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U.S. Presidential Election 2008

McCain-Palin vs. Obama-Biden

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > Themes > International affairs
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clrbluesky
QUOTE (TexMunich @ Aug 5 2008, 4:27 pm) *
Could someone please explain how a windfall profits tax is supposed to work?

Funny, the Wall Street Journal asked the same thing yesterday. I'm going to be upfront and say that this is a conservative editorial, but I think you'll find it interesting:

What Is A 'Windfall' Profit? - Wall Street Journal, Aug. 4, 2008

QUOTE
The "windfall profits" tax is back, with Barack Obama stumping again to apply it to a handful of big oil companies. Which raises a few questions: What is a "windfall" profit anyway? How does it differ from your everyday, run of the mill profit? Is it some absolute number, a matter of return on equity or sales -- or does it merely depend on who earns it?

Enquiring entrepreneurs want to know. Unfortunately, Mr. Obama's "emergency" plan, announced on Friday, doesn't offer any clarity. To pay for "stimulus" checks of $1,000 for families and $500 for individuals, the Senator says government would take "a reasonable share" of oil company profits.

Mr. Obama didn't bother to define "reasonable," and neither did Dick Durbin, the second-ranking Senate Democrat, when he recently declared that "The oil companies need to know that there is a limit on how much profit they can take in this economy." Really? This extraordinary redefinition of free-market success could use some parsing.

Take Exxon Mobil, which on Thursday reported the highest quarterly profit ever and is the main target of any "windfall" tax surcharge. Yet if its profits are at record highs, its tax bills are already at record highs too. Between 2003 and 2007, Exxon paid $64.7 billion in U.S. taxes, exceeding its after-tax U.S. earnings by more than $19 billion. That sounds like a government windfall to us, but perhaps we're missing some Obama-Durbin business subtlety.

Maybe they have in mind profit margins as a percentage of sales. Yet by that standard Exxon's profits don't seem so large. Exxon's profit margin stood at 10% for 2007, which is hardly out of line with the oil and gas industry average of 8.3%, or the 8.9% for U.S. manufacturing (excluding the sputtering auto makers).

If that's what constitutes windfall profits, most of corporate America would qualify. Take aerospace or machinery -- both 8.2% in 2007. Chemicals had an average margin of 12.7%. Computers: 13.7%. Electronics and appliances: 14.5%. Pharmaceuticals (18.4%) and beverages and tobacco (19.1%) round out the Census Bureau's industry rankings. The latter two double the returns of Big Oil, though of course government has already became a tacit shareholder in Big Tobacco through the various legal settlements that guarantee a revenue stream for years to come.

In a tax bill on oil earlier this summer, no fewer than 51 Senators voted to impose a 25% windfall tax on a U.S.-based oil company whose profits grew by more than 10% in a single year and wasn't investing enough in "renewable" energy. This suggests that a windfall is defined by profits growing too fast. No one knows where that 10% came from, besides political convenience. But if 10% is the new standard, the tech industry is going to have to rethink its growth arc. So will LG, the electronics company, which saw its profits grow by 505% in 2007. Abbott Laboratories hit 110%.

If Senator Obama is as exercised about "outrageous" profits as he says he is, he might also have to turn on a few liberal darlings. Oh, say, Berkshire Hathaway. Warren Buffett's outfit pulled in $11 billion last year, up 29% from 2006. Its profit margin -- if that's the relevant figure -- was 11.47%, which beats out the American oil majors.

Or consider Google, which earned a mere $4.2 billion but at a whopping 25.3% margin. Google earns far more from each of its sales dollars than does Exxon, but why doesn't Mr. Obama consider its advertising-search windfall worthy of special taxation?

The fun part about this game is anyone can play. Jim Johnson, formerly of Fannie Mae and formerly a political fixer for Mr. Obama, reaped a windfall before Fannie's multibillion-dollar accounting scandal. Bill Clinton took down as much as $15 million working as a rainmaker for billionaire financier Ron Burkle's Yucaipa Companies. This may be the very definition of "windfall."

General Electric profits by investing in the alternative energy technology that Mr. Obama says Congress should subsidize even more heavily than it already does. GE's profit margin in 2007 was 10.3%, about the same as profiteering Exxon's. Private-equity shops like Khosla Ventures and Kleiner Perkins, which recently hired Al Gore, also invest in alternative energy start-ups, though they keep their margins to themselves. We can safely assume their profits are lofty, much like those of George Soros's investment funds.

The point isn't that these folks (other than Mr. Clinton) have something to apologize for, or that these firms are somehow more "deserving" of windfall tax extortion than Big Oil. The point is that what constitutes an abnormal profit is entirely arbitrary. It is in the eye of the political beholder, who is usually looking to soak some unpopular business. In other words, a windfall is nothing more than a profit earned by a business that some politician dislikes. And a tax on that profit is merely a form of politically motivated expropriation.

It's what politicians do in Venezuela, not in a free country.

EDIT: Sorry that it's such a long quote, but I think you have to have a subscription to WSJ.com to read it normally.
kitty_kat
QUOTE (clrbluesky @ Aug 5 2008, 5:00 pm) *
And I would argue that a lot of America's social problems are related to Democrat policies (e.g. social security and how it's turning into yet another poorly run welfare program).

On Social Security, McCain touts privatizing it, giving the elderly and disabled a percent of their income to invest.

1. You're talking about a population of the public that is vunerable to unscrouplous investors.
2. Insurance protections are threatened
3. Privatization elsewhere in government has been a failed experiment at the expense of the elderly and disabled (most notably-Medicare Part D)
4. Odds are not in favor of the elderly/disabled making wise decisions, no back-up support
5. Wall Street will love the taxes
6. Minorities will be even more vunerable under his plan and increase class divisions
7. No protection from inflation

why I can't support his plan.
Bumpy
QUOTE (horseshoe7 @ Aug 5 2008, 4:21 pm) *
Thanks for your post. I find for me the clear dividing line is universal healthcare. I've always found it strange that when you have an accident, an unplanned for problem, etc. you first have to worry not about if you can survive / will be ok, but whether you can PAY to survive/be ok. Makes any individual a bit more money-hungry, no?

Why stop at healthcare? If my bike is stolen and the police never find the thief, why shouldn't society pay for it?

Read : Moral Hazard.

Ironically, I'm not against universal healthcare - Massachusetts (my home state - a Repuglican gov to boot) instituted it. I support the idea on economic grounds, not moral ones like yourself.

QUOTE (horseshoe7 @ Aug 5 2008, 4:21 pm) *
May I ask why the US being a superpower is so important? How do you define superpower? Does the world need domination and not cooperation? American interests can be preserved without having to rule the world.

