U.S. Presidential Election 2008

By people who have an agenda to demonize commie-socialist-liberals and not a brain perhaps. Makes me wonder what some of these people think about Abe's "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" address? Funny that the Republican party was "founded" by a guy promoting Marxist ideals.

This just goes to show that party "ideals" are up for sale to the highest bidder, whomever can deliver the most money and/or votes. This goes for both parties.

You can read those words without interpreting it as Marxist. The US government has a job to do for the citizens of the US. Establish justice, insure domestic rranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, etc. This can be done without resorting to total control of the economy or radical redistribution of wealth. Level the playing field and provide a safety net.

As for historical references, remember the old Democratic party? Jessie Jackson's recent comments about BHO may indicate how united the dems are for the Fall. If McCain picks a Condi or female Veep, it may be all over.

For some strange reason Bush's Alcholism and arrest record didn't seem to prevent him from being President. And to my knowledge, McCain's adultery hasn't been given much mainstream media play, so I would suggest also that not everyone agrees that McCain's millitary service is a qualifying fact to be Commander-In-Chief So far as I am aware Senate Committees require you to actually show up. How many important meetings has McCain attended? A guess:


I betcha didn't know.

Jesse Jackson is a nutter, and nobody takes anything he says seriously anymore.

Really, ??


Well mad respect to the nutters!

From the Wall Street Journal no less: Is John McCain Stupid?

The eighties were a long time ago, KK. He was very influential back then, true, but since then has lost much of his constituency. I used to admire him, but he's adopted quite a few questionable causes to maintain his visibility in recent years. The real black leaders nowadays don't consider that it's "talkin' down to black people" when you tell them to take responsibility for their families and communities.

Bit of a stretch there eurovol. Nothing socialist about Abe.

Also in the black community it should never be a question about 'him' OR 'him', OR 'her'. If Jesse had not bounded into political status in the DNC in the 80's, would we be looking forward to the Presidency of Obama in 2008? Maybe, but maybe not. With the taking responsibility thing, why this is such an important mantra toward the black community and not Americans in general is strange. Afterall, I'm sure a statistic can be pulled up from somewhere that American families are struggling to keep family values and moral compasses ingrained in their children despite negative influences. Ethnicity has nothing to with that whatsoever.

Especially considering your dubious source for the claim of McCain infidelity, perhaps there is a reason why the MSM hasn't jumped all over it- it is probably is not accurate and not every piece of rubbish someone alleges deserves our attention. Some wackjob put something on YouTube earlier this year claiming he had homosexual relations with Obama. The MSM had the good taste in that case as well not to trumpet such absolute rubbish. Furthermore, although Obama has admitted to previous drug use, we also aren't holding that against him.

Funny thing about Wesley Clark (also a former career military man)- what exactly was his great claim to be qualified for the Presidency other than his own military service?

As for the issue of McCain and attendance, it seems to be a general problem for US Senators, including Barry O himself:



You might want to ask Obama why he made those remarks himself (and then directed them at the African-American community):

I also read a list somewhere of 61 or so flip flops from McCain. It's clear to me that he's doing it to try to gain a political upperhand, but it's unfortunate because it makes him appear to be completely foolish and incompetent. McCain has every intention of raising payroll taxes, keeping everything 'off' the table, like not being specific, tends to make people doubt you have honest intentions.

From your article that makes my point.


Feel free to read this jem. Why does McCain receive Social Security?

"The 'pussification' of Germany is at last complete..."

yea, BadBob is back. I was wondering whe you'd show up. Welcome home.

So McCain collects what is legally due him. Hardly controversial. It's also false to claim McCain "doesn't like Social Security" or that someone knows that he "has every intention of raising payroll taxes". Just another rubbish hatchet job- saying anything to help out Barry O.

I like the idea of means-testing Social Security benefits; however, let's not pretend it would not be administratively complex, and possibly to the point it would be impractable.

Last I looked, the exact details of Obama's plans for Social Security were scant to nonexistent, although he has committed to an increase in Social Security taxes So McCain is showing some flexibility- big deal, means he is no ideologue (a flexible stance also makes it easier for him to compromise with a Democratic-controlled Congress, which he would have to do anyway). At any rate, the future of Social Security is not going to be decided by the next President alone, and the best chance for bipartisanship on this crucial issue is a split government.

