Is racism in our genes or do we learn it?

Saw this in "Der Spiegel" today: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,556375,00.html

Where do these kids get it from?

Did they learn it from their parents who suffered under apartheid and now just reflect it. Or is that a natural thing?

Malibongwe: Das ist nicht schwer. Die haben andere Frisuren, sie sind anders angezogen, und wir fragen sie einfach, was Ellenbogen auf Xosa heißt?

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Warum das?

Malibongwe: Weil in der Xosa-Sprache für das Wort Ellenbogen ein Gluckslaut drin ist, den sie nicht sprechen können, und daran erkennt man sie.

The way that kids argues is almost word for word what a young neonazi in Germany or UK would say...

You might struggle to get too many responses to a German language posting on here.

The answer is we all have an internal programming to look after those closes to us. We protect the others in our tribe.

Humans have developed all sorts of ways of spotting people 'close' to us. Probably the most obvious being accents and languages. Accents are fascinating as we really do feel more comfortable with somebody who talks with the same accent as us and we'll instantly trust them more.

Go anywhere in the world and hear somebody who sounds like 'us'. I all but guarantee that if you are in an exotic location where there are not others of your 'tribe' you will speak to them.

The same goes with hate though. We distrust people further away from us culturally. Almost all conflict in the world is where peoples of greater cultural difference come into contact.

It is most definitely not in your genes. You learn it from racist parents and family and friends.

Funny though that this happens in Jo'burg and they are killing people from neighboring Zimbabwe.

The language thing is something all peoples do to each other. Even in the bible: remember the shibboleth?

All neighbors and not people from far away places!

It is all learned behavior. We are hard wired to look out for danger, but we don't know what danger is until we are taught or learn it from experience. Different isn't a danger signal in and of itself.

But Africa and Tribalism seem to go hand in hand.

As I understand it we're hard wired to take as many short cuts in making decisions as possible. Hence the quick trust of people who sound like us.

One of the things I did on Inter cultural training at work was the concept of 'suspending judgement'. I.E. not going with your gut reaction but trying to see the person rather than your programming.

Hard to do but interesting as well once you start to watch people and how quickly they jump to conclusions.

Your old dude! This shit is taught to you from birth to 5 or 6 years old. After that, you need re-training. It is like imprinting.

You think so?

Kids in kindergarten don't seem to suffer from racism. By the time they get a bit older and work out they are 'different' the problems seem to start.

Kids in kindergarten already know different and ask about it. It is the answers they get that teach them the right way or the wrong way!

So would a person raised in isolation trust everybody or nobody?

Subject of many a movie from Tarzan to The Jungle Book. Of course trust is different than hating now isn't it?

You learn to be a bit cautious around 'foreign' as part of growing up however as a child my family used to drag me on longish camping holidays around around Europe so I was fairly used to meeting people from other European countries and the fact they didn't eat me.

There were no blacks/coloured that I met until I was about 9 or 10 (I grew up a long time ago in the south of England) and when it was my father asked to put up a guest from Ghana. It was probably my first black. He looked different but he didn't look like a monkey or scare me, in fact he spoke English quite well.

Later in the UK we had the influx of Ex-Ugandan Asians and a lot more non-whites around (they were here before but in London and further north).

I can honestly say that although we may be apprehensive of foreigners, prejudice is most definitely learned. Maybe my parents were prejudiced but with very few actual non-Europeans around, yhere was nothing for me as a kid to pick up on.

Having kids of my own now, it is definitely clear that kids can absorb attitudes very, very quickly and even without explicit teaching. As Russians, they are also subject to prejudice in Germany which why we try to educate them as well as possible. It is much harder to talk about a stupid, lazy person when that person has a good degree and holding down a decent job.

True. I was actually just looking up Feral Children for that reason. Fortunately there are few cases of it.

I'd agree the hate that we learn from our parents and other trust figures. 'I hate the French/Man U/Catholics/Muslims/Blue Eyed Children' is learned. They teach 'Us' who 'Us' is initially.

Group identity and the breaking of it is the key to resolving conflict but there seems something deeply programmed in the need to be part of 'Us' groups.

A need for security is programmed, but how that is expressed is something entirely different. We are taught to "need" to be in a group. Advertisers take advantage of this quite well. You have to be with the "in" crowd! If you are brought up strong and independent, you don't fall into those traps as easily as the "weak" and "fearful". Just look at the homophobia in quite a few "uber" males! They fear their own feelings because they want to be a part of "us" as defined by their uber peers!

You really think so? We're pretty well all vulnerable. When it all goes completely wrong being 'strong' and 'independent' doesn't get you too far.

