U.S. Presidential Election 2008

I thought McCain was too old to even serve one term, let alone wage war for a century. Has he turned into Gandalf all of a sudden?

some blog commentors think he won't live or be healthy enough when the convention rolls around in Sept. That the Republicans will pick another leading contender to take his place. That Obama just needs to focus on beating the Republicans, not just Mcshame.

If McCain made 32 propaganda films for the communists in Viet Nam and one of those surface (they must be out there somewhere).,, watch out..
See here:

"Flip-flop" is so 2004 and passe.
Come up with a better one. Shape-shifter perhaps...mime artist...or Balrog a.k.a Durin's Bane... I don't know...something with a shifty demenour (sp).

@MonksTown
As the mainstream media's political mindset both in the US and Europe is, generally speaking, left of center, it's not surprising that sources like Fox News are feared and/or disliked... In Europe, however, the media's output matches the general population's political mindset matches much more than in the US. As far as the station's popularity is concerned, it's just simple market gap analysis, they provided the product and they are very successful because of it As I always say to people who foam at the mouth at the mere mention of Fox: if you don't want to watch it, switch channels. I dislike characters like Hannity as much as Olbermann because I find that they are basically rabble-rousing ego maniacs who are more interested in hearing the sounds of their own voices than in mature poltical discourse.


It's interesting that you bring up the corruption and nepotism which are allegedly is rife in Illinois. One wonders how someone like Obama came out of nowhere to become a star so quickly? Hint, hint... I suggest that you read up on this. There's an excellent Chicago Tribune feature on his political rise and how he was supported by shady local heavyweights who he subsequently discarded when they were no longer of any use to him. This kind of behavior is unfortunately a recurring theme with Obama, by the way, and certainly does not reflect well on his character.


Look this up. He didn't drive this by himself, he received key political support from key IL players, who again, are not saints by any stretch of the imagination.

Sorry, but you're overstating Obama's experience. If it had not been for the farcical performance (Ryan, Keyes) of the Republican party in Illinois, Obama may have not even gotten into the US Senate in the first place.


It's merely an expansion of an old bill, not something which he drafted himself.


OK.


Nice one, nice website. Hardly revolutionary legislation and hardly convincing of a "yes we can" reformer.


I wouldn't go there, if I were you, and neither should he. Obama has been highly hypocritical with regards to campaign financing.


In the barely two years he served as senator before announcing that he was running for president? He's worked on a couple of interesting bits and pieces, though some would say that he's done a lot of piggybacking. His vote on the scandalous 2005 energy bill which both Clinton and McCain opposed should raise a few eyebrows. Overall there certainly is more fluff than substance that even an average candidate like McCain can attack him on.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but McCain was never charged for that. What does that make Rezko then?

He is a weak general election candidate who was basically carried across the finish line by DNC elders and the mass media (imagine how different things would have been if the latter had been behind Clinton...). He has proved for months that he is unable to make any inroads into other voting blocs, even within his own party, even as Democrats were being force fed the idea that he is the greatest human being in world history. So far, he can only count on the unconditional support of African Americans (who can't win any southern states by themselves, where most of them come from) and latte drinkers. Obama is in deep shit if he can't at least pull in the Clinton Dems which he has shamefully shunned, not to mention centrists who will most probably vote for McCain en masse.

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Once again, JW is ahead of the curve and spot on.

ooo JW, Conky just gave you a pat and said you were "spot on"

you see in Conky's world of political theory there is only one right way to see things. His way. And anyone he agrees with must be endorsed with a 'spot on' comment to show he'd thought of it all first.

Jealous, BTC? You too will get such recognition if it turns out that saying sweet nothings in the ears of Kim Jong Il, Hugo Chavez, Omar el-Bashir, Bashir al-Assad, Robert Mugabe, Lukashenko, Putin, Khamenei and Ahmedinijad, etc. turns out to be enough to turn them from "The Dark Side". However, since the chances of that are infintesmally low, don't hold your breath waiting for similar praise.

One other thing, BTC, I haven't noticed much, if any, recognition on your part of the validity of positions with which you disagree.

