my spouse has been out sick from work for 8 weeks. he probably can't return for another 4 weeks. at the moment, he is hospitalized. he works for a small company with about 8 employees. maybe 10. about 1 year ago, the secretary disappeared for 3 months and was fired. but i can't recall whether or not she ever sent in a doctor's note. another employee who works in IT disappears from time-to-time for 1 month or so, then suddenly turns up and there's no problem. but he's IT and companies really need these people.
but i'm really looking at this from a legal perspective. german people tell me that it's not possible to fire someone out _ever_. a friend who is a lawyer, but not a labor lawyer (meaning this is not his expertise) looked the information up for me and said that after 6 weeks, it's not really clear in german law and that it probably depends on the size of the company. but that most rulings, if a redundancy is challenged, tend to favour the employee.
You are viewing a low-graphics version of this page. Click the headline to view full version:
Duration of sick leave in Germany
German labor law and compensation regulations
His employer pays 80% of his salary for the first six weeks and receives compensation from his health insurance company. At the end of these six weeks the health insurance company itself pays Krankengeld (german link) of either 70% of his gross salary or 90% of his take-home pay. Contributions to mandatory insurance (pension, unemployment, health insurance) are also covered.
Get in touch with his health insurance.
And you cannot be sacked just for being sick.
Get in touch with his health insurance.
And you cannot be sacked just for being sick.
Did you inform the employer about it and send them the medical leave document the doctor gave you (krankenmeldung)? And you have to send a copy of it to the health insurance as well.
If you do the paperwork properly, there is no reason he is going to be fired.
After 6 weeks your husband will receive less nett income as it was already mentioned, depending on the type of insurance (private vs public), your husband will get about 67% of his normal salary.
If you do the paperwork properly, there is no reason he is going to be fired.
After 6 weeks your husband will receive less nett income as it was already mentioned, depending on the type of insurance (private vs public), your husband will get about 67% of his normal salary.
QUOTE (sarabyrd @ Jun 2 2008, 10:14 am) 
And you cannot be sacked just for being sick.
Yes, you can! Just google "krankheitsbedingte Kündigung"
QUOTE
Folgende Voraussetzungen müssen immer erfüllt sein, damit eine krankheitsbedingte Kündigung zulässig ist:
Eine negative Gesundheitsprognose,
Nicht mehr hinnehmbare betriebliche oder wirtschaftliche Belastungen für den Arbeitgeber und
Eine Interessenabwägung mit dem Ergebnis, dass das Beendigungsinteresse des Arbeitgebers hinsichtlich des Arbeitsverhältnisses das Fortsetzungsinteressen des Arbeitnehmers überwiegt.
Eine negative Gesundheitsprognose,
Nicht mehr hinnehmbare betriebliche oder wirtschaftliche Belastungen für den Arbeitgeber und
Eine Interessenabwägung mit dem Ergebnis, dass das Beendigungsinteresse des Arbeitgebers hinsichtlich des Arbeitsverhältnisses das Fortsetzungsinteressen des Arbeitnehmers überwiegt.
Really, they can only sack you, not for being sick, but if the prognosis is very negative i.e. if the person will not get any better and can thus never again practice in his/her job. The likelyhood of losing your job here because of one incident such as the one outlined by the OP is highly unlikely (for one, the requirements outlined above, based on the information given by the OP, would not be fulfilled) and should it happen I would very much advise them to contact a lawyer.
if he is in the hospital (past the 6 week point), do i need to send my spouse's employer a letter from the hospital every week? i know from my time in the hospital that they give you a letter for your employer when you go in and another letter the day you leave.
if your husband is on standard public insurance the sick notes issued by the doctor are yellow.
And the dates of the validity of the sick note are clearly on it.
Before a sick note expires, if you are still sick, you must get a doctor to issue a new one.
They come in two sections: One section for the employer which doesn't mention the cause of sickness, one section for the Kasse which does.
Send in the employers section by post, might like to keep a copy just in case.