The Third Wave

Not really, in fact in most cases of demonstrated racist acts, it is because the aggressor is 'blaming' the person for the 'good degree and the decent job'. But I agree too that racism is more 'learnt' and is a quick outlet for our feelings when our position as 'special' is threatened at some level.

I personally object to the word racism. Race doesn't really exist and it doesn't really explain what happens. Is there really any difference between somebody hating somebody because they are Catholic and somebody else hating somebody because they are black? They are all hate crimes.

Racist I am not, but I only hate Catholic's like the Pope who is racist, sexist and a complete ass that does damage in the name of a false Deity!

I agree with all of that. However is he responsible for that or is it just the teaching of his parents and other power figures.

I actually don't hate the pope, even though I describe him and other religious leaders, as doing evil. We will all do evil if the conditions exist. This is what that third wave article demonstrates and many other psychological 'experiments'. I hate the religions themselves not the peoples involved. Otherwise it would be like saying I hate all Americans because of what the current administration is doing.

Well I'm glad we've solved the nature nuture debate without any of that pesky evidence or justification for definitive findings.

I'm firmly in the Pas camp that there is a biological element to racism, at least a predispostion that when raised in the right (or wrong in this case) environment can lead to racism.

The brain automatically identifies and groups things into similar and different. Now what you do with those things in the different category, whether you develop a fear or a hatred toward that category is learned but the groundwork for identifying and categorizing is already there. It is an innate response to treat things that are novel and different with some mistrust, you see it in all species and with good reason (things that look the same as me are probably not going to eat me). Skin colour or fur colour is a blurry area as most animals don't rely on colour to differentiate, many are even colour blind.

You hate what you fear, and you fear what you don't understand. People from different cultures are obviously unfamiliar, easily leading to the development of racism.

America being a culture of fear, it is easy to understand why they continue to have such horrible problems of racism.

I wouldn't call Germans that racist, but I would say a bit xenophobic, which is often misconstrued as racism.

Canada on the other hand is a multi-cultural buffet. We're quite used to people of all walks of life, and though most ethnic groups tend to stick together, there is general acceptance and tolerance amongst them all. We're even so accustomed to it now, that what americans would call "racist jokes", we just call funny. It's an acceptance and celebration of differences. I don't expect to get shot if I call an Italian hairy, or if he calls me white bread. it's all a good laugh. I laugh when the black people call me a cracker... i say good one and offer him fried chicken.

and so on.

I would never say that racism is in the genes. that's a bad excuse more than anything.

Its true, everyone in Canada holds hands and sings kumbaya, they just have to make sure they do it in two languages so they dont have the OQLF on their asses.

Seriously though, alot of Canada may be like that, but people in Toronto may beg to differ. IMO Human beings are naturally inclined towards forming groups or cliques, its an instinct. The social aspect is how we form these groups - nations, races, sexes, political beliefs, moral beliefs, etc. etc. Its not limited to one society and no society is magically exempt from human nature.

There's plenty of racism in Canada.

What are you talking aboot?

Like I say, the different groups generally stick to themselves (multi-racial friend circles are not that common), but there is no animosity between them (maybe amongst teenage dudes who are trying to show off their balls). For example, should I hate someone for liking their food spicy? No, but it doesn't mean I like my food that way. So I hang out with the meat and potatoes people. Eat whatever the feck you want, doesn't bother me.

Yes, we all sing kumbaya. I'm sure they taught you that in school. But I can talk about this later -- my igloo is melting in this heat and I gotta go plug it back in.

@ eleanor rigby - there's racism everywhere, but I wouldn't say canada is even close to being famous for it.

Sure comparitively speaking Canada is probably one of the better ones but to incinuate as you did in your first post that Canada doesn't have it's problems with Racism is completely wrong. One look at the prejudice most people have against the Native Indians blows that assumption to pieces.

So you think fear is not genetic?

are instincts genetic?

Of course they are.

We come out of the box with them so I would think so.

Racism is genetic.
Then this tendency is further supported by our environment, which further influences our Genes.
It is a cycle that cannot be broken, without external help.

There is a great deal of evidence that racism and other forms of negative discrimination towards those who are obviously not of your own ethnicity has a strong biological basis. This is part of a general trend in how humans feel about each other depending on how closely they are related and/or interact. If your sister dies of cancer, that's a tragedy; if 100 people are killed in an ambush in southern Africa then you may acknowledge it is tragic for some but it's generally hard to get too emotional about the issue unless you have ties to the area or the individuals involved. We care deeply about our families, our friends and to some extent acquaintances, and then after that there are huge swathes of humanity we tend to characterize as "not part of my society or culture". Fighting with outsiders such as these has been extremely commonplace throughout recorded history and we have evidence to believe since the dawn of sentient humans as well.