If being a superpower alienates the US, is that ok for you?

Guess it's just a cause and effect thing. Millions of people, the world over, flocked (and continue to do so) to America to escape (mostly) European tyranny, war and repression. Maybe you should ask why Canada never atracted so many. Curiously, why do 75% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the god-awful US?

QUOTE (horseshoe7 @ Aug 5 2008, 4:21 pm) *
I would wager the american dollar could have been strong if not for the last round of republicans. I would argue a lot of america's social problems may be related to republican policies (no references, but were they not responsible for HMO's and privatized healthcare screwing Joe Blow because he had a pre-existing condition?)

Well gee, I can't wait till American quarters start circulating in canadian laundrymats, but I'd like to take you up on that unsubstantiated bet.

Canadian friend of mine sent is dad to the US for treatment as he needed to have his knee operated on that week. The waiting list was 6 months in CA.
Not all is perfect in Kanada my Kanuk friend...
Conquistador
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 5 2008, 5:18 pm) *
On Social Security, McCain touts privatizing it, giving the elderly and disabled a percent of their income to invest.

1. You're talking about a population of the public that is vunerable to unscrouplous investors.
2. Insurance protections are threatened
3. Privatization elsewhere in government has been a failed experiment at the expense of the elderly and disabled (most notably-Medicare Part D)
4. Odds are not in favor of the elderly/disabled making wise decisions, no back-up support
5. Wall Street will love the taxes
6. Minorities will be even more vunerable under his plan and increase class divisions
7. No protection from inflation

why I can't support his plan.

I'm pretty sure I corrected someone else on this misrepresentation of claiming "McCain wants to privatize Social Security".

Here is what McCain says:

QUOTE
http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/JobsforAmerica/reform.htm
John McCain supports supplementing the current Social Security system with personal accounts - but not as a substitute for addressing benefit promises that cannot be kept. John McCain will reach across the aisle to address these challenges, but if the Democrats do not act, he will. No problem is in more need of honesty than the looming financial challenges of entitlement programs.

Supplementing does not mean privatization- it means offering other options to people in the current working population, i.e., people paying Social Security taxes (and of these, probably only those under 45) KK, please note that this does not include the disabled, who receive monthly disability checks regardless of age that happened to be issued by Social Security and whose checks would not in any way be affected by supplemental savings options, and the elderly are benefit recipients from Social Security to whom the supplementation of Social Security would not apply- they would continue to receive their checks as always, based upon what they earned during their working years.

As to the other claims made by KK (which flow from her incorrect assumption that McCain wants to completely privatize Social Security):

1. You're talking about a population of the public that is vunerable to unscrouplous investors. They (and anyone else) would be vulnerable no matter what- yet today's elderly and future elderly would continue to receive a Social Security benefit check even if today's workers opt for supplemental savings plans such as 401k plans and IRAs.
2. Insurance protections are threatened How? This vague statement makes no sense. People cannot rely solely on Social Security to fund their retirement even today- supplemental savings are already needed, so why complain about additional savings options?
3. Privatization elsewhere in government has been a failed experiment at the expense of the elderly and disabled (most notably-Medicare Part D) Not familiar with Medicare Part D, but allowing people the option of supplementing Social Security pensions has nothing to do with Medicare (a health insurance for the elderly). Furthermore, people have personal savings, 401k plans, and IRAs, all of which are private and work well.
4. Odds are not in favor of the elderly/disabled making wise decisions, no back-up support That is a potential omnipresent problem, with or without supplemental savings options. Don't you help elderly family members with these sorts of things?
5. Wall Street will love the taxes What do you mean by this? Future retirees opting to supplement Social Security could put their money in Certificates of Deposit, which yield more than Social Security.
6. Minorities will be even more vunerable under his plan and increase class divisions How do more savings options for all Americans increase class divisions? How exactly would minorties be "even more vulnerable" with supplemental savings options that they could anyhow decide not to use?
7. No protection from inflation Inflation is a threat to everyone's savings, and that includes Social Security benefits. This is why I suggest Certificates of Deposit for the elderly. COLA adjustments that don't reflect true inflation can be done by the government at any time, so the idea that the government can and will always protect you from inflation is completely illusory. Furthermore, even if it could, inflation would remain a problem for personal savings.

KK, I don't know where you got this from, but it badly misepresents McCain's position on Social Security, and I see some very dubious conclusions being drawn by you.
eurovol
QUOTE (Conquistador @ Aug 5 2008, 5:44 pm) *

Funny how you can link to McCain's website as the truth, but all be damned if anyone links to a partisan or not partisan but you perceive it as such site. Who is the HYPOCRITE?
eurovol
QUOTE (Bumpy @ Aug 5 2008, 5:42 pm) *
Ironically, I'm not against universal healthcare - Massachusetts (my home state - a Repuglican gov to boot) instituted it. I support the idea on economic grounds, not moral ones like yourself.

Glad to know my opinion of you is well founded.
kitty_kat
Excuse me.

Have I not just stated why I will not support McCain's privatizing of Social Security?

You don't have to agree, you don't have to like it, you don't have respond to it.

I have personal experience in working within the elderly public sector, so what I say, is what I have seen and experienced. Privatizing is a nice theory, and political ploy set up to entice thousands of Americans to fail. Corporate loves it, but it doesn't and has not worked sucessfully for the average middle class/working poor American (the make-up of my clientele). It is a really bad idea and I will not support.

Dubious or not ... I have my training and career in the Public Sector to base my experience on. You have google, on McCain's own site no less ... as though definitive answers will be found there.

QUOTE
Bi-partisanship in budget efforts. Much as the late 1990s witnessed bipartisan efforts to put the fiscal house in order, bi-partisan efforts will be the key to undoing the recent spending binge.

From McCain's site... and just how will this man encourage bipartisan support? By executive order like Bush? One has to wonder about these things. And I strongly have my doubts.
Conquistador
QUOTE (eurovol @ Aug 5 2008, 5:57 pm) *
Funny how you can link to McCain's website as the truth, but all be damned if anyone links to a partisan or not partisan but you perceive it as such site. Who is the HYPOCRITE?

I would want to get a policy proposal from the horse's mouth, especially when a third party posts misinformation about a policy that does not in fact exist. Surely you would agree that John McCain's official website is a valid representation of the candidate's position. On the matter of opinion polls, a website that links to one controlled by Democrats Abroad cannot be assumed to be an impartial source.

Let me ask you this, eurovol, do you think KK is a better source for McCain's policy proposals than the candidate's official website?