And the dates of the validity of the sick note are clearly on it.
Before a sick note expires, if you are still sick, you must get a doctor to issue a new one.
They come in two sections: One section for the employer which doesn't mention the cause of sickness, one section for the Kasse which does.
Send in the employers section by post, might like to keep a copy just in case.
thanks for the info. but this is what we did for 6 weeks. but now he is in the hospital. you don't get these yellow notes from the hospital. they only issue you a letter. i'm wondering if i need to send his employer something between the time when he entered the hospital and when he is released.
Write a letter to his company explaining the situation. Get one of his Dr;s. at the Hospital to write out a letter/fill out a form, or get the Insurance company to do it.
don't worry,
i would suggest however that you sign up for rechtschutz versicherung covering arbeitsrecht and even better sign up for a union membership. ver.di has an excellent legal department and only take 1% of gross income per month. this then covers anything you might require including legal advice.
otherwise, just make sure you have good supportive doctors (who will always back up your husband) and stay in good touch with your krankenkasse. the employer is now financially out of the picture until your husband is able to work again.
keep the krankenkasse happy and ensure your doctors back you up all the way. again join the union or get the rechtschutz then you are covered whatever happens.
dont worry!!! this is not america, uk or australia. workers here still have some job security!!!
viva fidel!!! ;-D
i would suggest however that you sign up for rechtschutz versicherung covering arbeitsrecht and even better sign up for a union membership. ver.di has an excellent legal department and only take 1% of gross income per month. this then covers anything you might require including legal advice.
otherwise, just make sure you have good supportive doctors (who will always back up your husband) and stay in good touch with your krankenkasse. the employer is now financially out of the picture until your husband is able to work again.
keep the krankenkasse happy and ensure your doctors back you up all the way. again join the union or get the rechtschutz then you are covered whatever happens.
dont worry!!! this is not america, uk or australia. workers here still have some job security!!!
viva fidel!!! ;-D
ps
one more thing -
make sure you call in or better still fax your husband's employer every week (mondays for example) to let them know the date of return. Keep a copy of everything. if you call make a note of time, date and with whom you spoke.
the krankenkasse will ask you to do the same thing. the employer has the right to know when to expect your husband will be back - for their own planning purposes.
one of my colleagues - a lovely american lady - fell and broke her wrist terribly and she has been off since early in the year.
by the way, you are under no obligation to reveal what is wrong with your husband and you dont have to tell them a lot of detailed information.
all the best and again, dont worry.
cheers!
one more thing -
make sure you call in or better still fax your husband's employer every week (mondays for example) to let them know the date of return. Keep a copy of everything. if you call make a note of time, date and with whom you spoke.
the krankenkasse will ask you to do the same thing. the employer has the right to know when to expect your husband will be back - for their own planning purposes.
one of my colleagues - a lovely american lady - fell and broke her wrist terribly and she has been off since early in the year.
by the way, you are under no obligation to reveal what is wrong with your husband and you dont have to tell them a lot of detailed information.
all the best and again, dont worry.
cheers!
thank you. i emailed after 2 weeks of his entering the hospital. i called the owner today (small company). he says they have already hired a new person for his job but my husband still has his job (because of the law because you can't fire a sick person). but he also says that he cannot afford to pay 2 designers. and that he will need to talk to my husband to sort something out. --what does that mean? is this even legal?
could your recommend a rechtschutzversicherung? thank you for the psychological support.
could your recommend a rechtschutzversicherung? thank you for the psychological support.
QUOTE (leylah @ Jun 9 2008, 10:38 pm)
thanks for the info. but this is what we did for 6 weeks. but now he is in the hospital. you don't get these yellow notes from the hospital. they only issue you a letter. i'm wondering if i need to send his employer something between the time when he entered the hospital and when he is released.
I had the same thing when I was in hospital for an op and it was fine, the letter from the hospital is totally sufficient.