Uh, yeah they still do. Look at how they have treated Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby helped to make it more acceptable, but there are many that still want to blame the "white man".


Just like a political neophyte. I talk Marxism and you immediately make it Socialism. That is what is wrong with America and why so many people are misinformed and just plain stupid. I am sorry, but if you can't keep the genres separate, then you might as well turn punk into hip hop!!!


Wes was never qualified and you are throwing in dummy grenades to prove your pointless argument. Lyndon LaRouche ran for President too by the way. Want to comment on that?

Yet again eurovol reads too much into a comment and then doesn't defend what he writes.

You are turning into Conky number 2. I will defend what I write and to state otherwise is libelous.

From wiki on socialism:
"In a Marxist or labor-movement definition of the term, socialism is a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism..."

Again from wiki on pinko stinko communism:
"Communism is a socioeconomic structure that promotes the establishment of a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of the means of production and property in general.[1][2][3] It is usually considered to be a branch of socialism..."

Please educate me on the nuances between Marxism, socialism, communism, etc. From what I was taught, they are different extents of government controlled industry with redistribution of wealth according to need not ability. Sounds peachy!

It worked great for the Soviets, and China is having a great go (cept for those Fulong Gong guys). Cuba is another world superpower, thanks to the magic of communism (Marxism? Socialism?).

Maybe if I spend more time in Europe the differences will become more apparent?

And Bad Bob, thanks for posting that Red State Update video on BHO in Berlin. I did not know how to link it like you did, so I doubt anyone watched it.

Recently, as you may know, Jessie Jackson spoke some disparaging words about Obama that Obama's campaign found very offensive and undermining. Obama spoke recently about black men stepping up and taking care of their families. Here's an open letter written to Jessie Jackson by an activist who's calling on Jessie Jackson to step up and practice what he preaches and spend some quality time with his ten year old daughter who was born out of wedlock:

http://urbanthoughtcollective.com/2008/07/...n-barack-obama/

Of course it was offensive, people are working hard to get Obama elected to the Presidency. The last thing the Nation needs to see is two strong leaders in the black community at odds. If what you're implying is that it should make a difference .. it doesn't. Mainly because people don't care. It's the same reason why the (mainstream) media hasn't focused in on McCain's adulterous behavior and the personal ethics of a man that would leave his sick wife for a millionaire mistress. People don't seem to care, because if they did, believe me, Jackson's daughter issues would be the least of our worries.

Have a Looksie

Gatzke, thank you for setting the record (and eurovol) straight.

Oh God, I have been Wikiafied!

Instead of posting some Wiki link, how about posting what you actually believe? You can speak for yourself can't you?

eurovol, of all the rubbish you have posted on TT, your quote of this clown's website (posted in 2004!) is, AFAIK, the worst piece of rubbish.


For those who don't know, eurovol was a supporter of the purveyor of "The Dean Scream" in the last presidential election cycle. Anyhow, it was your ally and ideological soulmate KK's citation of Clark's comment. LaRouche is a nut- is that good enough for you?


Happens in nine out of every ten of his posts.


Defend with attitude, insults, irrelevant tantrums, but not with logic.


First of all, McCain was separated from his first wife when he met the woman who became his second. Second, his wife had had her health problems beginning during his time as a POW in Vietnam, about a decade earlier, and as part of their divorce, McCain agreed to pay for her health insurance or future treatment she would need. Finally, they are on good terms, which speaks volumes to me- how many divorced spouses who were treated badly by their ex-spouse are on good terms with the former spouse after a divorce? Hardly any, if any at all.

Bill Cosby was ahead of his time; he's been saying the same thing Obama said for yonks. If there is a President Obama, it will be interesting to see what the "blacks are victims" apologists do with the fact that a black American man is now in the most powerful job in the world.

Just bear in mind ... Obama is the exception, not the rule. And if you want to tell me minorities have not been victimized in America .. I would suggest you read about the Jim Crow Laws and Brown v. Bd. of Education. Not to mention that whole history of how America was 'discovered' ... and how the economy 'thrived'. We learned this stuff in elementary school.

cinzia, to those who have a lot invested in that it will make no difference to them, except that they will expect Obama to push their agenda.