Given the long history of warfare and fighting amongst human tribes, it is no surprise that modern humans have deep-rooted suspicions of those who are obviously not of their own background. If someone does not speak your language or looks substantially different, then that once served as a shortcut to "this person may be dangerous, or at least unpredictable" . Look at the tribes of Papau New Guinea - the small groups and tribes that still live in the highland valleys there are notoriously xenophobic, and given the frequency of violence, murder and raiding there they have good reason to be. Similar patterns are seen in hunter-gatherer societies the world over, and not so long ago most of the human species was organized this way (conservatively, we have only had agriculture and hence dense population densities for around 13k years). This instinct is not so useful anymore in big cities and modern societies, but we still have it and will have for the foreseeable future, because genetic change moves at a glacial pace compared to social change.

Now, my argument should be read to mean "we have racist _tendencies_ in our genes", because genes that result in humans who avoid or deal cautiously with those likely to be potential enemies are good for our survival. This does not mean multicultural societies are impossible or unworkable - my home country of Australia is fairly successful in this regard - but it requires effective integration of newcomers into the economy and social life of the country is very necessary. This usually requires language proficiency and I'm a big fan of this sort of thing, because in the long term it's in the interest of both the newcomers and the society that accepts them.

Incidentally, having just moved to Germany to be with my German girlfriend, I'm trying to do just this - learning German, working here and interacting with Germans. Can't say it's always easy!

A lot of Germans seem racist towards the Turks. Shame really, because they do make really good kebabs. My ex-girlfriend was half English and half Turkish. She went with her family once to see a football match between England and Turkey at Wembly, and she told me that in the English stand they were chanting "I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk". Bit harsh. IMO though, racisim in the UK has shifted from the kind of racism associated with skin colour, to the kind that is associated with religion i.e. Indians generally get better press for being Hindus than Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who are Muslim, for example. I still think though the UK is ahead of every country in Europe for tollerance. That comes from more and longer exposure to minorities within many of its cities.

yeah, absolutely no racism in Australia against the blacks and wogs, eh?

I vaguely remember in my history course learning that the old desert tribes had no trouble welcoming travellers to their oasis, since they knew those folks were just passing through and didn't pose a real threat to their water supplies. Neighbouring tribes, however, were often hated and killed on sight since they were seen as real competition for the scarce water. Battles and wars were fought not with strangers, but with neighbours.

Doesn't that thinking still apply? You are less likely to have strong opinions about people you've never met and know little about. It is your neighbours, or people that you have come to know that you develop strong feeling about.

How many of us have any particular likes or dislikes about those isolated Amazon tribes? Do you think of them as lazy bums or highly educated or most likely don't really think much at all about them since they play no role in your daily life. Now think about the folks you see and interact with every day. Those are the people about whom you are most likely to have strong feelings.

We generalise based on our own experiences. If the family down the street is horrible, and they are the only family of that race/class/colour/whatever that you have had contact with, then you might suppose that "they" are all like that. But if they are great folks, then you might be more likely to be favourably inclined when meeting another example of that group.

I guess I'm more in the "racism is learned" camp rather than thinking of it as being inherent from birth.

The phrase "fairly successful" does not imply complete perfection, genius. Given that about 25% of Australia are born overseas and some 40% have at least one parent born overseas, the notable economic success of Australian immigrants and our social cohesion is something to be proud of and if you want examples of how people can overcome racist instincts at a social level then you can certainly do far worse. No society is free of problems with integration of immigrants, but given your demonstrated lack of reading comprehension I'm not going to try to explain Australia's to you.

Erm , it's the natives that have the problem in Australia. The immigrants do rather well.

Aboriginals make up something like 1.5% of the Australian population and are concentrated in remote regions, so the admittedly common racist attitudes towards Aborigines are not really indicative of attitudes towards the vast majority of immigrants/foreigners in Australia. I agree with you that Aborigines have a pretty terrible lot (far worse than an average citizen on all important measures), but many of the problems are sadly of their own making (violence, drinking, unemployment are all endemic in Aboriginal communities) and are proving resistant to outside help - hardly solely the fault of racist attitudes. Even still, there has been some progress recently with the prime minister's apology for what the Aborigines have suffered over the last 200 years (which you may be aware of if you follow Australia's news even intermittently) and a new focus has come onto helping our Aborigines with their problems, and I hope we start to see some real progress soon.