KK, I don't know why you continue to falsely claim "that McCain wants to privatize Social Security" when I have shown that is clearly not the case. You are opposing a phantom policy that does not in fact exist. Think about this- what would you think if I said that I was opposed to Obama's plans for nuclear war with Russia? You'd say that there is no such proposal or plan, and of course there isn't. Much the same with your imagined McCain privatization policy. Of course, informed TTers will know that any privatization of Social Security would have to be approved by Congress, not by presidential fiat, and Congress would obviously not approve such a plan.

BTW, I have every right to comment on what you post, KK, and if you post something that badly misrepresents where McCain stands on an issue you can expect me to correct you.
kitty_kat
QUOTE (Conquistador @ Aug 5 2008, 6:13 pm) *
I would want to get a policy proposal from the horse's mouth, especially when a third party posts misinformation about the policy. Surely you would agree that John McCain's official website is a valid representation of the candidate's position. On the matter of opinion polls, a website that links to one controlled by Democrats Abroad cannot be assumed to be an impartial source.

Let me ask you this, eurovol, do you think KK is a better source for McCain's policy proposals than the candidate's official website?

KK, I don't know why you continue to falsely claim "that McCain wants to privatize Social Security" when I have shown that is clearly not the case. You are opposing a phantom policy that does not in fact exist. Think about this- what would you think if I said that I was opposed to Obama's plans for nuclear war with Russia? You'd say that there is no such proposal or plan.

McCain On Social Security

"But I'm not for quote privatizing Social Security, I never have been, I never will be." [New Hampshire Town Hall, 06/12/08]

"Without privatization, I don't see how you can possibly, over time, make sure that young Americans are able to receive Social Security benefits." [C-Span Road to the White House, 11/18/2004]

So I guess when it comes to judgement calls, you decide.
edit: I am also noting that McCain maybe reluctant to call it privatizing to avoid alienating prime voting targets. So in that case, call it what you want.
Bumpy
QUOTE (eurovol @ Aug 5 2008, 6:01 pm) *
Glad to know my opinion of you is well founded.

QUOTE (eurovol @ Aug 5 2008, 3:45 pm) *
The only real thing you have in your list that is Republican is the private SS accounts and no public healthcare.

Nope. You haven't got a clue.
eurovol
QUOTE (Conquistador @ Aug 5 2008, 6:13 pm) *
I would want to get a policy proposal from the horse's mouth,
...
...
Let me ask you this, eurovol, do you think KK is a better source for McCain's policy proposals than the candidate's official website?

I have posted Obama's site on numerous occasions only to be shot down by you that that is a partisan site. I give you the horse's mouth and you want to make pferdeburger!

KK's interpretation is just as valid as anyone elses. That is the problem with you. Instead of saying, "You know, McCain spoke to this issue and had this to say ...", but no, you want to attack the messanger and call her a cultist or some other "alllowed" insult and attack.

I tell you and everyone else again and again, I am not the official spokesperson for the Obama campaign. I am a Democrat and I try my best to do my best in my capacity. I don't use my position(s) to state anything outside the scientific arena. Politics is opinion, science is truth. I can keep the two separated, why can't you?
TexMunich
QUOTE (clrbluesky @ Aug 5 2008, 5:05 pm) *
Funny, the Wall Street Journal asked the same thing yesterday. I'm going to be upfront and say that this is a conservative editorial, but I think you'll find it interesting:

What Is A 'Windfall' Profit? - Wall Street Journal, Aug. 4, 2008

EDIT: Sorry that it's such a long quote, but I think you have to have a subscription to WSJ.com to read it normally.

Just got back from playing Baseball. The weather for it was great this evening.

Thanks for the article. It actually creates more questions than it answers.

I was really hoping for some Obama supporters to explain this whole windfall profits tax and oil release from the SPR.
Conquistador
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 5 2008, 6:24 pm) *
McCain On Social Security

"But I'm not for quote privatizing Social Security, I never have been, I never will be." [New Hampshire Town Hall, 06/12/08]

"Without privatization, I don't see how you can possibly, over time, make sure that young Americans are able to receive Social Security benefits." [C-Span Road to the White House, 11/18/2004]

So I guess when it comes to judgement calls, you decide.
edit: I am also noting that McCain maybe reluctant to call it privatizing to avoid alienating prime voting targets. So in that case, call it what you want.

There are judgement calls, and then there are leaps of logic. Perhaps the most bizarre one you made was assuming, based upon the above comment that McCain made in 2004, that he wants in 2008 to privatize disability payments. How in the world can disability payments be "privatized"? They cannot, thus if you thought for some strange reason that was what McCain was talking about, you should do a reality check and ask yourself if such an interpretation makes sense. Disability payments, although administered by the Social Security Administration, are paid from the US Treasury's general funds, not from the Social Security trust funds. What you receive depends on your disability, not on what you contributed in taxes, as is the case with Social Security, the old-age pension. I see you failed to rebut my rebuttal of your "opinion" of McCain's position on Social Security, i.e., your seven "concerns", which incorporated (unecessarily and as pointed out, inaccurately) worries about the disabled.

McCain's 2004 comments do not a policy make, and are anyhow superseded by his 2008 comments. I'd also want to see the entire context of the comments. At worst, you have a flip-flop (rather rich for Obama supporters to complain about that after Saint Barack's flip-flop on telecom immunity). Furthermore, policy positions of politicians can change over time.

QUOTE (eurovol @ Aug 5 2008, 6:32 pm) *
I have posted Obama's site on numerous occasions only to be shot down by you that that is a partisan site. I give you the horse's mouth and you want to make pferdeburger!

If it is as you say it is (and I doubt that very much) why don't you post some examples within context? I suspect it's another example of false accusation and misrepresentation on your part.

QUOTE
KK's interpretation is just as valid as anyone elses. That is the problem with you. Instead of saying, "You know, McCain spoke to this issue and had this to say ...", but no, you want to attack the messanger and call her a cultist or some other "alllowed" insult and attack.

That's a flat-out lie. I commented on her (bizarre) interpretation of McCain's comments on Social Security. Clear your head and read what I posted in response to her. Don't lie to yourself. If someone claims that McCain wants to privatize disability payments, that is a statement of fact, not an opinion, and there was no basis to actually think that. Then put that false statement of fact within the context of KK's constant slander of McCain. Yes, she deserves to be called out on that.

QUOTE
I tell you and everyone else again and again, I am not the official spokesperson for the Obama campaign. I am a Democrat and I try my best to do my best in my capacity. I don't use my position(s) to state anything outside the scientific arena. Politics is opinion, science is truth. I can keep the two separated, why can't you?

In a discussion about the presidential election, the fact that someone is an Obama supporter cannot be separated, nor do they need to be. How many times have you shown you cannot separate these things? Plenty of times. As for opinion, nice of you to admit that plays a strong role in politics, although that's inconsistent with your position in previous exchanges we have had. It's not as if facts are never cited when discussing political opinions, e.g., KK's misrepresentation on Social Security disability payments.