KK, no one is suggesting that, so don't bother misrepresenting anyone's remarks to that effect. I think we should also focus on the outstanding achievements of Maggie Walker, George Washington Carver, Charles Drew, Ralph Bunche, and others, as well as contemporary figures such as Oprah and Bob Johnson.

Also, KK, don't trot out the false innuendo that the US was built on slavery- even in 1861 the vast majority of the country's GDP wasn't created by the production of slaves.

One thing that I'm hoping for if Obama is elected is that minorities in American will rise up and be empowered to take more responsibility and accountabilities in their communities, in their economic development, in their educational advancement, in the cohesiveness of their families, and the curtailment of crime.

Can we have a big Amen to that one!! If Obama does win, I would hope that he would serve as an inspiration to others, but I won't hold my breath.

Fact: The place most of us reside in routinely employed slave labor in the mid 20th century, so that particular anti-american argument is the dampest of all possible squibs.

There are already plenty of role models in minority communities- and most of them are ordinary folks.

I once met Betty Shabazz (Malcolm X's widow) when I was growing up and thought she was a fantastic role model, just to name one person (and one who raised six daughters after her husband's untimely death).

Good point Conq, agreed

I hate to cite stuff from the wiki, but it may be ok for quickly backing up "facts" for online arguments. Especially since they have their own community that has already argued over the content.

I did, and you said I did not know anything.

• I think socialism is a lighter version of communism.
• I think the US has some socialist programs, but not so much as those in the EU.
• I think communism is generally a bad idea.
• I think you backing up your argument that Republicans are communists with a single outdated web page from a tribble loving nutjob is a bit weak.

How about you back up some of your points rather than just throw idiotic unsubstantiated bombs?

Back on topic, did anyone see that the Pubs stayed in session after Pelosi ended the session for a 5 week vacation! Keep this up next week and maybe it will influence the Fall election?

Just a reminder eurovol- personal attacks are verboten on TT. Also, I think the Republicans would have rather faced Dean in 2004 than John Kerry.

What you apparently need to be reminded, eurovol, is that no one needs you for anything. In fact, pretty much no TTer needs another for anything.

As for "promoting the Dean Scream" I don't think any serious person would consider CNN and ABC News to be Republican organizations.

Time for a group hug. Lets all kiss and make up.

Absolutely, there are no shortage of role models in minority communities. However, these role models are not recognized or respected enough for the efforts they expend to try to make a difference in the community. They are often times invisible heroes.

Minority communities have a tendency to idolize minorities in the media who have wealth, musical talent, or athleticism.

I guess Obama the Brilliant is giving in to the masses:


I think we need to look increased use of cleaner coal and, in the long term, more use of nuclear power as well as renewable energy.


Can't say if I blame any voter for being a bit confused (or whiplashed) by Obama at this point.


Hmm, this sounds eerily similar in substance to the proposed gas tax holiday to me:


Once again, Barry O's shifts (or, if you prefer, flip-flops) leave eurovol writhing in pain...

Is there a shortage? No. Are they recongnized enough? Mainstream media hardly represents all minorities equally and not without some prejudice. Do all minority communities idolize wealth, musical, or athleticism? No. For one thing, media mogels exploit young talent, athletic scouts encourage millionaire promises before kids even finish high school and it's the capitalistic attitude of American culture that influences the impressions of youth to gain wealth quickly. It's got nothing to do with miniorities specificially, it is a problem of the Americas and one that needs a systematic overall to change. But changing the American culture means altering how Americans see themselves. That's a monumental task but one McCain has neither the motivation nor the inclination to tackle.