I would of course keep the company updated as to his progress, but don't worry re the rest. The hospital will give you the letter once he can go home which you can then give to the employer. If he is advised by the hospital to stay home for longer once released, he needs to go to his doctor the next day (can't be any later than that!) to get a sick note (the yellow one) to cover that period.
QUOTE (leylah @ Jun 12 2008, 11:38 am)
could your recommend a rechtschutzversicherung?
I'm afraid it may be too late as far as this case is concerned. The Rechtsschutzversicherung does not cover pre-existing situations and while you may be able to argue that the situation only exists when the company actually officially tries to fire him, in many cases there is a three month waiting period after taking out the insurance before you can claim on it.
you are probably right. i had a premonition earlier this year about getting it. i have made an appointment for tomorrow.
but over the last 5 years i have had to use lawyers at least 3 or 4 times and each time i was able to come to a reasonable agreement. i paid one 150 euros to sort out a problem. and for bill collecting, another agreed that if they could not collect, i would pay 100 euros and if they did, then the other person would have to cover their fee.
if we sue. what is the best case scenario? i mean, aside from keeping his job. could he get a pay out of some sort? i mean, firing a guy on his sick bed. how low is that???
but over the last 5 years i have had to use lawyers at least 3 or 4 times and each time i was able to come to a reasonable agreement. i paid one 150 euros to sort out a problem. and for bill collecting, another agreed that if they could not collect, i would pay 100 euros and if they did, then the other person would have to cover their fee.
if we sue. what is the best case scenario? i mean, aside from keeping his job. could he get a pay out of some sort? i mean, firing a guy on his sick bed. how low is that???
If hubby is sick and they fire him you are looking at a big payout.
The company can hire someone else for the duration but must give your husband back his job once he's recovered. And the company is not paying his salary after the first six weeks (see above) so why the hell are they moaning about paying two designers?
Pah!
Pah!
thanks for the info. i should mention, this is a small company, about 10 people. my spouse is a designer and there was always another guy who did client relations and designed as well. sometime within the past 9 weeks they've hired a new one. after the owner told me he had hired a new designer as a permanent employee and that he can't afford to pay 2 designers, i specifically asked the owner 'are you telling me my husband doesn't have a job?' and he said 'that would be illegal because he's sick.' bit i'm told by a friend who owns a fairly large company that after 3 months, the person can come back, but then the company can give him 1 - 3 months notice (or more, depending on how long he's worked with the company.) a friend who is a tax lawyer and a partner in an international company looked this up and says that after 6 weeks, the law is not clear. but from his understanding if you sue, the employee almost always wins. but has referred me to his friend who i will meet with tomorrow.
i'm so pissed. last summer the company was in a financial hole and they asked everyone to take a pay cut for a few months or to take a few months off until a large contract was signed. my husband complied. i told him not to do it. and now they're totally trying to f**k him. fricking germans. in the 3 years he's worked there, this is only the second time he's been sick. what happens when people have major operations? sometimes the recovery period is 8 weeks (after having spent 10 days in the hospital) and the person has a relapse. i'm an american, we sue for fun. i'm totally pissed off.
i'm so pissed. last summer the company was in a financial hole and they asked everyone to take a pay cut for a few months or to take a few months off until a large contract was signed. my husband complied. i told him not to do it. and now they're totally trying to f**k him. fricking germans. in the 3 years he's worked there, this is only the second time he's been sick. what happens when people have major operations? sometimes the recovery period is 8 weeks (after having spent 10 days in the hospital) and the person has a relapse. i'm an american, we sue for fun. i'm totally pissed off.
It's the company's problem if they gave this other guy a permy job while your husband was still on sick leave and likely to return in the near future. Dig your heels in and consult a lawyer.
QUOTE (leylah @ Jun 12 2008, 9:38 pm)
... the law is not clear ...
Well ... take a closer look at it:
QUOTE
§ 622 Kündigungsfristen bei Arbeitsverhältnissen
(1) Das Arbeitsverhältnis eines Arbeiters oder eines Angestellten (Arbeitnehmers) kann mit einer Frist von vier Wochen zum Fünfzehnten oder zum Ende eines Kalendermonats gekündigt werden.