Given what Obama supporters post on this thread, my observation is that they are delusional and dishonest. Don't like it? Too bad- your posts show just that.
Jules Winnfield
I suggest that we get rid of the two-term limit immediately to allow President Obama to run for and win the presidency for as long as he is alive.

@conquistador
Get with the program, buddy. Don't you realize that all this ludicrous "personal attack" chickenshit is being turned into a federal case because you're not posting what the mob would like you to post? Start blindingly kissing Obama's ass and you'll be the prom king before you know it.
kitty_kat
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Aug 6 2008, 12:39 am) *
I suggest that we get rid of the two-term limit immediately to allow President Obama to run for and win the presidency for as long as he is alive.

@conquistador
Get with the program, buddy. Don't you realize that all this ludicrous "personal attack" chickenshit is being turned into a federal case because you're not posting what the mob would like you to post? Start blindingly kissing Obama's ass and you'll be the prom king before you know it.

now that's just silly ... and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.
Obama leads Nationally ... 47 to 41
Conquistador
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 12:46 am) *
Don't disagree on specifics, who are you to 'correct' my thought process...my opinions...? Get the point? They are MY OPINIONS, if I care to debate the worthiness of my thinking tank to you, I will entertain it. If not, then take it for what it is, and move on to the next topic.

the olive branch is hanging precariously, but i may be able to catch it.

Even if you post an opinion, I don't see why it's a problem if I disagree with it; however, the way you post is usually not the way an opinon is written, e.g., Barack is... JMC is... instead of I think..., IMHO, I believe, etc.

Back to more substantive issues. Here is a NYT article on Barry O's fundraising:

QUOTE
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/us/polit...undlers.html?hp
Behind those larger donations is a phalanx of more than 500 Obama “bundlers,� fundraisers who have each collected contributions totaling $50,000 or more. Many of the bundlers come from industries with critical interests in Washington.

An analysis of campaign finance records shows that about two-thirds of his bundlers are concentrated in four major industries: law, securities and investments, real estate and entertainment. Lawyers comprise the largest group, numbering roughly 130, with many of them working for firms that also have lobbying arms

His fundraisers invariably say their support for him is not rooted in any kind of promise of access, but rather their belief in him.
Jules Winnfield
biggrin.gif RealClearPolitics has the President-elect leading by 2.8%, which is less than the standard margin of error of 3%. It's a dead heat at best.
kitty_kat
QUOTE (Conquistador @ Aug 6 2008, 12:52 am) *
Even if you post an opinion, I don't see why it's a problem if I disagree with it; however, the way you post is usually not the way an opinon is written, e.g., Barack is... JMC is... instead of I think..., IMHO, I believe, etc.

If it's not quoted or linked, then it is my personal opinion. It's standard on every board I text on, if it's not as clear here, then knowing creates an understanding.
kitty_kat
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Aug 6 2008, 12:53 am) *
RealClearPolitics has the President-elect leading by 2.8%, which is less than the standard margin of error of 3%. It's a dead heat at best.

Well if you insist on using margin of error... rolleyes.gif
Look, you guys probably aren't bad guys, (maybe?) but online, it's a different monster altogether.
And on that note ... I'm out. Checking tomorrow to see/read/write the lastest.
Jules Winnfield
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 1:06 am) *
Well if you insist on using margin of error...

The point is that the race is even, whether you like it or not, and regardless of the propaganda that you post on the site, or that similarly, we get in the media. Just like in the nomination process previously when we were supposed to believe that Obama was leading Clinton by twenty-five percentage points, which was nowhere near being the case, we are now being told that the former is hammering McCain, which once again, is simply not the case! I honestly think that you are setting yourself up for a major disappointment come November, and I hope for your own sake that the Obama campaign is not as over-confident about winning the election as you are. Remember, the higher you climb, the harder you fall.

QUOTE
Look, you guys probably aren't bad guys, (maybe?) but online, it's a different monster altogether.

Who said anyone was a bad person around here? Why do you have to demonize people who simply don't think that Barack Obama is God's gift to the earth? 99.9% of what I have written on these electoral threads has been in reaction to the endless pro-Obama publicity that you and your ilk have posted. You and Eurovol should try not posting on these topics for a couple of days - they'd pretty much be dead...
Aschaffenburgboy
Republicans represent mainstream America and hillbillies, and Democrats are more the lower and middle class choice. Now the problem is this, we have all these ignant (not ignorant) people in love with the "cowboy diplomacy", tough talk, war hero crap, horse humping ideals, "America is the best nation on the earth" mindset, close minded people, that refuse to give a chance to new ideas and ideals.

In my opinion, you have to stupid blind, or unwilling to see how the Republicans are all about big oil and guns. Look at the shet we are dealing with now, Bush and Penis, they came from oil b4 they got to were they are now, and people are surprised that Exxon-Mobil made record profits last year? Come one Hillbillies, is time to stop eating that corn, and try some potatoes.

Republicans don't want to bring all the troops back home, who owns the companies that support those troops overseas? One of them is own by our most beloved Penis, the vice president, the rest, you can link to them back to republicans also. Do Republicans really want to protect the best interest of the nation, or their personal best interest? Having spent a nice long vacations in Iraq & the Stan, it is funny how they control those times of "improvement" and the chaotic times when everything is getting out of control. Election time comes, or they want to push some new agenda, they will either order the troops to stay inside camp and conduct minimal ops, to bring the number down, or they will push them to the street, and make sure they get one day of sleep a week, in order to make more chaos happen.

Why is it that you think that the US commanders in Afghanistan don't burn all the poppy fields? They need an enemy to combat, without the drug money, the "terrorists" wont have any funds, without any terrorists there will no reason for us to stay there, without the US being there, they will not be able to keep building that Oil pipeline that is coming down from the stans (Kazakhstan, Kajikistan, Pakistan, Afghanistan) in order for the Republicans to ship that oil to world markets and keep making profits.

Republican.. they should just call themselves LMP = Legalized Mafia Party.
horseshoe7
QUOTE (clrbluesky @ Aug 5 2008, 5:00 pm) *
I would like the US to remain a superpower so that it can maintain its influence in the world. I agree with the US's founding ideas of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and would like a country that supports such ideals to be a key player in world politics/economics.

Life, Liberty, Pursuit of happiness. Of course this sounds good. But before the US goes international with this one, could you tell me how the US' own people have this? I mean, there are many people in the US unable to have these things because they are unable to get ahead, due to classic sociological factors of race, class, or gender. For example, "I would love to go take a holiday with the money I saved this year, except oh crap, my daughter just had quite the stomach flu and the doctor's bills pretty much killed that one." Or, "I can't pursue happiness because I'm too busy working 2-3 jobs for peanuts to make ends meet".