Have to agree with Conq...Good post there JW. The Democratic Congress is trying hurriedly to pass NObama's "Global Poverty Act" so that he can have some kind of legislation to his name. Basically, NObama wants to give .7% of US GDP to the UN to fight Global Poverty. According to the legislation, that amounts to about $65 Billion. Of course, the overtaxed US taxpayers will be hit with a "carbon-tax" (read gasoline tax) of another .35 cents/gallon to pay for it. The kicker is that the UN agency designated to receive the funds was found to be corrupt and mismanaged after a recent audit. And NObama wants to give them $65B! It would just wind up going to the thugs and tin pan dictators.

Look, NObama has NO miltary experience, yet he wants to be Commie-in-Chief, with troops in the field. Then he votes against funding those troops. NObama has No economic experience, except what he learned by hanging out with "Marxist professors" at Columbia, according to his book. NObama Never ran a company or had to make a payroll. And NObama wants to run the US economy? Nobama has No international relations experience, unless you count Hawaii as overseas. NObama wants to make deals with terrorists and terror-sponsoring nations like Syria and Iran. etc...etc...etc...-But hey, he talks a good game. No wonder less than 1/2 of all Democrats voted for him!

BtC you forgot to mention the sly (or sometimes not so sly) attempts to link people with opposing views to various mass-murderers and dictators. Luckily, Conkers stepped into the breach himself.

Who else is jealous?

Wheel, if you sing the praises of Hamas you have linked yourself to them without the intervention of anyone else. You really should work on reading for comprehension, BTW. Also, if someone bizzarely insists all you have to do to get dictators to behave is to parley with them, they can expect such a naive position to receive criticism. If you want to see criticism of such a position as linking the supporters of such dialogue to those dictators with whom they wish to see discussions ensue, that's your own problem of cognitive dissonance to solve.

Put up or shut up Conkers: prove that I have ever sung Hamas' praises.

I think the fact that you'll find it impossible proves who has a problem with reading comprehension.

BtC doesn't have to prove that he considers other viewpoints valid: as he doesn't habitually try to insult or discredit people who disagree with him: it's a given. Unlike yourself.

BadBob, putting aside the where monies from a carbon tax may end up; whether its into local, state, or federal coffers within the US or that some is will be spent internationally. Do you not think that at some point the level of taxation in the US on gasoline and aviation fuel will at some point have to rise?

Conq, you would get a lot more respect if you did not constantly twist and misrepresent the views of those that disagree with you. How would you like it if I called you a protofascistic Gladio-supporter with a passion for the politics of Franco, Salazar and Pinochet? It may not be true and it may be tiresome but it would only be returning the favour.

MT, why do you think raising taxes is a must? Unless you're for bigger government (ie. Democrat).

actually I have to put my hands up and point out that I have been insulting and discrediting djgrazy all day today. But does that really count?

No.

Has McCain run any companies BadBob? I know he said recently economics wasn't his strong point.

Sure, China's oil consumption is increasing, it's a factor in their international activities ie Africa.

But the USA's oil consumption and thus CO² outputs are still massive per head of population.
I'd suggest that has enviromental implications, implications for the Middle East and implications for America's independence.

"Kyoto", "United Nations", whatever. I'd suggest that America's oil consumption needs to come down.
The most obvious way to force that seems to me at first glance to raise the tax on gasoline and avaiation fuel and ring fence the monies into funding alternative transport methods that are more efficient fuel wise per passenger/mile of ton/mile. That might be new inter city railways (think Acela) , it might be new urban light rail (loads of schemes openend in the USA in the last few years, excellent), it might be new inland waterways, it might be new park and ride schemes, it might be investment into new technologies etc etc.

Middle America might well feel gouged by the taxman. I suspect it is the same as here where a lot of moderate to media tax payers carry a lot of the tax burden.
But I don't see any way around a rising cost of fuel. "Cheap" oil might well be over.

The use of the conditional on my part was to encompass a variety of views. What I cannot find is even the slightest condemnation of Hamas on your part. As for praising Hamas, I think most sane people would agree that saying the following about a terrorist group is praising it:


As for BTC's insults, he has done so to me a number of times. Might want to get your eyes checked as well.


Your views haven't been misrepresented, but, once again, I can find a number of examples where you have done just that to me. You have praised Obama for wanting to talk to some really odious dictators and thugs, or are you now backing away from that praise? Do youu advocate dialogue with the world's dictators, or not? If you don't, I give you the opportunity to make it clear that you don't. Do you advocate dialogue with terrorist groups?