You appear to be stuck in this minority rut. I suppose there's no such thing as white-collar crimes, that there are no white drug dealers in suburbia or white gangs, or even that there are no whites on government assistance or single white families. One of the problems of America is insisting that these issues are isolated to the minoritiy communities. If you're American, there's no excuse for the ignorance. If you're of some other country, I would say it reads like you're just perpetuating the sterotypes people have of minorities in America. Also no excuse because there are plenty of resources availabe to educate if you're so inclined.

should ludacris' rhymes(politics:obama is here)be credited?and to what extent is it going to affect the campain?

hmm. Not sure I agree with that. Marxist sociaalism superficially shares some of the ideology with the Communism espoused in Russia, China and elsewhere. However these were totalitarian states where the communist ideologies of Lennin, Mao, Hoxha and others held greater sway. And democratic socialism is the very antithesis of totalitarian communist systems. The former communist parties of Eastern Europe had to completely transform their ideological base and modus operandi to become democratic parties - some did become socialist like the PDS in Germany but some became hypernationalist like in Serbia andd others embraced centre right neoliberalism such as those in Romania, Hungary etc


not sure about that. The Democratic party does adopt some social democratic policies on occasion and I understand there are left leaning politicians in Cincinatti that would not look out of place in Europe. But generally the US political milieu is so shifted to the right when compared with Europe that there is little a European could identify as properly socialist. That wasn't always the case though - in the early 20th century there was indeed a socialist movement in the USA of comparable size to that in the UK at the same time. But while socilaism flourished in the UK it failed in the USA in part because of covert and not so covert state suppression of the activities of soialists in America most notably under Hoover and MaCarthy.


why? It is a utopian ideal and in a perfect world without an ideological battle between nations who is to say that it could not have worked well?


hmm, have to agree that implying that the Republicans are capitalist communists is quite staggeringly politically ignorant (sorry eurovol)

seems that even the rightwing Tory Mayor of London has now endorsed Obama too

Credited, why? Ludacris's lyrics are obviously Ludacris speaking to hear himself talk. It's great when people are encouraged to speak about the election and vote, but the guy went a little too hard and people can get caught up in the words being too literal. As far as I know, Obama already put his stamp of approval on the Will.i.am song. Besides, why can't Ludacris be more like Will Smith, the world would be better off without all the negative and derogatory lyrics permeating the music industry despite this thing called artistic freedom.

Barack Obama couldn't even be bothered to try to change the views of Jeremiah Wright and Barack's fellow parishioners at Trinity (in spite of his stated disagreement with them) yet we are to believe he can change how 300 million people view themselves and "change American culture"? At any rate, that's not what we need a president for- there are plenty of other voices to accomplish such a thing, if indeed there is a need to do so (given that your statement is vague, we don't know exactly what you think needs to be changed about American culture, thus we cannot say if it is even necessary).

Depends .. what's the ration of men to women here?

That doesn't bother many people round here KK.

I am not sure that an occasional attendee in a huge church has quite the same power and potential to change minds as the "leader of the free world" . . . .

Amen to that.

Obama was a longtime member and a respected and well-known attendee of the church, and Trinity churchgoers are a far more homogenous group than the overall US population. Obama certainly had access to Wright, but did nothing. It's also a monumentally more difficult task to change the minds of 300 million people (also, no one here on TT has said specifically what aspects of American culture should be changed). To place such a burden on any person is unfair and unrealistic.

BTC, one day you will realize that the US President's power is far from unlimited.

As for Boris Johnson's endorsement of Obama, note that it was simply because Obama is black. Not a good reason- after all there are many African-Americans who are more accomplished than him, and frankly, not voting for someone or voting for someone on the basis of race is simply wrong- and a US presidential election is far too important a position to be decided on the basis of race.

Conquistador, do you go to a church? Do you disagree with what is preached ever? And if you do, what do you do to denounce the preacher and seek to change the views of fellow congregants?

In my former days in the Anglican church I OFTEN disagreed with what was preached and sometimes pretty fundamentally, which was ultimately why I left the church. Most of my fellow congregants were unaware of my difficuties though I did tell the priest in the end. This was a small anglo-catholic church but een I realised that my personal faith could nt be imposed upon the church.

and as for Boris Johnston - he may be a buffoon but he is no fool. His statement that an Obama victory cold set a role model young black men in London addresses a present and fundamental problem in the City but his endorsement of Obama and dismissal of McCain are likely to have more to do with the fact that the overwhelming majority of people in London - left and right - want to see an Obama presidency and completely reject McCain. Boris knows what side his bread is buttered on.