I suppose the thing about public healthcare is if the additional tax dollars it would require would be less per person than insurance fees and deductibles, then it would make sense. From an ethical standpoint, I could never understand how people could think that a private, for-profit organisation can be good for an individual's quality of care. I can see how privatisation can cut down levels of bureaucracy and boost a bit of efficiency, but if you're running an organisation to make money, and have shareholders to answer to, you are no longers serving patients, you are serving shareholders. If it were not private, you would run the thing to break-even, meaning, even if you used a for-profit model, you would take these winnings and re-invest them in your own system, resulting in better care for the patient, no?

QUOTE (clrbluesky @ Aug 5 2008, 5:00 pm) *
International cooperation is great, but incredibly idealistic and often not the most efficient means of solving a problem (note the UN's ability to disarm Iran).

I think the UN is only as influential as people invest into it. The US has become famous in recent times for its unilateral solutions thereby undermining the purpose of the UN. So it's sort of a chicken and the egg problem. Another example was on BBC news today, where I read the Texans put a mexican prisoner to death, despite the UN trying to plead for clemency, due to a breach of a Vienna convention. The answer was to the effect of "you don't have jurisdiction. we don't have to listen to you." Zap. (well, plunge)
horseshoe7
QUOTE (Bumpy @ Aug 5 2008, 5:42 pm) *
Why stop at healthcare? If my bike is stolen and the police never find the thief, why shouldn't society pay for it?

Curiously, why do 75% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the god-awful US?

Canadian friend of mine sent is dad to the US for treatment as he needed to have his knee operated on that week. The waiting list was 6 months in CA.
Not all is perfect in Kanada my Kanuk friend...

No, not all is perfect anywhere I think. Didn't quite get the connection between staying alive (heathcare) and staying fit (bike), so I'll just leave that.

why do 75% of us live near the border? Easy. We all love you. We want to send you gifts of terror. But no, we don't like shagging the natives of the north is why. They smell like fish. No. Dude, it's cold up there and it gets colder the further north you go. that's why.

Regarding the last bit. True. Often the waitlists are prioritized. I personally haven't had that experience and have rarely been in a hospital, and when yes it was fairly speedy. I mean, wait an hour, then have treatment. I've heard these stories. I suppose if you're rich enough, whichever healthcare system you have won't matter because you can pay for it. But if you can't, a longer waitlist where you don't have to pay is likely better than not being able to get into any waitlist at all. Sure, a tradeoff, but the person voted as the most significant canadian ever (voted in Maclean's magazine, kind of like a Canadian newsweek), was a middle-leaning politician named Tommy Douglas, who said "The measure of a society is how you take care of your poorest of citizens", and was responsible for initiating public healthcare in the 1950's. So, if you can have a large part of the population vote for him, it probably has some significance as to how good it would be to have something like that in the US. That and all of the rest of the modern western world having something similar. As such, I can never understand the resistance against public healthcare from americans. and if they do resist it, are they poor?
TexMunich
QUOTE (horseshoe7 @ Aug 6 2008, 9:42 am) *
The answer was to the effect of "you don't have jurisdiction. we don't have to listen to you." Zap. (well, plunge)

Obviously you don't quite understand America and the US justice system. Here are two important quotes.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/05/scotus...tion/index.html

For all you Bush unilateral bashers - He gave in to the international court's conclusions.

"Bush said he disagreed with the international court's conclusions, but agreed to comply with them. In a February 28, 2005, executive order, he said, "The United States will discharge its international obligations ... by having state courts give effect to the decision in accordance with general principles of comity in cases filed by the 51 Mexican nationals addressed in that decision.""

But, he doesn't run the Judiciary.

"Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for a 6-3 majority that the international court's judgments cannot be forced upon individual states. The president also cannot "establish binding rules of decision that pre-empt contrary state law," he said, and the treaty itself does not specifically require states to remedy any treaty violations."

FYI - A 6-3 majority in the US Supreme Court means the decision wasn't even close. There was general agreement between conservative and liberal judges appointed and approved by both Republican and Democratic Presidents and Senates. Even the current Democratically controlled Congress wasn't going to go along with the international court.

I'm sure Senator Obama would agree. You won't find many Americans who would subjugate their legal system to the international court.
horseshoe7
my point was about the effectiveness of the UN. I think that if you don't support it, it's influence weakens. It's america's business what they want to do internally with the issue. At the end of the day, the UN requested them to do something and they didn't. They're obviously not obliged to and I'm in no way judging them, but of course it then becomes easier to say the UN is a useless organisation.

I'm not bashing any party in particular, and am not condemning the US for putting those people to death. That wasn't the topic of my post and don't care to make it one.
kitty_kat
QUOTE
DES MOINES, Iowa - Republican presidential candidate John McCain opposes the $300 billion farm bill and subsidies for ethanol, positions that both supporters and opponents say might cost him votes he needs in the upper Midwest this November.


QUOTE
McCain instead has promised to open new markets abroad for farmers to export their commodities.



QUOTE
Sen. John McCain made clear today that he is not comfortable with subsidies for solar power, though he has supported incentives for nuclear power plants and thinks more federal support is needed to encourage the industry.

McCain would rather encourage the growth and expansion of nuclear energy than solar and alternative energy. He claims solar incentives are a "waste" and with nuclear plants becoming more "clean" he'd perfer that the "federal government invest in research and development" for Solar instead. In addition, because the farm bill includes subsidies for ethanol, he calls it "a $300 billion, bloated, pork-barrel-laden bill"

This is not the way to prove you have Green credentials or that you have any intentions of steering the country to less dependency on oil. Families and small businesses across the US are trying to do the right thing by recycling, composting, installing solar panels ie...trying to be more Eco friendly and what McCain has told them is that your efforts don't matter, I perfer nuclear energy and that is where I will place my efforts.

I don't agree with his position because he's pandering to the conservative GOP and big business. We see this in the GOP insisting that Pelosi have a vote on oil drilling even though Congress is out of session until September. And I simply do not agree with his agenda.
TexMunich
Is not Obama pandering when he wants a windfall profit tax and the release of oil from the SPR? These are politicians, they are supposed to pander.
gatzke
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 10:52 am) *
This is not the way to prove you have Green credentials or that you have any intentions of steering the country to less dependency on oil. Families and small businesses across the US are trying to do the right thing by recycling, composting, installing solar panels ie...trying to be more Eco friendly and what McCain has told them is that your efforts don't matter, I perfer nuclear energy and that is where I will place my efforts.