(2) 1Für eine Kündigung durch den Arbeitgeber beträgt die Kündigungsfrist, wenn das Arbeitsverhältnis in dem Betrieb oder Unternehmen
1.
zwei Jahre bestanden hat, einen Monat zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
2.
fünf Jahre bestanden hat, zwei Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
3.
acht Jahre bestanden hat, drei Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
4.
zehn Jahre bestanden hat, vier Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
5.
zwölf Jahre bestanden hat, fünf Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
6.
15 Jahre bestanden hat, sechs Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
7.
20 Jahre bestanden hat, sieben Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats.
2Bei der Berechnung der Beschäftigungsdauer werden Zeiten, die vor der Vollendung des 25. Lebensjahrs des Arbeitnehmers liegen, nicht berücksichtigt.
(3) Während einer vereinbarten Probezeit, längstens für die Dauer von sechs Monaten, kann das Arbeitsverhältnis mit einer Frist von zwei Wochen gekündigt werden.
(4) 1Von den Absätzen 1 bis 3 abweichende Regelungen können durch Tarifvertrag vereinbart werden. 2Im Geltungsbereich eines solchen Tarifvertrags gelten die abweichenden tarifvertraglichen Bestimmungen zwischen nicht tarifgebundenen Arbeitgebern und Arbeitnehmern, wenn ihre Anwendung zwischen ihnen vereinbart ist.
(5) 1Einzelvertraglich kann eine kürzere als die in Absatz 1 genannte Kündigungsfrist nur vereinbart werden,
1.
wenn ein Arbeitnehmer zur vorübergehenden Aushilfe eingestellt ist; dies gilt nicht, wenn das Arbeitsverhältnis über die Zeit von drei Monaten hinaus fortgesetzt wird;
2.
wenn der Arbeitgeber in der Regel nicht mehr als 20 Arbeitnehmer ausschließlich der zu ihrer Berufsbildung Beschäftigten beschäftigt und die Kündigungsfrist vier Wochen nicht unterschreitet.
2Bei der Feststellung der Zahl der beschäftigten Arbeitnehmer sind teilzeitbeschäftigte Arbeitnehmer mit einer regelmäßigen wöchentlichen Arbeitszeit von nicht mehr als 20 Stunden mit 0,5 und nicht mehr als 30 Stunden mit 0,75 zu berücksichtigen. 3Die einzelvertragliche Vereinbarung längerer als der in den Absätzen 1 bis 3 genannten Kündigungsfristen bleibt hiervon unberührt.
(6) Für die Kündigung des Arbeitsverhältnisses durch den Arbeitnehmer darf keine längere Frist vereinbart werden als für die Kündigung durch den Arbeitgeber.
(1) Das Arbeitsverhältnis eines Arbeiters oder eines Angestellten (Arbeitnehmers) kann mit einer Frist von vier Wochen zum Fünfzehnten oder zum Ende eines Kalendermonats gekündigt werden.
(2) 1Für eine Kündigung durch den Arbeitgeber beträgt die Kündigungsfrist, wenn das Arbeitsverhältnis in dem Betrieb oder Unternehmen
1.
zwei Jahre bestanden hat, einen Monat zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
2.
fünf Jahre bestanden hat, zwei Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
3.
acht Jahre bestanden hat, drei Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
4.
zehn Jahre bestanden hat, vier Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
5.
zwölf Jahre bestanden hat, fünf Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
6.
15 Jahre bestanden hat, sechs Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats,
7.
20 Jahre bestanden hat, sieben Monate zum Ende eines Kalendermonats.
2Bei der Berechnung der Beschäftigungsdauer werden Zeiten, die vor der Vollendung des 25. Lebensjahrs des Arbeitnehmers liegen, nicht berücksichtigt.
(3) Während einer vereinbarten Probezeit, längstens für die Dauer von sechs Monaten, kann das Arbeitsverhältnis mit einer Frist von zwei Wochen gekündigt werden.