What was the story about Canada's residential schools, again?


And who was it that introduced them to alcohol? If England had been colonised by foreigners who had introduced the natives to heroin, would the natives have been to blame for becoming violent and unemployable junkies?

He was making a joke, lets not get too excited now.

situation worked on, http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/rqpi/index-eng.asp

the schools shut down long ago, and restitution is being made to those.

and CBC did a great report on it http://archives.cbc.ca/society/education/topics/692/

My jeans don't like Mexicans, racist bastards.

Bipa - I think racism is indeed learned to some extent, as with most things. But when you see a characteristic behavior that appears in all cultures and all societies, and given our knowledge of the power of evolution to shape human characteristics, it is interesting to think on the ways evolution could have shaped us (writers such as Mathew Ridley, Richard Dawkins and Stephen Pinker have interesting things to say on this, if you are interested). In this case, I believe the tendency towards racism (and other kinds of hostility towards those who are unfamilar or in some way odd, such as homosexuals) is a evolved characteristic that can remain largely suppressed in the right conditions and set a society on fire with xenophobia in the worst.

To use your example of those Amazonian tribes in another way to illustrate my point - while they remain abstractions you and most would not feel unfriendly towards them, or indeed care much about them dady-to-day other than wish their way of life continues uninterrupted. Imagine though that their village is logged and some of their community immigrate to your town, eventually forming a solid minority that is perceived to be unwilling to mix with wider society, has customs that are different or even a bit repugnant and either does not speak German/English or does so only poorly and reluctantly. You and others might perceive them in a less friendly light then, despite (and this is key) the complete lack of negative impact their presence has on your life in any real sense. Now, that is obviously a simple example but is intended to show how fragile our sense of goodwill towards strangers can be, especially when they have some collectively notable characteristics such as skin color to mark them out and allow them to be collectively classified either positively or negatively.

Ah, spending too much time online today, think I'll go play basketball instead!

If those isolated Amazonians move to my town, then they are now my neighbours. They have become my direct competition for scarce resources: food, water, shelter, jobs or taking my money via social assistance from taxes that I pay. Having a direct impact on my daily life, I will develop much stronger feelings about them once they are in my community. I will get to know them either personally, or through their direct effect on my society and thus learn to either like them or dislike them, or even hate them if they sacrifice or eat my pet dogs (dumb example)

So your argument seems to bolster my thoughts that racism is more of a learned process rather than inherently in our genes from birth, doesn't it?

Modern-day racist attitudes are not the same thing as historical responsibility for past wrongs, and nobody is arguing that alcohol and European diseases were a disaster for our Aborigines. However, if you want to imply that all the problems of Aborigines of the modern day are largely caused by the introduction of alcohol, I'd point out that the vast majority of societies can deal with it without near-total collapse as has happened to the Aborigines, and this should tip you off that there is a lot more to the issue. This is getting off-topic though so I'll not pursue it further.


Perhaps it was the lack of funniness that made it seem like a factual contribution. At any rate, I'm not too excited and I'm sure he's not crying in his beer at my e-opinion either.

On the contrary, although it's a good point it can be turned to strengthen my point. Serious racism (violence, ridicule, discrimination) is rarely directed against people far away, but those who are nearby. Your average racist could care less about what non-whites do so long as they're not in their country. The key thing here is that racists dislike immigrants/blacks/whites/asians because of their status as a visible minority in their community who is both identifiable and different in ways that unsettle or anger them and that are rarely of real significance. They stereotype based on an easily identifiable characteristic, such as skin color or language skills, and consider them inherently disgusting in a way that is not dependent on logic for their strength of feeling.

To address the "direct competitors" argument - if it was only or largely about the fact that immigrants are competitors for scarce resources, why are you not equally hostile to everyone in your city that you do not know or directly interact with? They are also competitors, and given they speak the language perfectly and have no factors that disqualify them for jobs you might occupy they are actually more effective competitors than an relatively disadvantaged immigrant would be. So why don't racists hate them?

Hogwash! Survival instincts are not based on racism! Racism is a purely learned trait. Put 3yo's of all colors and nationalities together in a room alone and they will interact with one another with almost no hesitation. Put teenagers in a room and they will congregate in corners based on behavior patterns learned since 3yo. Genes are not racist!

Next time you hear a little kid say, "my father says you're a nigger because you're black" splain to me what genes did that!

Rumors of a mystery tape showing Michelle Obama “Ranting And Raving Against Whitey� in Trinty United Church of Christ are circulating across the internet and cable news.

Roger Stone -- alleged "Whitey" tape



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