So you are mad that McCain supports federal R&D on solar? You would rather he pump federal money into economic subsidies for an industry that maybe 10x less competitive than other energy sources? I personally would rather see clean coal and nuke get a push.

There are lots of things happening in solar R&D. If someone can make it happen economically, the game will shift. But right now, the technology is not developed enough to push money into industrial subsidies IMHO. Nanosolar is the one I keep seeing. If they can deliver on their promises, they won't need subsidies, they will print money.
clrbluesky
The US isn't going to implement energy systems that aren't cost efficient- I think the latest estimates I read about solar energy is that it takes at least 15 years to break even on energy savings versus the cost. That is why only 0.01% of US energy comes from solar panels, a good chunk of which is used to heat swimming pools.

Until solar energy is made more cost effective, nuclear energy will be the best "alternate energy" system to help our oil dependency.

And kk, do you see it as a problem that GOP senators are demanding a vote on oil drilling? Senator Pelosi refused to discuss it for two months and initially barred all Democratic senators from talking about it. I think the Republicans have a right to express their frustrations.
clrbluesky
And I don't know if anyone saw this, but it's hilarious:

Paris Hilton Mocks Self, Announces 2008 Bid in Spoof Ad

From the WSJ Washington Wire blog:

QUOTE
The spot switches then to Hilton, clad in a leopard-print bathing suit, gold heels and pigtails, lounging on a lawn chair. “Hey America, I’m Paris Hilton and I’m a celebrity too – only I’m not from the olden days and I’m not promising change like that other guy,� she says to the camera. “I’m just hot.�

It gets better: “But then that wrinkly white guy used me in his campaign ad, which I guess means I’m running for president. So thanks for the endorsement, white-haired dude. And I want America to know that I’m, like, totally ready to lead.�

Then, Hilton describes a simplified version of the two candidates’ energy plans before pitching her own. “Why don’t we do a hybrid of both candidates’ ideas?� she says, “That way the offshore drilling carries us until the new technologies kick in, which will then create new jobs and energy independence. Energy crisis solved,� she says, concluding: “I’ll see you at the debates, b—–s.�
Conquistador
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 10:52 am) *
McCain would rather encourage the growth and expansion of nuclear energy than solar and alternative energy. He claims solar incentives are a "waste" and with nuclear plants becoming more "clean" he'd perfer that the "federal government invest in research and development" for Solar instead. In addition, because the farm bill includes subsidies for ethanol, he calls it "a $300 billion, bloated, pork-barrel-laden bill"

It's a fact that ethanol subsidies are pork (as are other farm subsidies) plus they have been blamed for the sharp global run-up in prices for some agricultural commodities (and thus consumer food prices) as farmers seeking ethanol subsidies switch over to that production.

This is an example of McCain taking a principled stand, and I think he should get credit for that.

QUOTE
I don't agree with his position because he's pandering to the conservative GOP and big business. We see this in the GOP insisting that Pelosi have a vote on oil drilling even though Congress is out of session until September. And I simply do not agree with his agenda.

Is there anything that McCain supports that you also support? unsure.gif

Nuclear energy is quite eco-friendly. McCain is not a fan of subsidies in general, and that might explain at least part of his opposition for some subsidies.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Aug 5 2008, 11:53 pm) *
RealClearPolitics has the President-elect leading by 2.8%, which is less than the standard margin of error of 3%. It's a dead heat at best.

The CNN poll of polls gives the lead at 5 points
kitty_kat
QUOTE (TexMunich @ Aug 6 2008, 11:01 am) *
Is not Obama pandering when he wants a windfall profit tax and the release of oil from the SPR? These are politicians, they are supposed to pander.

Granted. The concern I have is that McCan claims he's got an 'all of the above' energy plan. My sketicisim shows in that it is not an 'all the above' approach if you reject 1. everything alternative or 2. plan to implement loosely based laws in a show that you care about the enviornment. I understand that McCain is, ultimately, a Republican and his policies don't match his words.

With Obama's plan, since he's received bipartisan support, I see is as more a feasible and realistic way to go about creating a Greener enviornment. My perception is that it's taken seriously by the Dems and their policies reflect it.
Conquistador
KK, are you aware that the environment has been an important issue for McCain for some time? Just saying he is a Republican as a criticism of his policy doesn't seem as though you actually have an open mind about any of his policies, and suggests that you are not considering them based upon their merits. Someone that wants to fund federal R&D for alternative energy sources doesn't seem to be a person who is against them.

Claiming that Obama's plan has bipartisan support is a statement of fact. Just how much Republican support does Obama have for his plans?

The CNN Poll of Polls does not have a margin of error, and incorporates only four polls.
clrbluesky
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 11:40 am) *
With Obama's plan, since he's received bipartisan support, I see is as more a feasible and realistic way to go about creating a Greener enviornment. My perception is that it's taken seriously by the Dems and their policies reflect it.

Just fyi, Obama is hardly receiving bipartisan support, or at least in the US senate. Since his recent statement that he would support some off-shore drilling, he's upset the congressional Democrats (unless of course they all suddenly have a change of heart when they realize the majority of Americans support more drilling off-shore). And the Republicans are of course upset because he wants to spend $150 billion developing alternate energy technology, a sum both too large for the government to be spending on research and development (rather than having the private sector continuing to look for cost-efficient options) and too small to actually do anything, as close to trillions of dollars would be required to significantly increase solar or wind power.
eurovol
An Obama hymn from Bavaria


smile.gif
kitty_kat
QUOTE (clrbluesky @ Aug 6 2008, 11:30 am) *
The US isn't going to implement energy systems that aren't cost efficient- I think the latest estimates I read about solar energy is that it takes at least 15 years to break even on energy savings versus the cost. That is why only 0.01% of US energy comes from solar panels, a good chunk of which is used to heat swimming pools.

Until solar energy is made more cost effective, nuclear energy will be the best "alternate energy" system to help our oil dependency.

And kk, do you see it as a problem that GOP senators are demanding a vote on oil drilling? Senator Pelosi refused to discuss it for two months and initially barred all Democratic senators from talking about it. I think the Republicans have a right to express their frustrations.

What is cost efficient about dumping a ton of money into nuclear plants when enforcement of 'emissions and gas' will not be regulated? Fine that McCain wants to address Eco/Green concerns, the issue can't be ignored, but his measures don't support the mantra that America will be the world leader of climate change.

Untill... yes, it was 'until' for years now and no one has moved in that direction as yet. When do we plan to make 'until' (an indefinitive suggestion).. to a realistic, "lets start now".