No, BTC, your lack of respect is a function of your disagreement with my opinions, and/or your dislike of me disagreeing with you.

Fail. No praise there at all, as your post acknowledges.

I said 'doesn't habitually try to insult'. Not 'never insults, ever'.

Anyway, back on topic.

I guess they don't each reading in school where you come from. Don't worry- you won't get skewered by your ideological allies for misrepresentation. One other thing- your constant skewering of Israel is indirect praise for Hamas.

As for habitual insults, that's a value judgement- and if you feel you are right, prove it.

Conkie plays the victim card more than Hillary.

Eurovol may insult me more than anyone else. It's clearly a leftist malady.

Give it up Conkers. You haven't shown praise. Not even close.

In your dreams...
Of course, you can always take the opportunity to criticize Hamas (for the first time).

That's your binary thinking that let's you down Conq.

Critic of Israel doesn't mean support for Hamas.
Dislike of McCain doesn't mean a carte blance for Obama (no pun intended).
Dislike of Regan doesn't mean undying love of Brehnev.

etc etc.

MT, I disagree. Wheel is a consistent and vehement critic of Israel vis-a-vis Hamas and has, AFAIK, never criticized Hamas despite heavily criticizing Israeli policy towards Hamas. Yet he defends Hamas policy towards Israel just as vehemently. No non-supporter would be that one-sided. Do a search of Wheel's comments on Israel and Hamas (and keep an open mind while doing so).

I think I might have called you 'Conky' and maybe even argued robustly but I cannot remember consciously having called you names in the way I did to djgrazy today.


You repeatedly accuse me of being extreme left, anti-American, antiSemitic, an appeaser etc etc I am none of these things but it seems to cmfort you and make your argumentative position a bit easier to pretend that this is what I believe. i note you do it to Wheel too: factually speaking there was nothing remotely wrong with what you quoted above that he said about Hamas and Hezbollah and neither satement seemed to me to imply that he supported or approved of their terrorist wings.


go on then, find them. I'm waiting


Of course I advocate dialogue rather than military options. I'm a Quaker for heavensake. But I will also note that such dialogue particularly in the Middle East is widely supported in Europe not least by our governments. Ridiculing that position effectively ridicules most Europeans. Keep that up Conqy and you really will have outstayed your welcome.


Your constant hectoring, patronising tone and attempts to present yourself as the wise all-knowing one by misrepresenting the views of your interlocutors makes you easily the most irritating person to debate with on these boards. If there is any lack of respect from us, you only have yourself to blame.

From the same post! Excellent work, saved me having to search.

Your tactic reminds me of a poster I know off another board Conq.
If someone disagrees with you, they are wrong and if they are agree with you, you are right.
This is repeated ad infitum, ad nauseum (that's your actual latin) until they can't be arsed any longer and you claim to have "won" the argument.

When you deamnd that people say something ie criticise Hamas, don't you feel you are violating their right to free speach. ie the right NOT to say something?

as opposed to ad nauseam which would be, what, Chinese?

It's the low end OEM version Mr OG.

ooo, conqy must be writing a novel, he's been at it so long!

I am not familiar with what you said to djgrazy today, but it must have been rather harsh. Just because what you have said to me is unlikely to be as harsh doesn't mean it wasn't a personal attack or other sorts of thing which you are attributing to me.


A person's position on the ideological spectrum is often a matter of opinon, especially when both sides of a discussion come from different countries. I don't recall calling you a extreme left, appeaser or anti-Semitic. Feel free to show any examples of this, if they exist, within context. As to whether you are anti-American or not, the balance of your commentary about the US is quite negative, thus in my opinion, based on your comments about the US and Americans, yes, you are anti-American.


Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups, BTC. Wheel specifically said they weren't. And that is just one example. I suggest you look at the totality of Wheel's comments on Hamas and Israel before drawing a conclusion, and yes, there will be differing opinions. Hence my use of the word "if" above to accomodate differing opinions, a nuance my opponents try to ignore.


You can find them as well.


