who is right. Then what? You get a trophy?

Moving on, could somebody explain how being a war hero makes one a good presidential candidate? The ability to withstand pain and torment from people who don't like you? Is that what it's about? I don't see the connection between war hero and statesman. It's just one of many paths that could enable one to be effective. It's no guarantee.

Why are you nitpicking my response to you, you Canadians are so reactive.. Take a deep breath and think on what you are talking aboot, eh?

(Actually the point of a forum like this is to amuse yourself at work)

i agree with you there lilplatinum.

The absurdity lies in the fact that there are actually people who think McCain's military service is reason enough to vote him president. On just that point, I made mention of his voting record, I don't necessarily feel the need to make a dramatic list of the Veteran's bills he never supported, but as a point, I hardly think increasing funding of Veteran's Services is considered 'pork crap'... but whatever.


And this even before Obama visited troops in Iraq.

Your important point, IF McCain Had ... unfortunately it is not McCain's strong suit, he's better in town hall meetings.

Horseshoe, you are a fine one to talk about offensives given your repeated personal attacks on this and other threads and your constant insults of the US. I wanted to give you a chance in your own words to state clearly whether or not you support Obama because you stated that a person would be stupid to think you were and that comment does not chime with earlier comments you made. Why call someone stupid for inferring what is pretty obvious? That's your own fault for posting such a thing.

As for "not letting things go" you are in no position to lecture anyone given your refusal to move on from launching personal attacks on me. That I defend myself from your personal attacks and those of others is necessitated by the vitriol those who have political differences with me direct at me. They have also sometimes libeled me, and I see no reason to take that simply to please you, a person who repeatedly attacks me and my country.

Given your complaints about my comments on Obama supporters while you concurrently and repeatedly make some awful comments about all Americans, you live in a glass house and should stop throwing rocks.

If you don't like me and don't like the US, I would suggest that you refrain from posting on these US political threads. That you continue to do so and shown your own desire to have the last word proves you are in need of looking in the mirror and taking your own advice. I'm all for moving on from the rubbish you post and getting back on-topic.

KK, your comments on McCain and funding for veterans' benefits makes a lot of implied assumptions. Think about this hypothetical example, if I proposed to give every veteran a $500,000 bonus after three years of service, would you be anti-veteran or anti-veterans' benefits for opposing it?

So, if I prefer Obama over McCain, am I a supporter? Because I prefer Obama over McCain, but am avoiding your "title" of supporter, as you seem to demonize such people as leftist thugs. I don't appreciate this thinking in absolutes. i am perfectly open to being swayed by McCain, but I just haven't heard anything yet that strikes a chord. So to say that I'm a die-hard, narrow-minded, and deaf supporter is a bit unfair.

Furthermore, you've somehow misunderstood criticism to be insults, and criticism to be an attack. It's a random dude with an opinion/criticism, not an attack. Sorry.


No, sorry, in fact it doesn't prove anything. It "proves" what you say it does, but doesn't prove anything. I enjoy this forum for 2 reasons - 1) to get a better impression of the american mentality, and 2) to see if it's in any way possible to influence it. I have just as much right to be here as you. I write back to you because you misrepresent my words and I feel it necessary to put that right. If you would stop doing that, you wouldn't hear much from me. But anyway, stop. Stop now. You win, if it'll make you feel better. Just stop. It's a neurotic tick. Stop already. Stop.

Nope, no ones dismissed his service at all, that was a thought the OP interjected into the exchange.

TWIST ALERT! Horseshoe claims that I have "demonized Obama supporters as `thugs´". When exactly did I do that, horseshoe?

Horseshoe, are you a supporter of Barack Obama? You sure seem to be one.

What horseshoe has directed at me are in fact insults, but, once again, let's move on, horseshoe. If you think something is neurotic when someone else does it, but justified when you do, it's time for a reality check.

Wouldn't an American forum be a better place to practice these goals? Expats are hardly the average American. The average American (and Canadian) doesn't own a passport.

The numbers of passport holders are going up now, though, since US citizens now need a passport even to travel to Canada, Mexico, or the Carribean.


Neither of these guys is the best candidate, they're just the ones who got the nomination this time.


Can we all finally agree that military service is irrelevant to one's qualifications for the White House, then?

I can't wait till Obama announces his running mate (possibly today.) Then we can discuss something substantive.

That's extremely convenient. I assume that character building recreational drug use, community activism in which Allah only knows what was accomplished, and barely two years in the US Senate are?