I do see it as a problem, because it's not about supporting the best possible energy program for the Nation, it's the GOP playing politics.
kitty_kat
QUOTE (clrbluesky @ Aug 6 2008, 11:50 am) *
Just fyi, Obama is hardly receiving bipartisan support, or at least in the US senate. Since his recent statement that he would support some off-shore drilling, he's upset the congressional Democrats (unless of course they all suddenly have a change of heart when they realize the majority of Americans support more drilling off-shore). And the Republicans are of course upset because he wants to spend $150 billion developing alternate energy technology, a sum both too large for the government to be spending on research and development (rather than having the private sector continuing to look for cost-efficient options) and too small to actually do anything, as close to trillions of dollars would be required to significantly increase solar or wind power.

The Gang Ten

QUOTE
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A bipartisan group of U.S. lawmakers unveiled legislation on Friday aimed at forging a compromise between Democrats and Republicans deadlocked in the Senate over energy issues.

The legislation focuses on moving Americans to alternative energy, conservation, and increasing domestic oil production.

Opening up more areas for oil production has been a major stumbling block in negotiations to pass energy legislation in Congress.

Republicans support lifting bans on drilling in restricted areas, while Democrats want oil companies to use land already available and favor selling oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

Calling themselves the "Gang of 10," the Senators are trying to bridge that divide.

Since Congress is out of session now, the bill will be centerstage come September.
gatzke
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 11:40 am) *
Granted. The concern I have is that McCan claims he's got an 'all of the above' energy plan. My sketicisim shows in that it is not an 'all the above' approach if you reject 1. everything alternative or 2. plan to implement loosely based laws in a show that you care about the enviornment. I understand that McCain is, ultimately, a Republican and his policies don't match his words.

You were complaining in your previous McCain statement about his support for solar R&D. How is that not alternative energy support? Nuke is CO2 free, so greenies should love it.

As for loose laws, that is up to congress to fix and McCain to sign. "Loose" laws get written by both sides.

QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 11:40 am) *
With Obama's plan, since he's received bipartisan support, I see is as more a feasible and realistic way to go about creating a Greener enviornment. My perception is that it's taken seriously by the Dems and their policies reflect it.

Again, what bipartisan support does BHO have? And which side of his oil drilling plan has bipartisan support?

One reason I don't like McCain is because he has been too good at putting together bipartisian coalitions. It is admirable, but sometimes feared If you like a small federal government.
Conquistador
Is Obama a member of the Gang of 10? I don't think so. Furthermore, they are compromsing to permit offshore drilling, which until very recently Obama opposed altogether. Unless he is a member of the Gang of 10, I don't see how anyone could realistically give the Gang of 10 as an example of bipartisan support for Obama's environmental policy.

Just a reminder, KK, here is what you claimed above:

QUOTE
With Obama's plan, since he's received bipartisan support, I see is as more a feasible and realistic way to go about creating a Greener enviornment. My perception is that it's taken seriously by the Dems and their policies reflect it.

So, what plan are you referring to, KK? Obama's website has his policy position on energy, but I don't see anything about offshore drilling in his policy statement:
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/factsheet_e...eech_080308.pdf

On the topic of ethanol subsidies, this article is of interest:

QUOTE
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10250420
This year the overall decline in stockpiles of all cereals will be about 53m tonnes—a very rough indication of by how much demand is outstripping supply. The increase in the amount of American maize going just to ethanol is about 30m tonnes. In other words, the demands of America's ethanol programme alone account for over half the world's unmet need for cereals. Without that programme, food prices would not be rising anything like as quickly as they have been. According to the World Bank, the grain needed to fill up an SUV would feed a person for a year.

America's ethanol programme is a product of government subsidies. There are more than 200 different kinds, as well as a 54 cents-a-gallon tariff on imported ethanol. That keeps out greener Brazilian ethanol, which is made from sugar rather than maize. Federal subsidies alone cost $7 billion a year (equal to around $1.90 a gallon).

Anyone still think ethanol subsidies are a great idea?
kitty_kat
QUOTE (gatzke @ Aug 6 2008, 12:02 pm) *
You were complaining in your previous McCain statement about his support for solar R&D. How is that not alternative energy support? Nuke is CO2 free, so greenies should love it.

As for loose laws, that is up to congress to fix and McCain to sign. "Loose" laws get written by both sides.

Again, what bipartisan support does BHO have? And which side of his oil drilling plan has bipartisan support?

One reason I don't like McCain is because he has been too good at putting together bipartisian coalitions. It is admirable, but sometimes feared If you like a small federal government.

Hey gatzke, complaining denotes that I am seeking answers/conclusions, I'm looking for neither. So far as McCain's support for solar R&D, depends on if you perfer his agenda over Obama's. If the GOP have not been successful as yet (even in bipartisan support) in creating in reduction of emissions, encouraging renewable energy, making America Greener, enforcing industry to comform, then I have my doubts that they are just speaking to hear themselves talk on an issue that concerns Americans.

QUOTE
The "Gang of 10", headed by Democratic Senator Kent Conrad of North Dakota and Republican Senator Saxby Chambliss of Georgia

They have taken a look at both the energy plans from both candidates and incorporated them into their energy bill proposal. Obama has the support of the Democrates, McCain the GOP. A compromise is possible but the bill will have to wait until September.
gatzke
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 12:36 pm) *
Hey gatzke, complaining denotes that I am seeking answers/conclusions, I'm looking for neither. So far as McCain's support for solar R&D, depends on if you perfer his agenda over Obama's. If the GOP have not been successful as yet (even in bipartisan support) in creating in reduction of emissions, encouraging renewable energy, making America Greener, enforcing industry to comform, then I have my doubts that they are just speaking to hear themselves talk on an issue that concerns Americans.

Sorry to use the inflamatory "complaining". Should have used stated or wrote instead. Apologies. rolleyes.gif

Dems are in control of congress, so you should hold them accountable. They are the ones to blame for not getting your green agenda passed. They need to pass something then have it vetoed so they can point out how evel the pubs are.

Refusing to have a vote on the energy bill seems silly to me, but it would give BHO another chance to show just how liberal he is (as the most liberal senator by voting record). Or maybe he can flip-flop and show how he can "change" to pander to the public?

This congress was elected based on "bring the troops home" platform. Why are they still funding the troops? Why are there no resolutions or motions being passes? Maybe I should support Dems for congress, they can't seem to get anything done.

And the BHO $1000 redistribution of oil wealth is just buying votes. Hopefully the public sees through this in November.
gatzke
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 12:36 pm) *
They have taken a look at both the energy plans from both candidates and incorporated them into their energy bill proposal. Obama has the support of the Democrates, McCain the GOP. A compromise is possible but the bill will have to wait until September.