I was not aware that you are a Quaker, and knowing that, I can understand why you would stress dialogue, although to paraphrase MT, your view is a binary one if you assume that only open dialogue or military action are the only options. Given Ahmedinijad's Holocaust denial, desire to see Israel "wiped off the map" and his comments about the US, no I don't think open dialogue with him is appropriate. Nor do I think that you should presume to speak for all or most Europeans. What I primarily criticize is the utility of public parleys with dictators. If there were a likely prospect of solving the problems they cause by open dialogue, no one would be a stronger advocate than me. However, how often has dialogue alone worked? Your oft-cited case of Northern Ireland was also predicated on a cash squeeze for IRA fundraising activities among Irish in the US and Irish-Americans, not just dialogue.




This is an accusation that can be leveled against any of these interlocutors to whom you refer (all of them on the left). You are far from being immune (to put it politely) from committing what you accuse me of.

Interesting, BTC, that you initiated this latest round of leftist personal attacks on me by bitterly criticizing my praise of a third party, one which contained no criticism of anyone. It simply shows that you have a deep personal animus, and that is your problem.

The point Wheel was making also applies to other organisations that one regards (pun time again) "beyond the Pale" also have wings that provide social services to an opressed population. Education, communal food supplies, physical protection, social amenities etc that are not provided by the civil society or cannot be provided. Their terrorist wings may try and recruit or gain resources through those activities but it doesn't mean per se that those activities are illegtimate.

As much as I detest their politics and their motives for doing so, closer to home, the NPD has stepped in to provide youth clubs in the eastern states.
But before the CDU or SPD get all hypocritically sniffy about it, it s THEM cutting public spending on such stuff and creating a vacuum.

Glad to have your permission. I feel so privileged.

But we are in Germany now, and calling someone a 'leftist' or 'extreme eft' has a very definite context and connotation here.


well I don't think I am remotely anti-American although I am very against your erstwhile vision of America.


Actually, no he didn't and this is just exactly what you seem to do all the time. Wheel said that it was strictly speaking not triue to reduce either organisation to just being terrorist groupings when they actually have more sizeable political wings that actually fulfill infrastructure roles in Palestinian society. Saying that doesn't mean he is denying that terrorist acts come from either group when they patently do. And as Hamas is the democratically elected government of Palestine it would be the height of stupidity just to write them off as terrorists alone. Even Israel does not go that far.


I agree with Wheel more often than not but I would caution against drawing conclusions about what he thinks of Isreal when all you have seen is his arguments against a bunch of American neo-imperialists with kneejerks primed for any mention or slight against Israel.


They aren't the only options but they are the two most likely AND the only two options on offer from the two presidential candidates - I am quite clear which one I'd choose if I had a vote in the election.


Ahmedinejad is a populist first and foremost. His public bombastic outrageous statements are calculated to provoke both a reaction from the west and a big cheer from the upper gallery. I think most Iranians will be glad to see the back of him and I really don't expect he will be around that much longer. But there are much more reasonable figures in the Iranian government including bizarrely the Surpreme leader. I note the Iraqi President rates him highly and met with him today. What would be wrong with properly formatted talks with Iran and Syria over US troop withdrawals from Iraq. Dear God, if dialogue with Syria and Iran


I wasn't "bitterly critizing" anyone. I was trying to be amusing actually. But why doesn't it surprise me that you missed that?

Thanks both for pointing out the context of that statement.

@Wheel
Context? You play devil's advocate and try to find moral equivalence between Israel and every "freedom fighting" organization in the Middle East.

I would say calling someone or something being "far right" has a much stronger connotation in Germany. At any rate, I can't recall anyone saying you were far left. Non sequitir.




Interesting. I shouldn't dare to draw conclusions from hundreds of Wheel's posts on Israel, but you feel free to draw a conclusive opinion on my "vision of America". You have been caught misrepresenting my views before, a current thread holding a salient example:
Ban the niqab (or nijab, the Muslim veil)

As for Wheel and Israel, here's seven pages worth for you to pore through, BTC, but don't dare draw an opinion from such a voluminous "paper trail."
http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index...hlite=%2BIsrael

BTW, I didn't know that Genie nor any other TTer is "an American neo-imperialist", and isn't such a pejorative the sort of thing you were whining about above? Note also that the hijab thread contains a similar use of misrepresentation and insult from our "saintly" BTC, who can't wait to denounce me for such things!