(4) 1Von den Absätzen 1 bis 3 abweichende Regelungen können durch Tarifvertrag vereinbart werden. 2Im Geltungsbereich eines solchen Tarifvertrags gelten die abweichenden tarifvertraglichen Bestimmungen zwischen nicht tarifgebundenen Arbeitgebern und Arbeitnehmern, wenn ihre Anwendung zwischen ihnen vereinbart ist.
(5) 1Einzelvertraglich kann eine kürzere als die in Absatz 1 genannte Kündigungsfrist nur vereinbart werden,
1.
wenn ein Arbeitnehmer zur vorübergehenden Aushilfe eingestellt ist; dies gilt nicht, wenn das Arbeitsverhältnis über die Zeit von drei Monaten hinaus fortgesetzt wird;
2.
wenn der Arbeitgeber in der Regel nicht mehr als 20 Arbeitnehmer ausschließlich der zu ihrer Berufsbildung Beschäftigten beschäftigt und die Kündigungsfrist vier Wochen nicht unterschreitet.
2Bei der Feststellung der Zahl der beschäftigten Arbeitnehmer sind teilzeitbeschäftigte Arbeitnehmer mit einer regelmäßigen wöchentlichen Arbeitszeit von nicht mehr als 20 Stunden mit 0,5 und nicht mehr als 30 Stunden mit 0,75 zu berücksichtigen. 3Die einzelvertragliche Vereinbarung längerer als der in den Absätzen 1 bis 3 genannten Kündigungsfristen bleibt hiervon unberührt.
(6) Für die Kündigung des Arbeitsverhältnisses durch den Arbeitnehmer darf keine längere Frist vereinbart werden als für die Kündigung durch den Arbeitgeber.
i germany, you can't fire someone who is sick. and a lawyer i recently used said in germany, for every law, there are other laws that contradict it, you just have to find someone smart enough to find the loophole.
QUOTE (leylah @ Jun 12 2008, 10:32 pm)
... i germany, you can't fire someone who is sick ...
Of course you can ...
not while the person is ill. i spoke briefly with a labor lawyer today.
is it too late for him to join ver.di?
I have been one medical leave for 5 weeks and a few days after I had a surgery. And as far as I know the company has to pay full salary for the first 6 weeks, THEN the insurance picks it up for 80 percent.
I once had flu so bad I was off over six weeks.
Your income DOES drop a bit as the kasse pays you after then at X %.
But cos you can't be out clubbing and sniffing baking power off Corrinne Schumacher's tits anyway, it' not a big deal, innit.
Your income DOES drop a bit as the kasse pays you after then at X %.
But cos you can't be out clubbing and sniffing baking power off Corrinne Schumacher's tits anyway, it' not a big deal, innit.
QUOTE (sarabyrd @ Jun 12 2008, 9:52 pm)
It's the company's problem if they gave this other guy a permy job while your husband was still on sick leave and likely to return in the near future. Dig your heels in and consult a lawyer.
the fact that he employed someone permanently to take on your husband jobs means he has landed himself right in the shithole (the boss that is). If the new guy is really on a permanent contract you have little to worry about in terms of winning a lawsuit.
that makes me feel a whole lot better. and i did talk to a lawyer today. he basically has said the same thing. i was really angry and upset yesterday, but now i feel a whole lot better. i think they are trying to take advantage of my husband because he's an ossi and they think, since he's not a neo-nazi, he's not assertive enough to fight the system. but they've forgotten that he has an american wife.
And a multi-national support system
QUOTE (Aschaffenburgboy @ Jun 13 2008, 12:49 am)
I have been one medical leave for 5 weeks and a few days after I had a surgery. And as far as I know the company has to pay full salary for the first 6 weeks, THEN the insurance picks it up for 80 percent.
i think maybe how much the krankenkasse pays depends on which one you have. we have barmer. they pay 90% of net income.
You are viewing a low fidelity version of this page. Click to view the full page.