Forgot your gang of 10 reference. It reminded me of McCain's work against his party in the gang of 14 a few years back.

QUOTE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_14
"While thwarting the goals of their respective party leaderships [1] the group members were hailed as moderates who put aside severe partisanship to do what was best for the Senate."

I don't see how BHO can paint McCain as a third Bush term with this and other centrist issues on the table. Where is BHO's centrist record? All I see are liberal votes from BHO.
http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/
TexMunich
QUOTE (kitty_kat @ Aug 6 2008, 11:40 am) *
I understand that McCain is, ultimately, a Republican and his policies don't match his words.

And Obama, is ultimately a Democrat and his policies don't match his words either.

I'm still waiting on someone to explain how a windfall profits tax and oil released from the SPR are going to help this "energy crisis".
gatzke
QUOTE (TexMunich @ Aug 6 2008, 2:35 pm) *
I'm still waiting on someone to explain how a windfall profits tax and oil released from the SPR are going to help this "energy crisis".

Windfall profits taxation gives BHO a way to buy your vote for only $1000.

SPR release is a way to pander to the oil crisis and increase the supply temporarily, hopefully to drive down prices while simultaneously reducing the robustness of the US to strategic threats.

But remember, McCain's support of solar R&D is not green enough. Reading over his April 2007 speech, he looks pretty middle of the road on energy. And this was before the current oil crisis really hit.

And looking at his platform, it looks like he is happy with solar subsidies. On solar:

QUOTE
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues...ef1468e96f4.htm
John McCain believes in an even-handed system of tax credits that will remain in place until the market transforms sufficiently to the point where renewable energy no longer merits the taxpayers' dollars.
cinzia
QUOTE (clrbluesky @ Aug 6 2008, 11:30 am) *
And kk, do you see it as a problem that GOP senators are demanding a vote on oil drilling? Senator Pelosi refused to discuss it for two months and initially barred all Democratic senators from talking about it. I think the Republicans have a right to express their frustrations.

Fine, they can complain all they want, but when you're the majority party, you own the agenda. Both parties take advantage of that when they have the majority.

QUOTE (gatzke @ Aug 6 2008, 2:04 pm) *
Refusing to have a vote on the energy bill seems silly to me, but it would give BHO another chance to show just how liberal he is (as the most liberal senator by voting record). Or maybe he can flip-flop and show how he can "change" to pander to the public?

This congress was elected based on "bring the troops home" platform. Why are they still funding the troops? Why are there no resolutions or motions being passes? Maybe I should support Dems for congress, they can't seem to get anything done.

Forget about the energy bill this year. It's not the sort of legislation that should be considered a couple of months before a general election.

The Dems are coming off as extremely weak for a "majority" party, which has many of their supporters (including me) very frustrated. Obviously you can't cut off funding for troops overseas in an election year. But don't forget: first, there are "blue dog" Democrats who can be counted on to cross the aisle at least as often as they vote for "their own" party; second, "bipartisanship" in Congress these days usually means that some Democrats vote with the Republicans (blue dogs or not), and not the other way around. The Democrats don't have the numbers to overcome the bleeding at the moment, which is another reason to strengthen their majority in November.
eurovol
QUOTE (TexMunich @ Aug 6 2008, 2:35 pm) *
I'm still waiting on someone to explain how a windfall profits tax and oil released from the SPR are going to help this "energy crisis".

By simultaneously puttng pressure on and stabilizing the markets (its a short term band-aid for a long term problem). Carter introduced the windfall profits tax in 1980 (helped him lose the election) and Reagan benefited from it until he removed it in 1988 (shortly before the election of Bush One I might add). Both sides have used the Strategic Reserve to stabilize the markets during shaky times and pre-election to sway the votes. Obama's calling for release of reserves preempts Bush from releasing them in order to help McCain's election chances. Smart move I might say.

As for the $500 rebate per person idea, it is actually a smart play. Unlike the gas holiday tax, this doesn't affect the at-the-pump taxes that are tied into roadworks and infrastructure for Fed and State projects and proposes a direct way to pay for it up front.

Personally, I would also put a windfall profits tax on the market speculators. Their movements and actions actually play a very direct role in high oil prices beyond supply and demand pressures.
Kommentarlos
Loving Paris Hilton for President laugh.gif

(Scroll to bottom of article for video)

Girl seems to have a very sensible energy policy.
cinzia
Since prices at the pump have been falling the past couple of weeks (extremely unusual in mid-summer), I'm not sure either candidate is going to get much mileage out of short-term fixes for consumer gas prices. The price per gallon here is about 40 cents less than it was mid-July.
kitty_kat
QUOTE (gatzke @ Aug 6 2008, 2:04 pm) *
Sorry to use the inflamatory "complaining". Should have used stated or wrote instead. Apologies.
Dems are in control of congress, so you should hold them accountable. They are the ones to blame for not getting your green agenda passed. They need to pass something then have it vetoed so they can point out how evel the pubs are.
Refusing to have a vote on the energy bill seems silly to me, but it would give BHO another chance to show just how liberal he is (as the most liberal senator by voting record). Or maybe he can flip-flop and show how he can "change" to pander to the public?

This congress was elected based on "bring the troops home" platform. Why are they still funding the troops? Why are there no resolutions or motions being passes? Maybe I should support Dems for congress, they can't seem to get anything done.

And the BHO $1000 redistribution of oil wealth is just buying votes. Hopefully the public sees through this in November.

Dems may control, but I lost count over the years exactly how many bills Bush vetoed that Congress had to override, and how often he's used his Executive Order powers to bypass Congress. Fact is, Bush won't sign anything favorable to the Dems (unless watered down) unless the Democrates force his hand. It has been that way since 2006. So the Democrates have every right to have someone in the Presidential seat that looks favaorable toward their proposals? Don'tcha think?

You see it as silly, I don't. It's an intelligent thing to do whan you know your opposition is trying to get the upperhand (and the public sympathy) in an election year. And yes, it does give the Democrates a nice period of time to hone the energy bill.

Your perception. Mine is, they know the GOP/Bush's agenda and in order to get what their constituents require of them, I'm sure Dems added provisions/conditions to bills (he will sign) to ensure at least some of their proposals are approved. Think of it this way, Government would surely come to a halt if Bush's hand wasn't forced by bipartisanship (on some bills) and the Dems refused to consider any bills he wanted put through. No one wants a government shut down, and both sides need to maintain the image to their constituents (us, the public) that they are looking out for (our) interests, the Nation as a whole, ie. the reason why they were elected to the Seat in the first place. So while I undersand why you see it that way, there's a whole lot more maneuvering and tactical planning behind the scenes that we will never see.
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