So now you are privy to the inner thoughts of Wheel? What's particularly interesting is your own riposte to Wheel on the very same thread from which I quoted him:
Rote Armee Fraktion (RAF) terrorists up for parole

Once again, Wheel has failed to acknowledge anything negative about Hamas, merely criticizing Hamas opponents. If his view of Hamas is a bit less one-sided than his posts indicate, surely he would be willing to criticize the terror group? Sincere criticism of Hamas by Wheel would earn some respect from me.


Do you now want to vote in a third country?


So, do I understand correctly that you do not advocate dialogue with Dini?

Sounds to me like discussions about troop withdrawals need to be held with the Iraqis first and foremost. The Iraqi leader needs to be on at least decent terms with a powerful neighbor which might have nuclear weapons soon.


So that's the excuse for your tirades? No, your comments and hypocritical complaints make it rather clear that you have a personal animus against me.

As for my original post this evening in praise of JW, here is an example of him being "ahead of the curve" (including being ahead of me):

Obama is in Europeam terms a centre-left candidate though certainly not from "the left" whereas McCain is clearly a conservative with an apparently more agressive foreign policy agenda. No wonder the former is widely popular in Europe and is regarded by many in US terms of reference as a "liberal".

The term "liberal" in the US appears to be a catch all "boo word" from the conservative camp without an examination of the ideology and policies behind it.

Obama is a candidate who fits perfectly in the mold of a mainstream European post-communist socialist party. The SPD in Germany or PS in France would be delighted to have a politician like him on their books.


McCain is definitely not your prototypical conservative candidate, though he is certainly more hawkish than Obama. Then again, one wonders what Obama's positions really are? One minute he wants to sit down and have a cup of tea with every US foreign policy nemesis in the world, the next he's talking about the danger that Iran poses...


Just as being a "conservative", or "liberal" (economically) actually, are taboo in European politics.

MT, even taking into account that you are a self-admitted Marxist, your contention that Obama is "not from the left" is beyond ludicrous. The poll results are telling you something, plus he is a US politician, thus European perception of where he lies on the European political spectrum is really of no relevance. Being a liberal in Europe is something quite different than what it is in the US.

Being Liberal in the US is something quite different than what people like Conky and the Right want you to think. Its a case of we will take that social justice and benefit (but we are not dreaded Liberals), but I will be damned if I will pay for someone else to have it too. That is just how self righteously stupid these people are.

If your candidate isn't a better human being than everyone else, you are. It does make a change from the usual fare...

Isn't being a Liberal or Progressive come down to two things: abortion and the death penalty? We believe that abortion and the death penalty should remain 'legal' and the 'Right' doesn't.

I feel the need to explain better my position on Iran. Back in 2001, the president of Iran was Mohammed Khatami. He was a reformist who advocated raprochement with the west. The supreme council had been tentatively moving towards liberalising the revolutionary state for about 10 years and the election of Khatami was part of that process. Under Khatami, Europe started to rebuild relations with Iran and even Clinton showed some indication in his dying days that business could be done with Iran. But then in came Bush and tore up that policy.

When the US invaded its neighbour Afghanistan, Iran actually gave assistance. But what thanks did they get? When Bush gave his "Axis of Evil" speech it caused MASSIVE ructions in Iran. Iranian newspapers called for Khatami to step down as his policy of raprochement with the west had failed. And then the US invaded their other major neighbour Iraq, effectively hemming them in. In a last ditch attempt to bolster his reformist government with raprochement to the West, Iran offered help to the occupying Americans and proposed bilateral negotiations covering all substantive issues including the nuclear issue and the two state solution in Israel. However, this was totally rebuffed publicly by the US in insulting terms and senior republicans even started talking about Iran being "next". Khatami was totally finished. In the 2004 election for the Majlis the Supreme Council believing the experiment in liberalism had failed, banned liberal candidates from standing and so disparaged Khatami in the press that a little named populist Ahmedinejad, got in for the presidency.

Ahmedinejad has been a disastrous Iranian leader. Not because of his frankly ridiculous anti-Israeli posturing. His pointless brinkmanship over the nuclear question has alienated even erstwhile allies and his handling of the Iranian economy has been an utter disaster. And so the muttering in the Iranian press has started and again the supreme council have made clear their displeasure. His term ends next year, a few months after the new US president is inaugurated and most analysts expect a reformist to be elected in his place.

The timing would suit perfectly a US presidency seeking talks with a new Iranian presidency.